Can't get relaxed enough for meditation

[DreamBliss]

Thank you gendao. I think you have made a good point.
 
Found some videos that may help:

(This one is really good!)

(Also good)

 
It seems that some time is needed in practicing kung-fu or yoga is needed before you can plop down into lotus or full lotus. It appears to be all in the hips. I will experiment and report back.
 
Last video, not working for some reason:

Edited August 23, 2015 by DreamBliss

[gendao]

^ Some good basic videos, although stretching is a whole art unto itself that covers a whole lot of technical ground.

But these are still great starting points. Just realize that it's also easy to be deceived into underestimating the difficulty of these stretches. For example, in the first video,

like soft sofa cushions. Whereas, I've been stretching (not butterfly in particular, though) for years now and still can't do that!

And, as you undertake this journey, you will also end up learning a lot more than simply how to get into some "silly" pose... As you will be forced to work through all your psychosomatic sticking points/blockages to get there - which is likely part of its intended purpose.

The password to power is not verbal, it is the action of persistent effort for practically indiscernible progressive gains. Like the quietly relentless action of water wearing down a stone or wind slowly moving a sand dune a mile. This password is difficult to hack and only the sincerely faithful will make the cut in the end. Actions speak louder than words and are the only things that ultimately count...

Of course...if you can find a sustainable shortcut to bypass all this, then more power to you and do tell!!! Edited August 23, 2015 by gendao

[Michael Sternbach]

It seems that some time is needed in practicing kung-fu or yoga is needed before you can plop down into lotus or full lotus. It appears to be all in the hips. I will experiment and report back.

 

But let that knee heal first, and even then, go easy on yourself! I have been doing both Zazen and Yoga, and I would advise against making these postures a top priority for you, much less plopping down into them . Personally, I never found it difficult to assume the lotus in a comparatively slow and relaxed manner, but then, I am the slender and flexible type by nature. I guess my martial arts training helped me too, in the course of which I have done a fair amount of stretching. Nonetheless, I reached a limit when that Indian guy had me stick my both arms through my legs crossed in the lotus, and stand on my hands that way. When he saw one of my arms turning white and the other one red, he told me to release the posture quickly.

[gendao]

But let that knee heal first, and even then, go easy on yourself!

True, but there's a good chance his knee injury was physically due to carrying too much weight and a tight kua, or other myofascial areas.  The main point of opening the kua for full lotus is to take the strain off the knees and ankles.  Because all of the leg rotation should be at the hips, not the knees.

 

So, the process of attaining full lotus would demand releasing such tight areas, vastly increasing flexibility, and losing any excess weight - not to mention all the psychological clearing involved in all these physical changes as well..  All of which would lay a true foundation for pursuing more advanced practices later...

 

But, feel free to agree or disagree.  Just my measly $.02.

[Michael Sternbach]

Gendao,

 

I agree that improving limberness (including working towards the lotus posture) could be part of such a process, however, care should be taken to avoid injury - which would delay any progress greatly.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[DreamBliss]

My knee injury, although I hate to call it that, seems to flare up if I bend my leg while putting weight on it. If I were to do that you would see that a supposedly spiritual person could outswear any sailor in any port!

 

I will certainly be careful in my experiments. But I have been irregularly doing yoga for some time, and I can lay on my back and get one leg, held straight up, almost on the ground. I have not lost the flexibility I have gained in my yoga practice, such as it has been. The only pose I had trouble with was Downward Dog, trying to bend my knee a little (the birds would have been very shocked had I persisted.)

 

My experiments would be to try these training stretches to the extend my knee and legs in general allow. See if I can get my hip to rotate. I have my doubts, but I also have my hopes.

 

To the original poster per the original reason for this thread... I have found that following Mr. Terkel's advice I can sit rather comfortably in a loose cross-legged position without a lot of back pain, and not using a wall. Get your hips higher than your legs, that is key 1. Key 2 is to tuck your chin in. Keep your head straight and just gently bring your chin in without angling your head. These two things will assist your spine in keeping its natural curve, allowing you to sit more comfortably. Watch Mr. Terkel's videos, they will help you.

