The function of the concept

[Nikolai1]

Hi Karl

 

Imagine you are sat in the Nag's Head and you are arranging to meet two friends there, one is coming from the south of town and the other from the North.  You phone them both on conference call from your mobile to save time.  

 

An eavesdropper distinctly hears you say: "the pub's on the left" AND "the pub's on the right".  Because you are contradicting yourself, he assumes you are trying to confuse your friend.  As you put the phone down he reproaches you for this, and says you gave contradictory directions.

 

Why is he wrong to do so?

[Karl]

Choosing this belief set as opposed to an alternative God-based belief set is equally making a faith based delusion your reality. 

 

Realize why you can't know anything, and why there is nothing to know.  This realization offers liberation from delusion of human-knowledge of reality being reality.

 

Many have already accepted the eyes generate an illusion derived from some perceptions of some reflected mystery consciousness-deterministic mystery called light.  Why then do we take the 99.999999% emptyness with some unknown constructive/deconstructive energy pattern we perceive as "solid matter" to be something through human perception induced arrogance we assume to know so well.  If you want to be logic and direct observation driven, QM  in the clever interferometry experiments "solid matter" is undefined and unarisen prior to consciousness' participation/perception, as well as showing evidence of universal entanglement to the limits of a humans ability to test for it. Just realization of the double-slit working with light from distant galaxies focused through a telescope being indeterminate until a conciousness makes a choice of how to give rise to it, then it defines the path it took some number of billions of years ago. 

 

It doesn't require watching someone part the sea or walk on water to realize the humans concept of reality is built around a series of perception limited delusions.  To jump to the conclusion of "knowing" is merely an alternative label to the same jump in delusion being made for any belief set, whether it be God/faith based or word/faith based or atheist/faith based, equally they are all products of human delusion to replace realization of Wisdom (not knowing). 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

That would be correct Bud if I was making a faith based leap. I've said this to Atheist friends when the subject of God comes up. They don't 'believe' in God, but they haven't reached the conclusion that there is no God. Well, not in the sense of an omniscient creator of everything.

 

It does not matter than your perception is limited. For instance you can look at a pen in a glass of water and it appears bent. When you learn basic physics it is discovered that it is an illusion created by the diffraction properties of water over air. However, even when you know that to be true, the pen doesn't miraculously straighten out. If your senses had not been able to pick up this difference and explore it, then we may never have learned about the refractive qualities of different materials. We aren't limited by our perceptions. We used the knowledge of refraction to build powerful microscopes and telescopes to extend our senses.

 

The most powerful tool we have is the capacity to reason. There have been short periods of time where reason was allowed to flourish, but today it's previously open nature has been comprehensively shut down by the creation of compartments of specialisation.

[Karl]

Nothing has been created.  This nothing has a direction that is observable in nature uncontrived. 

 

Cause and effect are within the universe. The universe is the totality of all instances of cause and effect but is not itself the result of cause.

[Karl]

Yawn, the Big Bang Theory????  Enough of this logic BS.  Let's get into the science of it....the birth of the universe.

 

 

http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

 

It's a 'theory'. A bad one.

[Karl]

For the realization of emptiness.

 

Stop pointing to secondhand information, I want to know why it's important to you.

 

For what purpose the realisation of emptiness ?

[Karl]

Hi Karl

 

Imagine you are sat in the Nag's Head and you are arranging to meet two friends there, one is coming from the south of town and the other from the North.  You phone them both on conference call from your mobile to save time.  

 

An eavesdropper distinctly hears you say: "the pub's on the left" AND "the pub's on the right".  Because you are contradicting yourself, he assumes you are trying to confuse your friend.  As you put the phone down he reproaches you for this, and says you gave contradictory directions.

 

Why is he wrong to do so?

 

If I was the stranger I wouldn't make that assumption. I would clearly understand spacial positioning. It would appear to me as if he was saying 'if x then L , if y then R' .

 

 

[Nikolai1]

The stranger did make the assumption and challenged you.  What did you say?

[Karl]

the kid would never learn....     

 

You would be amazed at the things you easily reveal to an unlicensed therapist :-)

 

"Seductive is the dark side of the force, very powerful" :-)

[Karl]

The stranger did make the assumption and challenged you.  What did you say?

 

"Fuck off you nosey git" if I was in a particularly bad mood.

[Nikolai1]

OK

 

Well firstly we see that the stranger made an assumption that you were talking to one person on the phone.  This assumption led him to see, quite validly, that your directions were contradictory.  A person can't be sat in a pub that is on both sides of the road.

