Is pain inevitable for progressing at QiGong?

[bd2]

Zhan Zhuang is either painful (if i stand for a long period of time, depending on whether or not my thighs are horizontal or in an 45 degree angle) or my muscles do not grow and i do not progress. (if i stop standing as soon as it gets uncomfortable) (someone on an other forum wrote: "My progress in horse stance has been slow as molasses. I think I went from 2 minutes to 3 minutes in 3-4 months. I just timed my stance at 8 minutes this morning, breaking my old record by about 30 seconds.")

 

Wasting time due to ineffective training or being in pain - both is inacceptable.

Everybody has got the same problem. Everybody feels pain during sport training (Zhan Zhuang, Tai Chi etc.). If pain is not felt, muscles are likely to shrink. So what are we supposed to do?

[nightwatchdog]

The purpose of Zhan Zhuang is not, Not, NOT, not to build muscles. It is used to build internal linkages, develop and expand Chi, develop a pure mind, patience, perseverance, thread the Chi throughout your body, and learn to express fajing, to name a few.

 

The pain you are feeling could be for a variety of reasons, but if you are standing correctly, it's usually discomfort associated with Chi blockages being cleared.

 

Who are you learning from?

[bd2]

[nightwatchdog]

My mistake. Intentionally doing damage to the nervous system sounds like a bad idea to me. If it's part of the practice you enjoy doing, I cannot help you. Perhaps you should ask your teacher's advice.

Edited October 25, 2007 by nightwatchdog

[Taomeow]

[Yoda]

I thought wall sits was just a way to torture high school basketball players!! I had never thought of them as a cool chikung system with weight loss benefits too!! Thanks!

[bd2]

[Taomeow]

Edited October 25, 2007 by Taomeow

[Trunk]

.. He insists that we endure the burning and that any pain we feel means we're doing something wrong. ..

* wow *

Excellent post, whole thing.

[宁]

ditto, great Taomeow

 

bd2, the whole ideea of Taoism is gaining with less or even no effort, that is non-action, working intellingent and wise, not hard...

we should not take up eastern arts using western mind

 

Xin and Yi are different

[lino]

not an expert at horse stance but have some rudimentary knowledge on exercise science

 

Try using other principles of exercise science such as "Progressive Overload" and "Variety"

 

The Wall Sit is a super excellent suggestion

 

 

"PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD"

 

try not to do the horse stance ALL OF THE TIME. And if you do, break the 8 minute time that you put up into 2 or 3 reps.

 

8 minutes = 480 seconds

 

divide by 3 = 160 seconds

 

3 reps x 160 seconds = 480 seconds ...but add 10 to 15 seconds to each "rep" so that the outcome looks something like this:

 

3 reps x 170 seconds = 510 seconds ... take a 15 to 30 second break in between reps, but take a shorter break the next day or the next time. In two to three weeks time, with shorter breaks, you get to the point of no breaks in between reps.

 

"VARIETY"

 

Remember that 80 percent of the strength and power in your legs comes from the posterior chain (hamstrings, buttocks, and lower back) <--- so you would benefit from deadlifts, hyperextensions, squats,..., some sort of compound movement that moves all of your leg muscles

 

You can do other exercises to improve the horse stance.

 

Examples would be:

 

front squat with light weight and static hold at the bottom.

 

lunges and split squats with the same conditions as the front squats above.

 

short sprints (50-100 meters) on a track with breaks, both forward sprints and backward sprints (running backwards). Backward sprints may be risky but the rewards outweighs the risk significantly. Risk is reduced by having a friend or partner run forward while you run backward.

 

"RECOVERY"

 

Maybe it isn't good to do the Zhan Zhuang EVERY SINGLE DAY. Try taking a break of a day or two, until your legs feel "fresh".

 

BUT...BIG BUT...

 

"STRETCHES"

 

I can't put enough emphasis on stretching. Hell, the guy with the highest recorded vertical on the planet stretches for four hours a day...doesn't mean you have to stretch for four hours a day though but please pay attention to stretching.

 

Find stretches on the internet, that help you stretch:

 

calves: gastroc (best accomplished straight legged) and soleus (best accomplished with a bent knee)

 

hamstrings

 

quadriceps

 

groin

 

buttocks

 

lower back

 

psoas muscle <--- you may have to do some digging to find what works for you

 

 

NOTE: Bill Bodri stated that "sitting" meditation clears out lactic acid faster than recovery and sleeping alone.

 

Check out Trunk's web site and Plato's blog (loosening the front of the body could help strengthen the back of the body significantly) for other suggestions

 

 

May the merit of this post go to all

[Eric23]

Novice Zhang Zhuang practicioner here. This thread is affirming my practice and prompting a new question. Should one start out right away in the horse stance, or do you gradually work into it? I've been bending my knees, shoulder width apart from the very beginning, but not anywhere near a full horse stance. I'm fully in agreement with Taomeow on the no pain stance. Burn is good, pain is not. Thanks.

