Fear is the root of All suffering

[Orion]

To some extent. However, all action is predicated on moving from a state of less satisfaction to one which offers more satisfaction. To put it bluntly, without that mechanism we would just sit there and die. It is the mind that thinks, right/wrong, stop/go, good/bad, punishment/reward which has been created in an unnatural state. We have free will which gives us moral guidance, but it has been truncated and it's allegiance moved to support a political/economic/education system in which the state is the arbiter of all morality freeing us from the need to think. It is the state which says what is right and wrong, good/bad, stop/go and the state which punishes or rewards. We no longer think for ourselves in the way we once did and are suffering for it.

 

What the animal body desires to do for survival is not the same as the ego that desires to be enlightened, or peaceful, or whatever. An ego that is trying to "get to stillness" is merely a layer on top of Stillness. I capitalize it because Stillness is always there, even when you're in a raging traffic jam on the highway. Stillness never leaves. If you're trying to be still, then you're just Stillness watching yourself trying to achieve stillness.

 

Animals are perfect examples of this. They don't concern themselves with past or present, or what happens when they die, or being enough, or "how do I get to peace" or "stillness". They just are.

 

What you don't realize is that you're no different than that animal, you just have an ego layer that is trying to do things. You're always doing stuff as that present awareness, but most people have the added meditation of "I am this", or "I'm doing it". It's just a narrative on top of total nothingness. There's no you doing anything.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Orion

[Karl]

What the animal body desires to do for survival is not the same as the ego that desires to be enlightened, or peaceful, or whatever. An ego that is trying to "get to stillness" is merely a layer on top of Stillness. I capitalize it because Stillness is always there, even when you're in a raging traffic jam on the highway. Stillness never leaves. If you're trying to be still, then you're just Stillness watching yourself trying to achieve stillness.

 

Animals are perfect examples of this. They don't concern themselves with past or present, or what happens when they die, or being enough, or "how do I get to peace" or "stillness". They just are.

 

What you don't realize is that you're no different than that animal, you just have an ego layer that is trying to do things. You're always doing stuff as that present awareness, but most people have the added meditation of "I am this", or "I'm doing it". It's just a narrative on top of total nothingness. There's no you doing anything.

 

You have it distorted. Man is the animal that reasons. You have become enmeshed in falsehoods that have bypassed your reasoning faculty and become embedded directly in the subconscious. You are eschewing identity and subordinating yourself to rulers. It's a process by which the individual is reduced to a slave with the function of serving 'the greater good' or whatever thing the word weavers have conjured up this time. You are something, you are an individual with defined identity don't let that go.

[Stosh]

Yes, the distinction is subtle but all things are connected to the same thing. Everything is causality. So you notice certain...symptoms I suppose you might say. You wouldn't know suffering if you didn't have the concept 'to suffer'. Yet, have you ever defined the concept ? Look at every bit of assumed information that you carelessly impinge on your conscious awareness. Is suffering the same as pain ? Do you really 'suffer' pain, or is it just pain? Make that distinction.

Yep, we suffer mentally about pain too, and can make it worse than just plain ol pain, and so I agree we are talking about two things that connect. ,, Suffering though is felt in the present about the present state, while fear ,is felt in the present about the future state. This is why suffering must be the root of the fear and not the other way around. .....,If the fear came first without suffering it would have nothing to instigate it, nor would it be a result of extrapolating about an unpleasant potential future state of being.

[Karl]

Yep, we suffer mentally about pain too, and can make it worse than just plain ol pain, and so I agree we are talking about two things that connect. ,, Suffering though is felt in the present about the present state, while fear ,is felt in the present about the future state. This is why suffering must be the root of the fear and not the other way around. .....,If the fear came first without suffering it would have nothing to instigate it, nor would it be a result of extrapolating about an unpleasant potential future state of being.

You can have plain old fear too, not just plain old pain. Fear is most definitely based on the future outcome which is quite correct. So fear can arise and no suffering is present. Suffering always indicates a contradiction in conceptual understanding and so it can also be the cause of Fear, but it isn't necessarily a prerequisite of fear.

