AYP in financial distress, starts charging for "Plus" lessons.

[Nikolai1]

Karl- spirit is the place where all your definitions take place.  The definition itself is simply another instance of the thing we are defining.  Spirit is a boundless void that encompasses all this, and you can feel it and belong to it.  It is always there.  It is reality itself, and it is our own self-existence.

 

It is the one thing that can't be defined.  But when we awaken to it, this failure does not perturb us in the least.  It is already there in the failure.  The unknowing of it is itself just more of the knowing.

 

You either see what I mean or you don't.  And either is just more of the same spirit.

 

Spirit is oneness.  There is no second to it.  There is no antinym with which to contrast it.  We know it directly and vividly, nad to coneptualise it is to fail, but the failure is more of the same success.

 

I hope I give you a flavour of it!

[Apech]

That's not correct Apech. Thoughts and sensations are totally real the the person experiencing them, they are also real from the perspective of onlookers. If you say you have a pain in your leg then either you are lying for effect, or you do feel a pain in your leg. I cannot validate you have it, but I have no need to, you as a person are valid as an object in awareness. If you say you are having Kundalini symptoms then who Can argue ? It's only when asked to define Kundalini as a concept that the truth comes out. Its a feeling, it's real to you and it's real to me that you tell me you have it, but giving it a label is an attempt to make a concrete object out of nothing. If you are in Love it's the same thing. I can empathise a bit from my own understanding, but I cannot know precisely what love is, or if what you describe as love is anything like I experience. Kundalini then is a feeling or sensation that gives rise to a number of non specific symptoms.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying is not correct.

 

There's a couple of your assumptions I would question.

 

"Its a feeling, it's real to you and it's real to me that you tell me you have it, but giving it a label is an attempt to make a concrete object out of nothing."

 

A feeling is real - it's a feeling.  It seems to me that you only accept 'concrete objects' as real.  And why 'out of nothing' - a feeling is nothing?  It has no correlate in physical changes in your nervous system?  If something affects you and changes your being - your body even - then it what sense is it unreal?

 

"Kundalini then is a feeling or sensation that gives rise to a number of non specific symptoms."

 

I would say the sense of these terms comes from the fact that many people can recognise them once they have had them.  Before that you can read or listen to talks about it and try to form a mental picture of them.  But as soon as you have the experience you realise for yourself what was being talked about because you recognise it.  Of course some people may decide that they have had these experiences when in fact they haven't and then the term gets debased (as often happens in New Age thinking) - this is true but it does not alter the fact that many people have genuine realisation.  This is why I mentioned before specific symptoms and checklists for K. Syndrome which are not 'non specific symptoms' - since they are specific ... in the same way as measles or chickenpox are recognisable.

[Karl]

Karl- spirit is the place where all your definitions take place.  The definition itself is simply another instance of the thing we are defining.  Spirit is a boundless void that encompasses all this, and you can feel it and belong to it.  It is always there.  It is reality itself, and it is our own self-existence.

 

It is the one thing that can't be defined.  But when we awaken to it, this failure does not perturb us in the least.  It is already there in the failure.  The unknowing of it is itself just more of the knowing.

 

You either see what I mean or you don't.  And either is just more of the same spirit.

 

Spirit is oneness.  There is no second to it.  There is no antinym with which to contrast it.  We know it directly and vividly, nad to coneptualise it is to fail, but the failure is more of the same success.

 

I hope I give you a flavour of it!

 

So you can't define that either? You can't define Kundalini, or spirit and yet you hold two concepts, just noises which are backed by no more than a patch of mental fog. You are building a ton of floating concepts which are insubstantial. I know such places exist where you can find people that have a host of things they cannot explain but are very certain of their existence. The more of these you add, the less stable becomes your reality.

 

If you are just intellectually noodling, playing, turning things over and around then there isn't much harm. I think you already admitted you have one foot on the ground in any case. The problems start when you pull up the foot and it goes from harmless play to something much grimmer.

[Karl]

I'm not sure what you are saying is not correct.

 

There's a couple of your assumptions I would question.

 

"Its a feeling, it's real to you and it's real to me that you tell me you have it, but giving it a label is an attempt to make a concrete object out of nothing."

 

A feeling is real - it's a feeling.  It seems to me that you only accept 'concrete objects' as real.  And why 'out of nothing' - a feeling is nothing?  It has no correlate in physical changes in your nervous system?  If something affects you and changes your being - your body even - then it what sense is it unreal?

 

"Kundalini then is a feeling or sensation that gives rise to a number of non specific symptoms."

