suffering tends towards enlightenment

[3bob]

Zerostao,  The use of the word dimensions was for an analogy, - as to how many dimensions (?) well that can be extrapolated in various ways and is not the same in all systems yet points to a similar idea among them.

[3bob]

Karl, you  are wrong concerning the meaning and use of Koans, which is logical but only in your case and not as a truism or generalization.

Edited August 25, 2015 by 3bob

[Brian]

[Karl]

Karl, you  are wrong concerning the meaning and use of Koans, which is logical but only in your case and not as a truism or generalization.

 

Can you explain that ?

 

Something in the way Brian posted ie you can clap on your knee etc, but if we take clapping to mean two hands banging together then we can say that one hand makes no sound on its own, but, as the Koan specifically mentioned 'clapping' ( the act of banging hands together) we can remove the reference completely and say 'what is the sound of one hand?' Which out further reference is nonsense. It's a definition without a definition.

[Nikolai1]

easy, one hand cannot clap. This is what I meant by controlling definitions. You can get people to believe completely contradictory things. Once they have sufficient contradictory experiences you can tell them anything. I have an example put forward by, Dewey (I think) in modern education, in which he wonders exactly what it would take to get children to believe snow is black. Koans are about control in which the student will look to the master for the masters version of reality. It gets obedience from the student and gives power to the master. It's a Svengali.

Listening to you try and explain koans is a truly painful experience. You are so far off the page I cringe for you.

[Karl]

Listening to you try and explain koans is a truly painful experience. You are so far off the page I cringe for you.

 

Well, that's fine Nikolai, but why don't you explain it because it looks like a pile of existential woo woo to me.

 

We are getting some truths here so let's further the investigation.

[Brian]

 

Can you explain that ? Something in the way Brian posted ie you can clap on your knee etc, but if we take clapping to mean two hands banging together then we can say that one hand makes no sound on its own, but, as the Koan specifically mentioned 'clapping' ( the act of banging hands together) we can remove the reference completely and say 'what is the sound of one hand?' Which out further reference is nonsense. It's a definition without a definition.

Your definition presupposes your conclusion.

[Nikolai1]

Well, that's fine Nikolai, but why don't you explain it because it looks like a pile of existential woo woo to me. We are getting some truths here so let's further the investigation.

You are incapable.  Every thing you write broadcasts that loud and clear.  

 

The moment a person 'gets' a koan you are operating from an intellectual plane that is beyond you. They cannot be discussed as ideas.  The truths they reveal are momentary, provisional and therefore eternal.  There are no right answers.  All of this is alien to you.  Why have you not got the basic sense to know when you are so out of your depth.  Even the most vulgar of intellecr will fall silent before the koan, knowing deep down that something important is being asked by the question.

 

But you stumble on, you wretched soul.  You belong with the children. Go to them.

[Karl]

Your definition presupposes your conclusion.

 

Of course it does, because the Koane goes nowhere, it's nonsense.

[zerostao]

that's a little harsh nikolai,    karl certainly would not be the first or last to be told that in order to go forward and experience another level of understanding that he should first empty his cup. periodically i have to empty mine, even if it has a nice brew in it already that is working for me, it is still useful to toss it out of the cup and let something new or different be poured into it

[Karl]

You are incapable.  Every thing you write broadcasts that loud and clear.  

 

The moment a person 'gets' a koan you are operating from an intellectual plane that is beyond you. They cannot be discussed as ideas.  The truths they reveal are momentary, provisional and therefore eternal.  There are no right answers.  All of this is alien to you.  Why have you not got the basic sense to know when you are so out of your depth.  Even the most vulgar of intellecr will fall silent before the koan, knowing deep down that something important is being asked by the question.

 

But you stumble on, you wretched soul.  You belong with the children. Go to them.

 

This is the same thing that every mystic says. 'It's beyond you' and 'we are superior' then a load of vapid commentary which contains nothing of substance. It's all mystical and unknowable by the less enlightened mind of course. If only I was more enlightened I would know the deep significance.

 

[Kubba]

You are incapable. Every thing you write broadcasts that loud and clear.

 

The moment a person 'gets' a koan you are operating from an intellectual plane that is beyond you. They cannot be discussed as ideas. The truths they reveal are momentary, provisional and therefore eternal. There are no right answers. All of this is alien to you. Why have you not got the basic sense to know when you are so out of your depth. Even the most vulgar of intellecr will fall silent before the koan, knowing deep down that something important is being asked by the question.

 

But you stumble on, you wretched soul. You belong with the children. Go to them.

I've benn once to Barry's Brigs Q&A from Zen cambridge center. Someone asked about congans - one teacher said to this student that his answer confan X is good, then some time later, another teacher asked him the same congan and he gave the same answer that previous teacher approved and this time it was wrong.