 

It's fairly easy to sort this one out. When irrational fear is present then look for the cause, it will always be seen as two distinct concepts in conflict. Acknowledge the conflict, resolve the contradiction and the irrational fear vanishes like magic.

 

So fear is present in fight or flight. Do I run from this lion or remain still ? If I choose to run, then how far do I run, in what direction, can I outrun the lion, is it catching me. There is no suffering, just fear.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Karl

[Marblehead]

 Is suffering the same as pain ?

No.  Two different concepts.

[Karl]

No.  Two different concepts.

 

This is also as I understand it, but how do others define those two concepts ? Do they see them as one ?

[Marblehead]

This is also as I understand it, but how do others define those two concepts ? Do they see them as one ?

I had that discussion here a while back and there was no agreement.

 

However, I still hold to my current understanding.  That is, pain is physical and suffering is mental (psychological).

[Karl]

I had that discussion here a while back and there was no agreement.

 

However, I still hold to my current understanding.  That is, pain is physical and suffering is mental (psychological).

 

Well, I certainly won't be arguing with that assertion.

[Brian]

You have it distorted. Man is the animal that reasons. You have become enmeshed in falsehoods that have bypassed your reasoning faculty and become embedded directly in the subconscious. You are eschewing identity and subordinating yourself to rulers. It's a process by which the individual is reduced to a slave with the function of serving 'the greater good' or whatever thing the word weavers have conjured up this time. You are something, you are an individual with defined identity don't let that go.

You continually assert as fact that the human animal is the only one with advanced cognitive abilities. We have long known otherwise, and scientists would tell you so if only you would listen.

 

Start here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cognition-animal

[thelerner]

is desire the opposite of fear?  Yet also its twin?  Like the ends of a magnet?

 

with both, its wise to acknowledge them, understand they can have a good purpose and find ways to deal with them skillfully so they're allies not addictions. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by thelerner

[Karl]

You continually assert as fact that the human animal is the only one with advanced cognitive abilities. We have long known otherwise, and scientists would tell you so if only you would listen.

Start here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cognition-animal

 

Not exactly Brian. Animals don't communicate with us and show no ability in conceptual transfer. It's not impossible that they could not develop reasoning, but for the moment they don't exhibit it. That they have higher cognitive function isn't really controversial. My point anyway is that we do have reasoning ability, we aren't animals, there is no need for conjecture and so if we have it, then we should use it. If we don't, I suspect it's disuse will become permanent.

[Brian]

Not exactly Brian. Animals don't communicate with us and show no ability in conceptual transfer. It's not impossible that they could not develop reasoning, but for the moment they don't exhibit it. That they have higher cognitive function isn't really controversial. My point anyway is that we do have reasoning ability, we aren't animals, there is no need for conjecture and so if we have it, then we should use it. If we don't, I suspect it's disuse will become permanent.

LOL

 

Of course animals communicate with us, Karl. Even my Down-syndrome-like pug does.

 

You didn't even bother to click that link, did you?

 

Seriously, you should get a dog...

[Karl]

LOL

Of course animals communicate with us, Karl. Even my Down-syndrome-like pug does.

You didn't even bother to click that link, did you?

Seriously, you should get a dog...

 

Yes I clicked it. I think we are on a very different wavelength if you think you can have a rational conversation with a dog. I'm not even sure Dr Doolittle got that far. Animals have intelligence and instinct but those things can exist without higher level reasoning ability. A dog can be trained to do all kinds of brilliant things-guide dogs, search and rescue, sheep, hunting etc but all these things are instinctive to a dog in a pack that has the ability to hunt, fight, mate, defend, lead, organise etc. Indeed many very successful humans show tremendous cunning and intelligence but very little application of reason. Use it or lose it.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yes I clicked it. I think we are on a very different wavelength if you think you can have a rational conversation with a dog. I'm not even sure Dr Doolittle got that far. Animals have intelligence and instinct but those things can exist without higher level reasoning ability. A dog can be trained to do all kinds of brilliant things-guide dogs, search and rescue, sheep, hunting etc but all these things are instinctive to a dog in a pack that has the ability to hunt, fight, mate, defend, lead, organise etc. Indeed many very successful humans show tremendous cunning and intelligence but very little application of reason. Use it or lose it.

