Fear is the root of All suffering

[Marblehead]

I am suffering as I fear I have eaten too many roots.

[Brian]

Why can't unity be the other way around? Why not everything is concrete reality and that there is no mind/body problem? Then experience and reason are unified, body and mind are unified. Concrete man in a concrete universe is unified. Isn't that just the inverse of everything is unified nothingness- and like you changed, this is what I used to believe.

I see no mind-body problem. I see reality as being "all of it" -- the noumenological as well as the phenomenological, the dual as well as the non-dual, the physical as well as the mental and spiritual, the "logical" as well as the "illogical," matter as "stuff" and matter as probabilistic wave functions, etc.

[Tibetan_Ice]

A Tibetan Story

Milarepa was meditating in his cave when he heard in the distance the ferocious barking of a dog. He knew he was about to have visitors. A terrified deer burst out of the underbrush and froze, not knowing where to run.

 

Milarepa felt deep compassion for this soul whose karma had ripened into the panic of a poor hunted animal. So he began to sing. First he sang about the hopelessness of trying to run from the delusions of the senses. Fear and flight only ensnare more completely. Then he sang of the only refuge: the silence and serenity of the true self.

 

The deer walked to Milarepa and began licking his hands. Milarepa gently patted the deer to comfort it. The deer lay down beside him with her back against Milarepa’s knee.

 

Then the hunting dog burst onto the scene. The red bitch was collared with spikes and her tongue drooled with bloodlust. Her eyes were fiery with ferocity. Her job in life was to hunt down and kill and she was ready to fulfill her mission.

 

But Milarepa took pity on this poor soul whose karma had ripened into the life of a hunting dog. He sang to the dog that anger and violence can never bring true peace and freedom. That enlightenment is the only thing worth hunting for. Without it, a dog could spend eternity in ferocious pursuit of only delusions. Then Milarepa sang of the way to enlightenment.

 

The dog whimpered and cast down her eyes. Slowly she walked to Milarepa and nudged his hand. Milarepa patted the dog on her head and she laid down with her back against the deer.

 

Milarepa knew the dog’s master would arrive soon. The hunter walked proudly out of the underbrush. He was a richly dressed man with an arrogant expression. He had an arrow ready in his bow. He glared at Milarepa.

 

“You’ve bewitched my dog!” the hunter snarled. “You greasy monks multiply like rats around here! No one will notice one less.” With that he fired at Milarepa but the arrow missed its target.

 

“You’ll have plenty of time to shoot me later,” Milarepa said, “but first listen to my song.” Milarepa sang that a human life is more precious than a jewel. But to waste a human life in violence and chasing after pleasures which are only illusions can only cause suffering. What sort of karma was the hunter making for himself? What life could he expect to suffer next? Would he be the deer or the dog? The only pleasure worth chasing is enlightenment, which makes of the entire world a beautiful harmony.

 

While Milarepa sang, the skeptical hunter went into his cave, expecting to find there abundant possessions and enough food for a feast, for that was how many undedicated monks lived, pretending poverty. But the cave of Milarepa was empty. The hunter realized this was no ordinary monk, and certainly no black magician. He saw his ferocious hunting dog resting side by side with the wild deer. His arrows had always hit the mark but he had missed when he shot at Milarepa. The hunter realized he was in the presence of a true master.

 

And so the hunter renounced his life of power and pleasure to study the path with Milarepa.

 

http://spiritualmysteries.com/spirit/a-tibetan-story/

Edited August 26, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Brian]

I'm in the other , the ,,,external reality is inferred , group. But I still don't see where unity comes in, (but don't think you're delusional. )

I'll return tomorrow.

[Marblehead]

I'll return tomorrow.

He is apparently transmutating into nothingness.  Love those cycles though.  Without them we can't get back to where we were.

[Stosh]

 

He is apparently transmutating into nothingness. Love those cycles though. Without them we can't get back to where we were.

Its just so ominous Its kind of like ,Wait till your father gets home... dum da dumm dumm,, Then I had to wait until I heard my given name,,, Jesus Christ !..Get in here!. Edited August 26, 2015 by Stosh

[Karl]

I see no mind-body problem. I see reality as being "all of it" -- the noumenological as well as the phenomenological, the dual as well as the non-dual, the physical as well as the mental and spiritual, the "logical" as well as the "illogical," matter as "stuff" and matter as probabilistic wave functions, etc.