 

I would say the sense of these terms comes from the fact that many people can recognise them once they have had them.  Before that you can read or listen to talks about it and try to form a mental picture of them.  But as soon as you have the experience you realise for yourself what was being talked about because you recognise it.  Of course some people may decide that they have had these experiences when in fact they haven't and then the term gets debased (as often happens in New Age thinking) - this is true but it does not alter the fact that many people have genuine realisation.  This is why I mentioned before specific symptoms and checklists for K. Syndrome which are not 'non specific symptoms' - since they are specific ... in the same way as measles or chickenpox are recognisable.

 

Well now you have learned something new :-)

 

Label something 'chicken pox' then it can be investigated. There is fever, itchy spots and the blood contains an identifiable virus. You certainly wouldn't wake up one day and announce you felt chicken pox. You feel awful, feverish, hot, itchy. These things are palpable and a diagnosis can be made that chicken pox is the cause.

 

However if you say you have 'rising damp' or 'woodworm' then you get odd looks and possibly a nice ride to the psyche ward.

 

If you say you are in Love, then that's what you are, but you haven't analysed the emotions that are present. It's possible then to make those perceptual. Maybe you have a sensation of butterflies in the stomach and feel light headed and faint. A doctor can't take a blood sample and diagnose love virus. It's purely an emotional feeling that translates to physical effects which register in awareness.

 

That you are in love and have these sensations is true for you and that you have them is true for the doctor. However this isn't what's going on with the term Kundalini. No one thinks twice if you say you are excited, in love, happy, sad etc, everyone has a rough idea what you mean, but to say you have Kundalini is giving an impression that you have something akin to chicken pox. It isn't just a feeling but a diagnosable reality. Yet you must know this is untrue. It hasn't a concrete form it's just another group of sensations and symptoms in awareness.

 

What's more I suspect you are coming to that conclusion of your own volition, which is the only way of doing it.

 

[Apech]

Well now you have learned something new :-)

 What's more I suspect you are coming to that conclusion of your own volition, which is the only way of doing it.

 

To be frank I haven't learned anything at all from discussion with you.  So perhaps I should stop.

[Karl]

To be frank I haven't learned anything at all from discussion with you.  So perhaps I should stop.

 

Please don't go learning from me, that is the very last thing I wish. Take the stuff and go figure out if it's any use. This is precisely what I advocated on AYP and for any other practice, technique or whatever else. Don't go accepting things without examining them. If you are happy to go ahead then do that.

 

What I am offered here on a consistent basis is things that have no definition, cannot be proven and are not accepted as reality by the vast bulk of the population. When I'm not compliant then I'm told I'm resistant, can't be helped etc-well being resistant is normal practice, asking for proof and defining terms is also a normal occurrence. Show me what you are selling is all I'm asking. The barrage for questioning for the use of everyday reasoning is quite astounding. If you were selling a car to me it would be far easier.

 

 

[Jeff]

Now you are at it. How do you mean energy /light flows ? I can perceive light perfectly well otherwise I would be stumbling around in the dark. I can perceive the results of energy flows but I can't see them.

 

We are definitely talking about different things regarding the meaning of "light" (not the visible stuff). Mind if I check out your current chakra/energy body level development, so that I can try to respond more specifically to you?

[thelerner]

Glenn Morrison described Kundalini as a biological affair.   I go by his description.  From KAP 'What is Kundalini'- http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/blog/what-is-kundalini/

 

In 99.99% of people, kundalini goes unharnessed, lying dormant deep within their nervous and endocrine systems. In the unawakened human being, these systems are poorly connected, “rusty,” poorly synchronized, and unable to carry much more “signal” than keeps that person alive.

 

Kundalini awakening occurs when the various parts of the brain, spine, and nerve ganglia, along with the different endocrine glands, begin to rejuvenate, better link, and synchronize. The gonads, adrenals, and digestive glands (connected to the experience of lower emotions) connect to the master glands at the heart, throat, and brain.

 

These systems rapidly rejuvenate, function more efficiently, and begin to carry larger quantities of bio-electric (neurotransmitter and endocrine) traffic through the body. It’s a little like comparing a 56k Modem to a Broadband T1 line. EEG and EKG scans show that “awakened” individuals have more efficient mental and biological processes."

 

me> Quite simply we are bio-electrical beings and Kundalini is a rewiring for higher voltage.  Kundalini's been described for 1000's(?) of years in Yogic circles.  In my mind its a circulation thing, a very powerful, possibly dangerous phenomena that's seen across many cultures. 