 

His argument was rendered invalid when it came to pass that you were talking to two people, and therefore dealing with two differnent perspectives.  So that which sounds illogical to one perspective can become logical when two perspectives are taken into account.

 

At the verbal level nothing is changed.  You words were that the pub is on the right-hand side and on the left.

 

The point of all this is, that any thinker, before he accuses illogic, must always at least bear in mind that there might be a perspective that he is not taking into account.

 

Now getting the stranger in the pub to understand that your speaking to two people was a defence against his charge was probably quite easy.  If you were talking to a child, or an autistic teenager, who struggles to flip smoothly between perspectives, you may have found your task harder.

 

This is the situation that faces the person who has discovered the non-existence of existence.  It is a perspective that is rare, and literally unimaginable to those who haven't experienced first hand.

 

Of course I say that things both exist and don't exist but even that is a bit unsatisfactory.  Just as saying that the pub is on BOTH the right and left side is a bit lame...but it comes as close as anything.  In truth there is no relation between the pub and the concepts 'right-side' or 'left-side'.  The reality transcends such concepts, even though the concepts can be extremely useful, provisionally speaking.  Both your ladyfriends found you at the bar without a hitch.

 

If you want me to talk more about the vision of non-existence, which incidentally, occupies an immense amount of the Buddha's teachings, as well as great teachers across all traditions, then I can do so.

 

In the meantime, you need to have the humility to realise that there are things that might be beyond your grasp at present.

[Karl]

OK

 

Well firstly we see that the stranger made an assumption that you were talking to one person on the phone.  This assumption led him to see, quite validly, that your directions were contradictory.  A person can't be sat in a pub that is on both sides of the road.

 

His argument was rendered invalid when it came to pass that you were talking to two people, and therefore dealing with two differnent perspectives.  So that which sounds illogical to one perspective can become logical when two perspectives are taken into account.

 

At the verbal level nothing is changed.  You words were that the pub is on the right-hand side and on the left.

 

The point of all this is, that any thinker, before he accuses illogic, must always at least bear in mind that there might be a perspective that he is not taking into account.

 

Now getting the stranger in the pub to understand that your speaking to two people was a defence against his charge was probably quite easy.  If you were talking to a child, or an autistic teenager, who struggles to flip smoothly between perspectives, you may have found your task harder.

 

This is the situation that faces the person who has discovered the non-existence of existence.  It is a perspective that is rare, and literally unimaginable to those who haven't experienced first hand.

 

Of course I say that things both exist and don't exist but even that is a bit unsatisfactory.  Just as saying that the pub is on BOTH the right and left side is a bit lame...but it comes as close as anything.  In truth there is no relation between the pub and the concepts 'right-side' or 'left-side'.  The reality transcends such concepts, even though the concepts can be extremely useful, provisionally speaking.  Both your ladyfriends found you at the bar without a hitch.

 

If you want me to talk more about the vision of non-existence, which incidentally, occupies an immense amount of the Buddha's teachings, as well as great teachers across all traditions, then I can do so.

 

In the meantime, you need to have the humility to realise that there are things that might be beyond your grasp at present.

 

Give over now you're tickling, I shall give you a gentle cuff :-)

 

 

[Nikolai1]

You've probably noticed yourself that the most unintelligent people you know have fixed views and find it hard to change them.  They simply cannot see what you are trying to say when you present an alternative view.

 

What I have discovered is that everyone has their limit.  For some they can't see why another person might buy a different brand of tea.  They are not able to acccount for taste.  They see quite clearly that one tastes better and turn their own view into a fixed truth, that people either get right or wrong.

 

Another person cannot get their hed round how a person can be a City fan AND a top bloke.  It baffles them, and disturbs them.

 

We all have our limits.

 

I've dicovered that intelligence can soar so high that even the most fundamental categories can become just provisional concepts.  This is the intelligence beyong intelligence.  It is why Socrates and Confucius both observed that they actually know nothing.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Karl]

You've probably noticed yourself that the most unintelligent people you know have fixed views and find it hard to change them.  They simply cannot see what you are trying to say when you present an alternative view.

 

What I have discovered is that everyone has their limit.  For some they can't see why another person might buy a different brand of tea.  They are not able to acccount for taste.  They see quite clearly that one tastes better and turn their own view into a fixed truth, that people either get right or wrong.

 

Another person cannot get their hed round how a person can be a City fan AND a top bloke.  It baffles them, and disturbs them.

 

We all have our limits.