 

Why can't things just be as they are without the complexity of that which they also might be ? You are this, now, then you might be some other if you think it, but then aren't you thinking you might also be some other place than where you are ? Isn't that somewhat like living 'not in the now' but in the 'probable nows' ?

 

It's clearly comfortable for you to live that way otherwise you wouldn't say it, so that's only an observation as I know that would not be comfortable for me. I like solid stuff and I'm happy with its dissolution, but I don't dwell on, or enjoy the dissolution, it's just change and I'm happy to be part of it. I both feel and perceive a unity in that being so for me. I'm a leaf on a tree and I cannot know the whole tree. One day I will fall and turn to dust, that is the cycle and everything else undergoes that same cycle and there is peace enough in knowing that.

[Marblehead]

Yes, asking "What if?" questions is kinda like pissing into the wind.  You get all wet and stinky.

[allinone]

I have good news for you sir.  Unlimited Joy is already available to you by will alone Now. 

 

There is no special clubs to join, no required secret password to chant, and there is nobody else who can do it for you, no matter how impressive the beard or beautiful the poetry. 

 

Lay down your delusions of knowing.  Lay down all unforgiven burdens and choose to forgive all yet unarisen events.  Realize why you deserve your compassion, and choose to appreciate your own perceptions of Now until your shirt is wet with tears of joy, then still continue if you like.  

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

What about the time you are not aware of now?

So it still pertains to cause and effect.

 

Now is simply being mindful. What exactly you do from that point on is up to you to decide. So you can realize the self, then you can merge with it and open a channel in your body, because of the connections what you do above, it also happens below..

 

Its quite hard to maintain now. Its just an explosion and what you maintain is glow or radiation and you can learn to sense it and inspect where it is coming.

 

In my opinion is that you entering the now and then succumb to desire cloud.

[3bob]

Here is another take Bud,

 

Joy does not come by will alone, "but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"

 

(aka - Grace)  otherwise every willful being in the universe would hoard Joy as if it were their private possession.

 

Btw, one can not have this world and eat it to, (so to speak) thus there are only a tiny handful of realized and Joyful Buddha's walking around (as you imply) who btw. are not householders and thus actually or in effect beg for food and need other types of serious support to live in this worldly world which they have renounced.

Edited August 27, 2015 by 3bob

[Brian]

I'm in the other , the ,,,external reality is inferred , group. But I still don't see where unity comes in, (but don't think you're delusional. )

To borrow from Shaman Flowing Hands' gift to us:

 

The Dao begot one,

one gave birth and then there was two.

Two begot three.

And so the Ten Thousand Things were formed.

Chapter 42 -- Dao De Jhing

 

He also tells us:

...The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form.

For the Ten Thousand Things all depend upon it.

Like this space, the Sage can use its formless qualities; for it yields to whatever, or whoever

uses it.

Hold fast to this and remain at one.

Chapter 5

 

And:

The root of Heaven and Earth,

can be found in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries.

The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten

thousand things.

It is ever present and eternal.

Chapter 6

 

Now, I am not a scripturalist by any means but I recognize pith and merit when I see it.

 

The Rig Veda speaks of the universe coming into existence through a word.

 

The puranic cosmogony has a cycle of creation and destruction, punctuated by periods of nonexistence which are as long as the period of existence.

 

The biblical view has the universe coming into existence through a word.

 

Physical cosmology currently includes a number of divergent theories -- variations on a gravitational singularity, brane inflation, loop quantum gravity, spin foam, models in which the "singularity" is Planck-length sized, the Barrett-Crane model, et al. One of the underlying premises in many of these modern approaches, however, is quantum vacuum zero-point energy.

 

What am I getting at? Well, that primal "whatever" remains. The everything/nothing which came before and comes after and fills the spaces between is the absolute reality -- the ten thousands things are manifestations.

 

The "duality" of yin and yang (personally, I see a "triality" of yin, yang and yuan but that's a topic for a different thread) is a manifestation of the one, an effect of the "tearing apart" of "now" into "past" and "future." All the ten thousand things exist in a bubble in the Oneness, centered on "here & now" and formed for the purpose of allowing this manifestation of potential to be experienced. Within the "physical world," the bubble is not apparent because the physical world is that which is inside the bubble.