 

Don't know much about AYP.  Some people seem to connect to it, others don't  I don't see any problem with charging people to learn about a system.

Edited August 19, 2015 by thelerner

[Karl]

We are definitely talking about different things regarding the meaning of "light" (not the visible stuff). Mind if I check out your current chakra/energy body level development, so that I can try to respond more specifically to you?

 

Knock yourself out, it's going to be somewhat of a struggle to discuss anything. You may as well be telling me you are going to check out my internal unicorns, but I shall humour you anyway.

[Bindi]

Well now you have learned something new :-) Label something 'chicken pox' then it can be investigated. There is fever, itchy spots and the blood contains an identifiable virus. You certainly wouldn't wake up one day and announce you felt chicken pox. You feel awful, feverish, hot, itchy. These things are palpable and a diagnosis can be made that chicken pox is the cause. However if you say you have 'rising damp' or 'woodworm' then you get odd looks and possibly a nice ride to the psyche ward. If you say you are in Love, then that's what you are, but you haven't analysed the emotions that are present. It's possible then to make those perceptual. Maybe you have a sensation of butterflies in the stomach and feel light headed and faint. A doctor can't take a blood sample and diagnose love virus. It's purely an emotional feeling that translates to physical effects which register in awareness. That you are in love and have these sensations is true for you and that you have them is true for the doctor. However this isn't what's going on with the term Kundalini. No one thinks twice if you say you are excited, in love, happy, sad etc, everyone has a rough idea what you mean, but to say you have Kundalini is giving an impression that you have something akin to chicken pox. It isn't just a feeling but a diagnosable reality. Yet you must know this is untrue. It hasn't a concrete form it's just another group of sensations and symptoms in awareness. What's more I suspect you are coming to that conclusion of your own volition, which is the only way of doing it.

 

The Kundalini Syndrome

 

Theorists within the schools of Humanistic psychology, Transpersonal psychology and Near-Death Studies describe a complex pattern of motor, sensory, affective and cognitive/hermeneutic symptoms called The Kundalini Syndrome. This psycho-somatic arousal and excitation is believed to occur in connection with prolonged and intensive spiritual or contemplative practice (such as meditation or yoga). It might also occur spontaneously as a result of intense life experiences or a close encounter with death, such as a near-death experience (Greyson 1993, 2000; Scotton, 1996; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998; Kason, 2000).

 

According to these fields of study the Kundalini-syndrome is of a different nature than a single Kundalini episode, such as a Kundalini-rising. The Kundalini-syndrome is a process that might unfold over several months, or even years. If the accompagnying symptoms unfold in an intense manner—that de-stabilizes the person—the process is usually interpreted as a Spiritual Emergency (Grof & Grof, 1989; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998).

 

Interdisciplinary dialogue within these particular schools of psychology has now established some common criteria in order to describe this condition (see references below).

 

Motor symptoms are thought to include tremors, shaking, spontaneous or involuntary body-movements and changes in respiratory function. Sensory symptoms are thought to include changes in body-temperature, a feeling of energy running along the spine or progressing upwards in the body, a feeling of electricity in the body, headache and pressure inside of the head, tingling, vibrations and gastro-intestinal problems. Cognitive and affective symptoms are thought to include psychological upheaval, stress, depression, hallucinations (inner visions or accoustical phenomena), depersonalization or derealization, intense mood-swings, altered states of consciousness, but also moments of bliss and deep peace (Sannella, 1976; Greyson, 1993 & 2000; Greenwell, 1995; Scotton, 1996; Kason, 2000). Within the mentioned academic traditions this symptomatology is often referred to as the Physio-Kundalini syndrome (Sannella, 1976, Greyson 1993; 2000) or Kundalini-experience/awakening (Scotton, 1996; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998). A roaring noise or other loud auditory hallucination have also been reported (perhaps related to the phenomenon of 'Exploding head syndrome'). Transpersonal literature emphasizes that this list of symptoms is not meant to be used as a tool for self-diagnosis. Any unusual or marked physical or mental symptom needs to be investigated by a qualified medical doctor (Kason, 2000).

 

http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Kundalini

[Karl]

Exactly like a panic attack in a high stress situation.

[Apech]

Exactly like a panic attack in a high stress situation.

 

Hardly.

[Karl]

Hardly.

 

Prolonged orgasm then ;-)

[Jeff]

Knock yourself out, it's going to be somewhat of a struggle to discuss anything. You may as well be telling me you are going to check out my internal unicorns, but I shall humour you anyway.