 

I've dicovered that intelligence can soar so high that even the most fundamental categories can become just provisional concepts.  This is the intelligence beyong intelligence.  It is why Socrates and Confucius both observed that they actually know nothing.

 

I don't try to change them. Its none of my business. Most of my friends are probably stuck in their ways, but I'm not interested unless it spills over. We go out, talk rubbish, ride bikes, eat a curry and drink a few beers. If they have problems and want to off load then I listen politely.

 

I've had recently had several close friends die from Cancer-blimey I spend more time at funerals these days than weddings or christenings:-)- they often need to talk about their terminal illness, they don't want opinions, sympathy or solutions. They are naturally scared of dying, the loss of dignity in the late stages is particularly difficult. So, I think that you should see that maybe. I mean to know how little time we have, and how pointless it is to try and change someone to your view point unless you can offer them unconditional bliss and, if you haven't got that, then you can't give it can you ?

[Nikolai1]

Yes I totally agree.  There aren't many people who would benefit from my words, and many that would suffer hugely were they to hear them.  Words only get understood at the level of the understander.

 

This, though, is a website for people seeking liberation.  This is the place to air these views.  I like to think that I can tailor my views according to where people are at.  In fact, my wordlview allows this because I don't feel morally compelled to always speak the truth, like those who have truths do.  To have a fixed truth, is to worship it, and to feel compelled to share it for the betterment of everyone.

 

You have come here presenting a distinctive, monolithic philsophy in a robust manner.  I've felt no probelm unearthing all the ancient philsophical arguments of the centuries

 

On the other hand, I once had a girlfriend who started to have a panic attack when i talked about the boundlessness of space.  This is a person who must only be told small truths at a time.

[Karl]

Yes I totally agree.  There aren't many people who would benefit from my words, and many that would suffer hugely were they to hear them.  Words only get understood at the level of the understander.

 

This, though, is a website for people seeking liberation.  This is the place to air these views.  I like to think that I can tailor my views according to where people are at.  In fact, my wordlview allows this because I don't feel morally compelled to always speak the truth, like those who have truths do.  To have a fixed truth, is to worship it, and to feel compelled to share it for the betterment of everyone.

 

You have come here presenting a distinctive, monolithic philsophy in a robust manner.  I've felt no probelm unearthing all the ancient philsophical arguments of the centuries

 

On the other hand, I once had a girlfriend who started to have a panic attack when i talked about the boundlessness of space.  This is a person who must only be told small truths at a time.

 

This is a place for combat. You come here to test your truth against others. It is a form of Kung Fu. It is to discover your own weaknesses, not those of others-to learn a better Kung Fu. It is a game. You aren't teaching anyone anything, only yourself. It isn't a case of intellectual prowess, it is about monitoring your own responses to challenges and discovering the flaws in your thinking.

 

So you don't treat it as candy floss at all, you lied to yourself, giving all that bullshit about the 'raft of knowledge and subtle feet" stuff.

It isn't for me to say, but see the things in yourself, what comes up, well it's just for you and we all live with ourselves and whatever crap we dragged into our consciousness awareness.

 

Anyway, I have windows to repair, a book to write and many miles still to go.

[Nikolai1]

At first I thought you were a troll. Now I can see you're genuine, but just on a very strange website considering your worldview. Anyway ,you're clearly getting something from being here!

[Wu Ming Jen]

I thought karl was a troll too by joining a Taoist site trying to push Greek philosophy that is in opposition with creation, man against nature kind of stuff. It turns out he is trying to verify his own thoughts not actual based on anything, any action can be verified by the mind.

[Karl]

I thought karl was a troll too by joining a Taoist site trying to push Greek philosophy that is in opposition with creation, man against nature kind of stuff. It turns out he is trying to verify his own thoughts not actual based on anything, any action can be verified by the mind.

Good try.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Karl

[Tibetan_Ice]

Stop pointing to secondhand information, I want to know why it's important to you.For what purpose the realisation of emptiness ?

When I was 16, I broadsided a smaller station wagon while riding my motorcycle. The crash occured in slow motion and "i" watched the whole event transpire from this huge open space about 50 feet away. I watched my body fly through the air and smash down on the pavement. I was just a point of view watching what looked like a scene from a video.

 

i have been seeking an explanation ever since.

 

I have managed to get back to that space a few times now, and I attribute that to "practices". However, there is a component of understanding how it works that I would like to master.