 

Matching one's impedance or refraction index or frequency (or whatever analog makes sense to you) to that of the essence of the bubble itself makes the bubble become transparent, allowing one to view beyond its boundaries and glimpse the unity beyond, the converged reality in which the illusion of separation doesn't exist. By quiescing the internal dialog and then "listening," one can begin to match impedance with "that which is."

 

Don't know whether that just makes things more murky or not...

[Brian]

I'll return tomorrow.

 

 

He is apparently transmutating into nothingness.  Love those cycles though.  Without them we can't get back to where we were.

 

 

Its just so ominous Its kind of like ,Wait till your father gets home... dum da dumm dumm,, Then I had to wait until I heard my given name,,, Jesus Christ !..Get in here!.

As a general rule, my evenings are devoted to family life. <shrug>

[Marblehead]

The "duality" of yin and yang

 

That would be (Universal) "Chi" as in "One".  One gave birth to two (yin and yang) as a result of the effect of duality.

 

What does this have to do with suffering?  I have no idea.

[Brian]

That would be (Universal) "Chi" as in "One".  One gave birth to two (yin and yang) as a result of the effect of duality.

 

What does this have to do with suffering?  I have no idea.

Yes, One gave birth to two. Yin and yang are the classical Taoist terms for the characteristics of the relative comparators but they are expressed in other ways as well -- heavy vs. light, light vs. dark, good vs. bad, positive vs. negative, etc., etc. Without the separation created by the One rending itself to manifest these differentiations, the differentiations themselves do not exist. When, however, we forget or deny the "reality" of anything beyond that separation, then that separation becomes everything. Fixating on that separation, and on the sensations manifesting from that duality (regardless of whether the sensations are pleasant or otherwise) sets the stage for insatiable thirst -- for more pleasure, for cessation of its opposite, for "things," for praise, etc. Suffering arises through that quality of insatiability.

[Brian]

Why can't things just be as they are without the complexity of that which they also might be ? You are this, now, then you might be some other if you think it, but then aren't you thinking you might also be some other place than where you are ? Isn't that somewhat like living 'not in the now' but in the 'probable nows' ? It's clearly comfortable for you to live that way otherwise you wouldn't say it, so that's only an observation as I know that would not be comfortable for me. I like solid stuff and I'm happy with its dissolution, but I don't dwell on, or enjoy the dissolution, it's just change and I'm happy to be part of it. I both feel and perceive a unity in that being so for me. I'm a leaf on a tree and I cannot know the whole tree. One day I will fall and turn to dust, that is the cycle and everything else undergoes that same cycle and there is peace enough in knowing that.

So, the Euclidean purest might ask, "Why do you feel the need to complicate things by believing in these imaginary other forms of mathematics when it is self-evident that plane geometry is not only the one true math but it also answers any question which needs to be answered?"

 

I might respond by describing how trigonometry is an extension of geometry based on the circle & inscribed triangle which allows for the quantification of results, and how algebra is a symbolic expansion of geometry which allows problems to be generalized and can address issues beyond the two or three dimensions to which Euclidean techniques are limited. I would continue, perhaps, to describe how differential calculus collapses geometry to the infinitesimal and how that can be used to address rates of change. I might go on the demonstrate how, through the introduction of the so-called "imaginary number" and the concept of the transcendental and self-derivative natural exponential function, trig can be used to bridge between geometry and algebra, providing a method whereby the mathematician can seamlessly toggle between families of techniques to make the solutions more simple. I might then discuss how Newton used Euclidean geometry to explain his solution of the motion of the heavenly bodies from the data compiled by Kepler and Brahe in order to then demonstrate the more efficient (if less beautiful) approach afforded by differential calculus, or I might move on to integral calculus, and then to expansions thereof like linear and nonlinear differential equations (both ordinary and partial), vector calculus, matrix algebra, etc.

 

You see, it is not that I am a "reality denier" or a "logic hater" (phrases of my own creation), instead, I recognize the existence of, and validity of, math other than Euclidean geometry, much as I enjoy and appreciate Euclidean geometry.