[lino]

Novice Zhang Zhuang practicioner here. This thread is affirming my practice and prompting a new question. Should one start out right away in the horse stance, or do you gradually work into it? I've been bending my knees, shoulder width apart from the very beginning, but not anywhere near a full horse stance. I'm fully in agreement with Taomeow on the no pain stance. Burn is good, pain is not. Thanks.

 

 

Stretching and wall sit in order to increase your range of motion may be your most important avenue until you can reach the full horse.

[Spectrum]

learn to suspend your muscles on qi

 

This is what wuji does in taiji, a central point of reference in which you expand and contract to and fro. But first... everyone must find Wuji.... it's usually what.. . 3 inches away from standing up straight?

 

Should one start out right away in the horse stance, or do you gradually work into it? I've been bending my knees, shoulder width apart from the very beginning, but not anywhere near a full horse stance.

 

I second the wall sit for warmup. Alternate w/ kneebends down to your wuji height. Hip circles are a good one as well. Clockwise, Counterclockwise, S-pattern to change directions. Of coarse Sun Salutations for loosening the Big Hinge.

 

On the width of stance, there is a variety of stances available using your own body as measuring stick.

 

It goes something like this. Start w/ your feet together and systematically pivot your feet from the heels and toes 45 degrees into a parallel stance.

 

Once the first wuji is found (shoulder width) pivot only one foot by 45 degrees to find successive stances. The depth of the stance can (should but not set in stone injury/age) change w/ the width. Parrallel feet, w/ knees not passing over toes. Whole foot contacts ground. Feet suction cup on inhale, relax and align w/ exhale. Focus on settling down. Breath w/ the fine tuning.

 

Spectrum

Edited October 26, 2007 by Spectrum

[Eric23]

Sincere thanks for the advice. My morning practice is a yin yoga based stretching routine. In the afternoons I start with 8 brochades (squats included here) followed by Zhang Zhuang. Being an old fart, will gradually increase knee bend and add wall sitting.

[mYTHmAKER]

Novice Zhang Zhuang practicioner here. This thread is affirming my practice and prompting a new question. Should one start out right away in the horse stance, or do you gradually work into it? I've been bending my knees, shoulder width apart from the very beginning, but not anywhere near a full horse stance. I'm fully in agreement with Taomeow on the no pain stance. Burn is good, pain is not. Thanks.

 

Gradually.

Make sure your knees are not extended beyond your toes - thighs turned out - weight to outside of feet so the ankle does not rotate in.

You can stand in front of a chair - seat facing you - lined up with your toes.

If the chair moves when you go into your stance your knees have moved too far forward.

 

Intuflow is good for the joints of old and young farts.

Meridian Flexibility resistance stretching is also helpful along with yin yoga

I don't like the wall sits as I feel my weight is too far back on my heels - if the wall was removed

I would fall over. I prefer to do the squat facing the wall - this controls my knees from going too far forward.

[Spectrum]

I don't like the wall sits as I feel my weight is too far back on my heels - if the wall was removed

I would fall over.

 

That's the "tough guy" wall sit, sure to make you sweat and burn and wonder what it's for. Reason I say that is it's not training your "stance" specifically, just things related to it.

 

Try this. Stand w/ your back against the wall. Heels touching the wall.

 

Gradually slide into wuji. (slide your butt down the wall. Focus on keeping the spine aligned all the way up the wall. (try to remove the natural curves as you drop into wuji: feel the curves elongate down/up the wall.)

 

Weight drops directly down your shoulders/spine/pelvis/heels&k1.

 

Remember to open your kua. There are three primary postural "bows" that are strung when you drop into wuji.

 

As soon as you get there (wuji) you'll feel a resting point in which going deeper shifts COG forward. (or backwards)

 

Adjust up and down until you feel like your WITH the wall, not learning away, or leaning against it, just with it as a guide.

 

If you want to check your alignment use a pendulum from the tip of your shoulder in wuji, you'll find it drops to the center of the heel. The weight is distributed evenly through the bridge of the foot. If it aligns forward or rear of the heel adjust accordingly.

 

Spectrum

Edited October 27, 2007 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

Try if you can get the burning instead of the pain in this position. If you hold it for one minute for starters, that's fine, if you keep doing it every day, it will take longer and longer for you to start feeling the burning. Once you feel it, endure it for a while, it's burning off what you don't need, it's not damaging anything.

 

It was always explained to me by my first teacher as being a perception range between pain, discomfort, comfort & pleasure. (and our misconceptions thereof)

 

Also to note is the local sensations of "burning" can dissolve, relocated, spread out, shrink, etc. This is all normal. The first step is feeling what this "burning" is that TM is talking about though. A quick way is grab any object and hold it upwards at a 45 deg angle. Drop into wuji. The first goal is 2 min. When you encounter an obsticle to your goal, search withing to find a way around. The best is to use a small barbell weight and poke your mind through the hole up to a tack on the wall. Hang the weight from the tack. When it burns, reach out and hang it up again. You're not holding it up, your suspending it on your boing.