[Brian]

LOL

 

No, my pug doesn't speak English but I don't hold that against him as I haven't learned to speak pug, either. Honestly, he isn't very smart, as dogs go, and we struggle to communicate with sounds and gestures.

 

Considerably different experience than with the Feist we had several years ago -- smartest dog I ever met. She lived to be 19 and was brighter than many humans I've met. Had a vocabulary of about a hundred words or so (hard to estimate) and a great sense of humor -- loved dog jokes. She loved puzzles, too. Learned how to tell time (only with a digital clock, mind you) and figured out how to use a remote control to turn on the TV. (Her favorite show seemed to be the cartoon "King of the Hill," for some reason...)

 

Dog after that was a hound (some sort of beagle-esque mix) we got from a no-kill shelter. Not nearly as bright as the Feist but smarter than the average dog. The first say we brought him home, my wife gave him a bowl of food -- the dry type you put warm water on to make a gravy. He immediately picked the bowl up by the edge, tipped his head to pour the water out, put the bowl back down and barked once at my wife (a long, howling, baying noise which was his bark). He then proceeded to eat. We realized that he preferred it without water (duh) and never served it that way again.

 

[Brian]

Do y'all have that bumper sticker on your side of the Pond about minds and parachutes?

[Karl]

Do y'all have that bumper sticker on your side of the Pond about minds and parachutes?

 

I definitely wouldn't draw an analogy between minds and parachutes. They have nothing in common, but that's -even jokingly-just how easy it is to be lead astray. Same with a positive mindset. There is a lot of things that tell you to accept what is being said. I used to be in that group. I was usually the one saying it. Not any more, those days are long gone. My mind is open the rational explanations and well reasoned arguments. Logic is my bouncer. Come dressed in trainers and shorts and you don't get in :-)

 

 

[Brian]

If it helps you sleep at night.

 

 

Tiger go to eat,

Bird got to fly...

[Marblehead]

I just watched a movie:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Admiral:_Roaring_Currents

 

And as the Admiral is preparing his men to defend Korea a statement that caught me was (paraphrase)

 

The men are filled with fear.  The challenge is to convert that fear into courage and then let the courage grow upon itself.

[Stosh]

KARL <

 

You can have plain old fear too, not just plain old pain. Fear is most definitely based on the future outcome which is quite correct. So fear can arise and no suffering is present. Suffering always indicates a contradiction in conceptual understanding and so it can also be the cause of Fear, but it isn't necessarily a prerequisite of fear. 

It's fairly easy to sort this one out. When irrational fear is present then look for the cause, it will always be seen as two distinct concepts in conflict. Acknowledge the conflict, resolve the contradiction and the irrational fear vanishes like magic.

 

I'd like to see this magic. This sounds like modern psych training , which doesn't appear to work worth a fig. I'm thinking it doesn't work for phobias most of the time,( or at least it takes years of therapy for some ), which are 'irrational'.. and then there are rational fears like dreading a visit to the in-laws because they anger and embarrass you. 

 

So what contradiction in conceptual understanding is there if I am concerned about walking on slick rocks at the beach.  

The basis is rational, it would be a nasty scrape and break of leg, my concern about it is elevated though. I reeally don't want to bust an ankle on those slimy barnacle toothed rocks , , but its not a thing that has ever happened to me. 

 

BTW  The sensation of fear can be caused with chems , and I think we can leave those out Yes? were talking about irrational or rational brain processes right? 

Edited August 24, 2015 by Stosh

[Karl]

KARL <

 

You can have plain old fear too, not just plain old pain. Fear is most definitely based on the future outcome which is quite correct. So fear can arise and no suffering is present. Suffering always indicates a contradiction in conceptual understanding and so it can also be the cause of Fear, but it isn't necessarily a prerequisite of fear. 

It's fairly easy to sort this one out. When irrational fear is present then look for the cause, it will always be seen as two distinct concepts in conflict. Acknowledge the conflict, resolve the contradiction and the irrational fear vanishes like magic.