[DreamBliss]

I have started a thread to assist with this subject:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39191-my-meditation-journey/

[vtrader125]

ok guys, I think I found a position that works for me, bascially sitting on a stool with legs loosly crossed. My back does not hurt and remain straight naturally.

 

But I have been experiencing some strange visual distortions. I start of with eyes open after a few minutes my vision gets strange, everything becomes overly sharp and fuzzy(its like adding to much sharpness in photoshop). Is this normal?

[doc benway]

Yes 

 

Are you working with a particular method?

[vtrader125]

Steve, I'm trying that Art of Mushin program. The first parts is focusing on a object, the second closed eyes breathing into the third eye, the third breathwork the fourth and fifth more about visulisation negative and positive energies in and out. But as I don't have always access to the media because I turn my laptop off, don't look at my phone for an hour before bed. So I do a variation unguided of the first part which is just looking at a blank wall for a few minutes. 

[doc benway]

You will run into many unusual, unexpected, and interesting experiences if you're new to meditation. 

Enjoy the ride!

[C T]

Taking up meditation is not very different from taking up skate-boarding, or dancing. 

 

Awkward in the beginning, fun and tumbles in the middle, and finally, it becomes second nature. 

 

Where there is frustration, know that you are at the beginning. When it starts to get enjoyable, 

coupled with experiences that are strange and confusing, know that you are at the middle;

when the rhythm is established, that is the fruition. It has become habit. 

 

Its a whole process of discovering your own rhythm and merging with it so as to derive a level of ease. 

 

Sometimes, the greatest inspiration comes during the period of disengagement, and not otherwise. 

 

Approach the practice with a young mind -  this helps to maintain playfulness, enthusiasm, and a sense of wonderment. 

 

Try not to over-analyse the moves, or it can get difficult to lift yourself off of first base. 

 

There is no right or wrong - it all comes down to discovering your potential for adjustments to take root. 

 

 

 

It is a long process, so go easy on yourself. Take time to savour both the activity and non-activity, equally. 

 

They both yield results, regardless. 

[FieryWind]

You can also try to sit against a wall of even in a chair to get some back support, to relax the body you need to be thorough in releasing tension trapped in the muscles, joints and nervous system. It's an important step towards entering into meditation, its a preliminary practice. 

 

What is also important is to learn how to relax every moment in regular day to day activities, because if we are tense all day, that tension will be more difficult to release during meditation. So learn how to relax all the time, plus its always better to be relaxed.

[vtrader125]

After a few weeks I can definitly notice the tension in my head, neck and chest. Before it was a normal feeling, now I feel it for what it is a constant tension in those areas. Sometimes for a brief moment if I can get relaxed enough I feel this wave from my head to my neck of movement of the tension feels like a crashing wave. In that moment I feel my neck becoming relaxed before tensioning up again.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Chen Yingning (author of Xian Xue, and creator of the immortality study school of Daoism) thought that posture was not important to the correct practice of meditation.  He said that the reason why the ancients sat cross legged had more to do with cultural habbits than requirements.

His student Hu Haiya advised my teacher Yang Hai to simply sit back in a comfortable chair, close his eyes, and begin to feel the breaths coming and going from his body.   Even just staying like that for a few minutes is good enough to begin relaxing the body and moving into the meditative state.

Remember that in Daoism, the absolute of stillness gives birth to energy, and so if we want to give birth to energy, we have to attain a genuine stillness and quiet.  This can't be done while worrying about posture.

 

Hu Haiya said "meditation is one time when we can attain rest.  Even in sleep, we are dreaming and do not truly rest.  Meditation is when the body can enter rest and repair itself."

 

Now go to that big comfy chair, I know you want to.