[dwai]

Yes, One gave birth to two. Yin and yang are the classical Taoist terms for the characteristics of the relative comparators but they are expressed in other ways as well -- heavy vs. light, light vs. dark, good vs. bad, positive vs. negative, etc., etc. Without the separation created by the One rending itself to manifest these differentiations, the differentiations themselves do not exist. When, however, we forget or deny the "reality" of anything beyond that separation, then that separation becomes everything. Fixating on that separation, and on the sensations manifesting from that duality (regardless of whether the sensations are pleasant or otherwise) sets the stage for insatiable thirst -- for more pleasure, for cessation of its opposite, for "things," for praise, etc. Suffering arises through that quality of insatiability.

The insatiability is actually a craving for the Dao/God/Emptiness whatever you call it. Most people stumble from one object to another in search of something. It is actually an incomplete feeling that we seek to address. That is the reason for the insatiability...we call it "trishna" (thirst) in India. This trishna when channelized into a proper spiritual path will lead the individual back to overcoming it. 

[dwai]

And I'm not averse to quotable quotes like these  

 

Fear is born from our concepts regarding life, death, being, and nonbeing. If we are able to get rid of all these concepts by touching the reality within ourselves, then nonfear will be there and the greatest relief will become possible. 

~ Thich Nhat Hanh

[Stosh]

To borrow from Shaman Flowing Hands' gift to us:

 

The Dao begot one,

one gave birth and then there was two.

Two begot three.

And so the Ten Thousand Things were formed.

Chapter 42 -- Dao De Jhing

 

He also tells us:

...The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form.

For the Ten Thousand Things all depend upon it.

Like this space, the Sage can use its formless qualities; for it yields to whatever, or whoever

uses it.

Hold fast to this and remain at one.

Chapter 5

 

And:

The root of Heaven and Earth,

can be found in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries.

The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten

thousand things.

It is ever present and eternal.

Chapter 6

 

Now, I am not a scripturalist by any means but I recognize pith and merit when I see it.

 

The Rig Veda speaks of the universe coming into existence through a word.

 

The puranic cosmogony has a cycle of creation and destruction, punctuated by periods of nonexistence which are as long as the period of existence.

 

The biblical view has the universe coming into existence through a word.

 

Physical cosmology currently includes a number of divergent theories -- variations on a gravitational singularity, brane inflation, loop quantum gravity, spin foam, models in which the "singularity" is Planck-length sized, the Barrett-Crane model, et al. One of the underlying premises in many of these modern approaches, however, is quantum vacuum zero-point energy.

 

What am I getting at? Well, that primal "whatever" remains. The everything/nothing which came before and comes after and fills the spaces between is the absolute reality -- the ten thousands things are manifestations.

 

The "duality" of yin and yang (personally, I see a "triality" of yin, yang and yuan but that's a topic for a different thread) is a manifestation of the one, an effect of the "tearing apart" of "now" into "past" and "future." All the ten thousand things exist in a bubble in the Oneness, centered on "here & now" and formed for the purpose of allowing this manifestation of potential to be experienced. Within the "physical world," the bubble is not apparent because the physical world is that which is inside the bubble.

 

Matching one's impedance or refraction index or frequency (or whatever analog makes sense to you) to that of the essence of the bubble itself makes the bubble become transparent, allowing one to view beyond its boundaries and glimpse the unity beyond, the converged reality in which the illusion of separation doesn't exist. By quiescing the internal dialog and then "listening," one can begin to match impedance with "that which is."

 

Don't know whether that just makes things more murky or not...

No that doesnt appear murky at all , it looks like yaddah yaddah yaddah.. .. you subdue the internal dialog,  look for your own internal unity, and realistic assessment of the situation of the moment. 

[Stosh]

Here is another take Bud,

 

Joy does not come by will alone, "but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"

 

(aka - Grace)  otherwise every willful being in the universe would hoard Joy as if it were their private possession.

 

Btw, one can not have this world and eat it to, (so to speak) thus there are only a tiny handful of realized and Joyful Buddha's walking around (as you imply) who btw. are not householders and thus actually or in effect beg for food and need other types of serious support to live in this worldly world which they have renounced.