 

And, no, it won't get you to grow big muscles. Structurally, it will get you to grow strong bones and strong, structurally sound legs, a prerequisite for the efficient use of your whole body no matter what you engage it in.

 

We should have a taobums wuji workshop. Would Sifu J-T host TM? Arn't he in CA?

 

Spectrum

Edited October 27, 2007 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

Don't forget to print this thread, research the things people suggest, (or quote), experiment, and judge based on experience.

 

To answer your thread question Is pain inevitable, Yes, as a form of communication, as a messenger bringing instructions, not something that is the enemy. You will never have an enemy that you wish to keep nearer than pain.

 

Remember that we are mostly water. The messages the body sends are relevant to WHERE they are in your body. How that part of your body works. How fluid moves through you. That is the Art. Even your organs but that is later. Right now we're dealing with muscles & ligaments / bones & joints. The visable leads to the invisable. Not the other way around.

 

Consider the knee. Anytime you feel a discomfort or pain in a JOINT you should pause from "standing meditation", which isn't meditation if your stiff and locked up in your stillness (ref: movement in stillness), in the case of the knee, relax your hips & feet, breath in, adjust the pelvis to bring the stance upwards 1/2 inch. breath out, relax the pelvis, the knees return to wuji. By transitioning w/ your pelvis you are rotating your dan t9ien. You could also reverse it and breath out, lower your stance, the dan tien rocks forward slightly the spinal spring elongates, and the frequency of the stance changes patterns yet again.

 

Consider the wrist. Another joint. What side is the discomfort? Is it coming from the wrist? Relax the elbow, shoulder & back, exhale, drop into wuji, boing. falling leaves. breath

 

These types of mindful (breath intent yi) adjustments and transitions are ways of maintaining the 10 points (in Bhuddhist terms the Diamond Body?) of practice in Tai Chi Chuan practice. Bad Taiji, or poor posture and form in general, has no connective structure of wuji.

 

Interesting to note the qualities of wuji in light of what Buckminster Fuller termed Syngergetics, what Castenada followers deemed Tensegrity, a term actually invented by Bucky. Epicenter Apricot? The theory of a sustainable center through dynamically interplaying relationships of tension and compression, the whole composing something greater than the sum of it's parts.

 

Inquire Within. (www.taobums.com on the back)

 

Wuji YinYang Taiji PaKua

 

Nothing, SOmething, S's & O's, 8 Directions.

 

Spectrum

[mYTHmAKER]

That's the "tough guy" wall sit, sure to make you sweat and burn and wonder what it's for. Reason I say that is it's not training your "stance" specifically, just things related to it.

 

Try this. Stand w/ your back against the wall. Heels touching the wall.

 

Gradually slide into wuji. (slide your butt down the wall. Focus on keeping the spine aligned all the way up the wall. (try to remove the natural curves as you drop into wuji: feel the curves elongate down/up the wall.)

 

Weight drops directly down your shoulders/spine/pelvis/heels&k1.

 

Remember to open your kua. There are three primary postural "bows" that are strung when you drop into wuji.

 

As soon as you get there (wuji) you'll feel a resting point in which going deeper shifts COG forward. (or backwards)

 

Adjust up and down until you feel like your WITH the wall, not learning away, or leaning against it, just with it as a guide.

 

If you want to check your alignment use a pendulum from the tip of your shoulder in wuji, you'll find it drops to the center of the heel. The weight is distributed evenly through the bridge of the foot. If it aligns forward or rear of the heel adjust accordingly.

 

Spectrum

 

 

I prefer to stand wall free and holding a broomstick or mop handle - one hand head high the other below

the bottom of your spine - pressing against your back.

You can then adjust your back to be flat against the broomstick as you squat.

This way you get the proper weight distribution in your feet and can go as low as you like - as if you were sitting in a chair - your back vertical as possible - without pushing knees forward.

 

You can also hang a plumb line from the ceiling and keep your nose aligned.

[Spectrum]

I prefer to stand wall free and holding a broomstick or mop handle - one hand head high the other below

the bottom of your spine - pressing against your back.

 

Sweet I'm going to try this.

 

You can then adjust your back to be flat against the broomstick as you squat.

 

I'm looking around for a broom here but I am thinking from my experiences of using signposts this kinda fits into the spines depression nicely.

 

 

This way you get the proper weight distribution in your feet and can go as low as you like - as if you were sitting in a chair - your back vertical as possible - without pushing knees forward.

 

Photos?

 

You can also hang a plumb line from the ceiling and keep your nose aligned.

 

You mean for L/R?

[rain]

horse stance

 

you transit from defence to

sustain.

[mYTHmAKER]

You mean for L/R?

 

Front to back

So you don't move your knees over your toes.

The plumb line takes the place of a wall.

Edited October 28, 2007 by mYTHmAKER

[Ryan McCoole]