 

Thanks. Got an accurate picture of things now.  Wont bother you with unicorns.

[Apech]

Prolonged orgasm then ;-)

 

 

Naughty.

[Karl]

Naughty.

 

But nice.

[Nikolai1]

Hi Karl

 

You can't define Kundalini, or spirit and yet you hold two concepts, just noises which are backed by no more than a patch of mental fog. You are building a ton of floating concepts which are insubstantial. 

Actually it's because I hold these concepts so lightly that I spoke of the danger of taking them too seriously in the first place.  This is what happens on the AYP site I think.  Because there is no scepticism surrounding them, no deep sense of their provisionality as concepts, people argue over them too vociferously.

 

The two culprits are: those who defend AYP and those who attack it.   And it can be easily observed that people can pendulum from one to the other until they learn to hold the concepts les strongly and locate truth somewhere else.

[Karl]

Hi Karl

 

 

Actually it's because I hold these concepts so lightly that I spoke of the danger of taking them too seriously in the first place.  This is what happens on the AYP site I think.  Because there is no scepticism surrounding them, no deep sense of their provisionality as concepts, people argue over them too vociferously.

 

The two culprits are: those who defend AYP and those who attack it.   And it can be easily observed that people can pendulum from one to the other until they learn to hold the concepts les strongly and locate truth somewhere else.

 

Well then you have no conviction or commitment at all. If all it is for you is candy floss then you are arguing simply because you want to and not because of any deep seated understanding. I have no issue with that at all, it's rather like a Lion cub play fighting its parent. Quite cute :-)

[Nikolai1]

Well then you have no conviction or commitment at all. If all it is for you is candy floss then you are arguing simply because you want to and not because of any deep seated understanding. I have no issue with that at all, it's rather like a Lion cub play fighting its parent. Quite cute :-)

I still argue, but yes, you are right that my attitude is basically ironic.  I understand that the greatest source of human suffering is attachment to ideas that are unsound.  I onlu hope to get people to hold things less strongly.  Like Buddha said, holding opinions on anything is the greatest source of suffering.  His genius was to show that time, space, self, existence itself are just nothing more than ...opinions.

[Karl]

I still argue, but yes, you are right that my attitude is basically ironic.  I understand that the greatest source of human suffering is attachment to ideas that are unsound.  I onlu hope to get people to hold things less strongly.  Like Buddha said, holding opinions on anything is the greatest source of suffering.  His genius was to show that time, space, self, existence itself are just nothing more than ...opinions.

 

What is disturbing to you about people holding strong views and opinions ?

Buddah-according to you-certainly held a strong conviction that "time, space, self , existence are nothing more than opinions"

[Nikolai1]

What is disturbing to you about people holding strong views and opinions ? Buddah-according to you-certainly held a strong conviction that "time, space, self , existence are nothing more than opinions"

No he didn't.  He repaeatedly, and I mean repeatedly, advised people to hear that teaching and then drop it.  'Do not attempt to carry the raft of my teaching across land.  Drop it at the side of the river.'

 

In reality, you can't drop the raft until you have found the feet to keep walking.  These feet are not intellectual, and they are subtle and hard to find.

 

This is why most Buddhists still repeat Buddha's teaching as if it is Truth.

[Karl]

No he didn't.  He repaeatedly, and I mean repeatedly, advised people to hear that teaching and then drop it.  'Do not attempt to carry the raft of my teaching across land.  Drop it at the side of the river.'

 

In reality, you can't drop the raft until you have found the feet to keep walking.  These feet are not intellectual, and they are subtle and hard to find.

 

This is why most Buddhists still repeat Buddha's teaching as if it is Truth.

 

Have you found them then Mr subtle feet ?

[Nikolai1]

Have you found them then Mr subtle feet ?

After twenty years, Yes.

 

At first the dicovery alternates between the subtle, and the nothing at all.  Now the subtle is always there, always.  I can speak from it because it never goes.  It will grow stronger and stronger.

[Karl]

After twenty years, Yes.

 

At first the dicovery alternates between the subtle, and the nothing at all.  Now the subtle is always there, always.  I can speak from it because it never goes.  It will grow stronger and stronger.

 

I always had feet. Not subtle either. Perhaps I simply denied their existence. ;-)

 

Window, repair, sand, paint, book.

[Apech]

I always had feet. Not subtle either. Perhaps I simply denied their existence. ;-) Window, repair, sand, paint, book.

 

Cupboard, disdain, mud, ink, journal.