Interesting,,, it directly suggests God is actually the cause of suffering by witholding joy in the universe of his own creation. Nice! 

[Karl]

So, the Euclidean purest might ask, "Why do you feel the need to complicate things by believing in these imaginary other forms of mathematics when it is self-evident that plane geometry is not only the one true math but it also answers any question which needs to be answered?"I might respond by describing how trigonometry is an extension of geometry based on the circle & inscribed triangle which allows for the quantification of results, and how algebra is a symbolic expansion of geometry which allows problems to be generalized and can address issues beyond the two or three dimensions to which Euclidean techniques are limited. I would continue, perhaps, to describe how differential calculus collapses geometry to the infinitesimal and how that can be used to address rates of change. I might go on the demonstrate how, through the introduction of the so-called "imaginary number" and the concept of the transcendental and self-derivative natural exponential function, trig can be used to bridge between geometry and algebra, providing a method whereby the mathematician can seamlessly toggle between families of techniques to make the solutions more simple. I might then discuss how Newton used Euclidean geometry to explain his solution of the motion of the heavenly bodies from the data compiled by Kepler and Brahe in order to then demonstrate the more efficient (if less beautiful) approach afforded by differential calculus, or I might move on to integral calculus, and then to expansions thereof like linear and nonlinear differential equations (both ordinary and partial), vector calculus, matrix algebra, etc.You see, it is not that I am a "reality denier" or a "logic hater" (phrases of my own creation), instead, I recognize the existence of, and validity of, math other than Euclidean geometry, much as I enjoy and appreciate Euclidean geometry.

 

Funnily enough I knew you were going to say that, or words to that effect.

 

To simplify: Are you saying that mathematical constructs such as negative numbers are a reality ? as I understand it, even large numbers- it is said they are infinite, but no one ever counts to infinity so, in fact they are only infinite in theory, in reality they stop at whatever point the counting stops-always a number less than infinity. Does even zero does not exist ? we can count zero specific things, but not an ultimate zero. Nowhere is there nothing. Even geometry is carried out with perfect lines, angles and measurement.

 

I have a book by someone who wanted to change maths so that zero was actually the largest number (the sum of all numbers). Might throw up some interesting answers to regular calculations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bud Jetsun]

So, the Euclidean purest might ask, "Why do you feel the need to complicate things by believing in these imaginary other forms of mathematics when it is self-evident that plane geometry is not only the one true math but it also answers any question which needs to be answered?"

 

I might respond by describing how trigonometry is an extension of geometry based on the circle & inscribed triangle which allows for the quantification of results, and how algebra is a symbolic expansion of geometry which allows problems to be generalized and can address issues beyond the two or three dimensions to which Euclidean techniques are limited. I would continue, perhaps, to describe how differential calculus collapses geometry to the infinitesimal and how that can be used to address rates of change. I might go on the demonstrate how, through the introduction of the so-called "imaginary number" and the concept of the transcendental and self-derivative natural exponential function, trig can be used to bridge between geometry and algebra, providing a method whereby the mathematician can seamlessly toggle between families of techniques to make the solutions more simple. I might then discuss how Newton used Euclidean geometry to explain his solution of the motion of the heavenly bodies from the data compiled by Kepler and Brahe in order to then demonstrate the more efficient (if less beautiful) approach afforded by differential calculus, or I might move on to integral calculus, and then to expansions thereof like linear and nonlinear differential equations (both ordinary and partial), vector calculus, matrix algebra, etc.

 

You see, it is not that I am a "reality denier" or a "logic hater" (phrases of my own creation), instead, I recognize the existence of, and validity of, math other than Euclidean geometry, much as I enjoy and appreciate Euclidean geometry.

 

 

If one believes math exists somewhere beyond the minds of humans, did math give rise to reality/God or reality/God give rise to math?  Either way, why would math be at best a system of non-relative construct approximations rooted in human observation/perception?

[Stosh]

God gave us math so we learn to hate living. 

[Karl]

God gave us math so we learn to hate living. 

 

LOL

[Marblehead]

I'm glad we all are still suffering.

[Stosh]

I'm glad we all are still suffering.

We can only hope Brian joins the club....but I suppose at this time of day he is playing with the kids a game of solve the quadratic equasion. Edited August 27, 2015 by Stosh