[Karl]

When I was 16, I broadsided a smaller station wagon while riding my motorcycle. The crash occured in slow motion and "i" watched the whole event transpire from this huge open space about 50 feet away. I watched my body fly through the air and smash down on the pavement. I was just a point of view watching what looked like a scene from a video.

i have been seeking an explanation ever since.

I have managed to get back to that space a few times now, and I attribute that to "practices". However, there is a component of understanding how it works that I would like to master.

 

You 'remember' watching your body is very different from actually watching your body.

 

Now, I have had several 'moments' as we like to call them when riding. The last one was several years ago. The upshot was me and my bike squeezing between and oncoming bus and a car driver that had panicked at the sight of my headlamp. I was on one wheel riding an enormous stoppy. I remember it from an off bike viewpoint. Slow motion. I see me on the bike from behind and above on one wheel just like a stunt camera.

 

There is a coherent explanation for the slowing down effect which I only know in basic terms-but if you look on the net you will find a lot of detail. We have a temporal cognisance which reacts to chemical levels in the blood. When we are relaxed time can run relatively quickly, when we are in danger our cognitive function speed up, time appears to expand and slow down.

 

To add to this, during therapy work with a client I would move to 1st party, 2nd party and fly on the wall position and have the client position themselves in that way. It's easy to do. The picture is fuzzier, but the mind copes and fills in the detail enough for it to seem as if the position has changed. We can move ourselves perceptually to different positions and analyse our behaviour-even into the person we were talking to.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You 'remember' watching your body is very different from actually watching your body. Now, I have had several 'moments' as we like to call them when riding. The last one was several years ago. The upshot was me and my bike squeezing between and oncoming bus and a car driver that had panicked at the sight of my headlamp. I was on one wheel riding an enormous stoppy. I remember it from an off bike viewpoint. Slow motion. I see me on the bike from behind and above on one wheel just like a stunt camera. There is a coherent explanation for the slowing down effect which I only know in basic terms-but if you look on the net you will find a lot of detail. We have a temporal cognisance which reacts to chemical levels in the blood. When we are relaxed time can run relatively quickly, when we are in danger our cognitive function speed up, time appears to expand and slow down. To add to this, during therapy work with a client I would move to 1st party, 2nd party and fly on the wall position and have the client position themselves in that way. It's easy to do. The picture is fuzzier, but the mind copes and fills in the detail enough for it to seem as if the position has changed. We can move ourselves perceptually to different positions and analyse our behaviour-even into the person we were talking to.

Why would I want to sit on the couch of someone whom has abandoned mystical knowledge and attempts to strip away and disempower the ineffable by resorting to materialistic objectivism?

Perhaps, instead, you could explain how Tibetan masters have left their footprints in stone.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Karl]

Why would I want to sit on the couch of someone whom has abandoned mystical knowledge and attempts to strip away and disempower the ineffable by resorting to materialistic objectivism?

Perhaps, instead, you could explain how Tibetan masters have left their footprints in stone.

I can think of many ways. None of them involve anything mystical. Strangely enough you are relying on materialistic objectivism to prove mystical powers. Don't you think some super power mystic would be unlikely to bother with such a petty thing as leaving footprints ? Why isn't he sorting out Iraq or the USA ?

Edited August 20, 2015 by Karl

[Wu Ming Jen]

When we reach realization that all things are empty it is easy to see how mind attaches thoughts to things. The thing just is so saying thing is bad, good, living, dead or any attachment it does not change the thing, we are actual only seeing our own mind. 

 

When we realize mind itself is the limiting function to not being able to know our true selves we give up thoughts, give up knowledge become better people. This power is transferable to others 

[Tibetan_Ice]

I can think of many ways. None of them involve anything mystical. Strangely enough you are relying on materialistic objectivism to prove mystical powers. Don't you think some super power mystic would be unlikely to bother with such a petty thing as leaving footprints ? Why isn't he sorting out Iraq or the USA ?

But think of the money you could make selling tours...

 

[ChiForce]

I can think of many ways. None of them involve anything mystical. Strangely enough you are relying on materialistic objectivism to prove mystical powers. Don't you think some super power mystic would be unlikely to bother with such a petty thing as leaving footprints ? Why isn't he sorting out Iraq or the USA ?

Poor thing....sambhogakaya beings are drawn to you by karmic affinity.  The same reason they don't manifest themselves in Iraq or in America is probably the same reason why they don't manifest themselves to you.    The IS war in Iraq is the result of the America's war on Iraq more than 10 years ago.  Islamic extremists are hardly the type receptive to teaching of the Dharma.  When the mind is close, there is no enlightenment.