 

I'd like to see this magic. This sounds like modern psych training , which doesn't appear to work worth a fig. I'm thinking it doesn't work for phobias most of the time,( or at least it takes years of therapy for some ), which are 'irrational'.. and then there are rational fears like dreading a visit to the in-laws because they anger and embarrass you. 

 

So what contradiction in conceptual understanding is there if I am concerned about walking on slick rocks at the beach.  

The basis is rational, it would be a nasty scrape and break of leg, my concern about it is elevated though. I reeally don't want to bust an ankle on those slimy barnacle toothed rocks , , but its not a thing that has ever happened to me. 

 

BTW  The sensation of fear can be caused with chems , and I think we can leave those out Yes? were talking about irrational or rational brain processes right? 

 

I see why you would think that. Having a phobia isn't necessarily suffering. The suffering comes from "if I didn't have this phobia/ because I have this phobia/ I shouldn't have this phobia"

 

You would naturally be wary of walking on slippery rocks, or standing on the edge of a cliff.

 

I was often asked if I could cure vertigo. Mostly it wasn't a case of vertigo at all, but a rational fear of high places. I even know I fighter pilot that is terrified of heights. Vertigo becomes an issue if an occupation requires working at height, but for most it's just easier just to avoid the trigger.

 

I worked with a woman who had a bird phobia and it prevented her from going on holiday with friends- she wanted to go to Venice and was terrified of birds in St Marks square. It was very easy to rid her of that phobia because she was patently desperate to go. The work took less than 20 minutes and she picked up a bird with a broken wing the very next day. This was her own cure, I had just facilitated the decision. She resolved the internal conflict- 'it's stopping me going and making me miserable as I will miss out'.

 

Suffering is the thought that you shouldn't be having the thought, that things should be different than they are.

 

 

[Kubba]

Thanks!!

[Stosh]

I see why you would think that. Having a phobia isn't necessarily suffering. The suffering comes from "if I didn't have this phobia/ because I have this phobia/ I shouldn't have this phobia" You would naturally be wary of walking on slippery rocks, or standing on the edge of a cliff. I was often asked if I could cure vertigo. Mostly it wasn't a case of vertigo at all, but a rational fear of high places. I even know I fighter pilot that is terrified of heights. Vertigo becomes an issue if an occupation requires working at height, but for most it's just easier just to avoid the trigger. I worked with a woman who had a bird phobia and it prevented her from going on holiday with friends- she wanted to go to Venice and was terrified of birds in St Marks square. It was very easy to rid her of that phobia because she was patently desperate to go. The work took less than 20 minutes and she picked up a bird with a broken wing the very next day. This was her own cure, I had just facilitated the decision. She resolved the internal conflict- 'it's stopping me going and making me miserable as I will miss out'. Suffering is the thought that you shouldn't be having the thought, that things should be different than they are.

You keep bypassing my direct questions Karl, I have reasons for asking them , mainly to keep us on the same page. 

You are creating an artificial division between the relevance of rational concerns and fears vs the twisted rationale of phobias, which is unwarranted because the OP is that the root of ALL suffering is fears, which I am contesting ,, in favor of suffering being caused by mental state and fears being a projection into the future about that suffering.

That the lady overcame the circular reaction scheme of her phobia ,( a mental state promoting fear which compounded the undesirable emotional state ) is fine and good , yes she resolved her conflict enough, but it wasn't because someone pointed out to her the silliness of her bird fear. I'm sure a hundred other folks told her it was stupid as well long before this trip came up.  

Suffering may indeed sometimes be due to upset over the appropriateness of ones thoughts ,, but that doesn't prove or disprove the idea that the suffering is due to a fear with no cause VS fear being allocated to associations of suffering which happen due to External cause. 

[Jetsun]

The root of fear arises from feeling separate, so there is an isolated vulnerable me here and all that threatening non-me stuff out there. Which is in essence an illusion or a mistaken position to take because separation arises from mistakenly believing that you have a individual self. Which is why some say ignorance is the cause of both suffering and fear.

 

(* Not an intellectual ignorance but rather ignorance in the sense of not seeing the core truth of something)

[Marblehead]

The root of the weeds are in the soil.