Barry answeared, that there is no good answer. The function of congan is breaking up the pattern of intellectuall understanding. In this gapes the mind opens up and is one with the cosmos for a moment. Then it tries to find something out back again or grasp that, so one gets another congan that again breaks up patterns of intelectuall understanding.

Peoples tendency is to believe that the only one way to understand thing is through intelectuall discourse of language. We were taught to function this way since children. But when one drops the mind then other kind of understanding happends that is not dualistic. One looks at particular situation and one just knows deeply whats going on- even whats going on inside of the mind of intrlocutor and why he says what he says, so the empathy occures even when its all bullshit. So if one would know what the master actually knows about you, you wold have red face in a second. Its mind blowing abstraction for an oridynary person.

Minds discursive intellect comparing to that power is like an ant against an elephant. It is as if believing that thougt process is all there is, but actually it is just one small part of something much greater and simpler...

[Brian]

Of course it does, because the Koane goes nowhere, it's nonsense.

No, that position is. The koan is intended to encourage one to challenge one's own assumptions and beliefs. In doing so, one might see that there are many meaningful ways to approach it which involve dissolving preconceived notions about "reality."

 

Or you can just dismiss it as "nonsense" because it doesn't fit your concrete rules.

 

If all one has is a hammer, everything must be a nail.

[Kubba]

This is the same thing that every mystic says. 'It's beyond you' and 'we are superior' then a load of vapid commentary which contains nothing of substance. It's all mystical and unknowable by the less enlightened mind of course. If only I was more enlightened I would know the deep significance.

They don't think that they are superior. They even are sometimes embarrased by their knowledge. Its you whou thinks this way.

Usually someone who had controlling and aggresive father or mother by tendency recognise in others a possible danger of taking power over them. Thats where a need of liberation of autorities shows up

[Brian]

This is the same thing that every mystic says. 'It's beyond you' and 'we are superior' then a load of vapid commentary which contains nothing of substance. It's all mystical and unknowable by the less enlightened mind of course. If only I was more enlightened I would know the deep significance.

You don't need to be "more enlightened" (although examination of that term might be enlightening in its own right), but you would certainly benefit from not believing you have discovered a magical tool.

 

[3bob]

Anyway, back to the first post again... It has dangers does it not, for if misapplied in an only idealistic way I think one could get into trouble without advanced preparation along with a certain level of experience and protection to make such a transmutation hold up, otherwise one could just be run over without attaining the fruit of the saying.

[Jetsun]

Of course it does, because the Koane goes nowhere, it's nonsense.

The point of Koans is to bring you to the place beyond the mind, where there is an intelligence greater than the intellect. Buddhists call that intelligence Prajna.

[zerostao]

 

i think so 3bob, there is always danger, prepared or not, without risk what can be gained? and there are stumbles along the way, none said it's gonna be easy

 

[Nikolai1]

 It's all mystical and unknowable by the less enlightened mind of course. If only I was more enlightened I would know the deep significance.

Actually yes! 

 

Your inability to understand is entirely due to your unwillingness to accept anything that doesn't fit your own facile wordlview.  The spiritual quest starts at that point where our trust in your worldview breaks down.  You are incapable of making this step.  If you were capable you would be listening more.

 

As it stands, you are still writing on a forum where you are clearly not valued.  You are incapable of following the conversation. You derail every thread you hit upon because you can't understand what's being talked about.

 

You're just a nuisance.  Why are you actually here?

[3bob]

perhaps preparation like being a lion clothed in sheep skin to meet with a wolf face to face or having an iron hand inside in a silk glove to back up your handshake...

[Brian]

Actually yes!

 

Your inability to understand is entirely due to your unwillingness to accept anything that doesn't fit your own facile wordlview. The spiritual quest starts at that point where our trust in your worldview breaks down. You are incapable of making this step. If you were capable you would be listening more.

 

As it stands, you are still writing on a forum where you are clearly not valued. You are incapable of following the conversation. You derail every thread you hit upon because you can't understand what's being talked about.

 

You're just a nuisance. Why are you actually here?

Personally, I welcome Karl here -- he serves as a literary foil for my own benefit.

[3bob]

Nick, your ego trip about being beyond Karl is getting rather ripe, I suggest getting off it -

[zerostao]

i wouldnt say karl is incapable at all. obviously he is here seeking something. he is putting up a hard rigid exterior maintaining his position, it is hard to let go. let's be patient and see how it all works out. it may take years. he will eventually come to a realization that what Lao Tzu said is true, that the soft always is able to overcome the hard. bend like a willow to the wind not get blown over like an oak

karl is investing a lot of time and energy here, it will pay off for him and we are all learning something in the meanwhile

it is another wonderful day in the tao

[Nikolai1]

I'm pretty active here - yet in six short weeks Karl has posted significantly more than I've done in 3 and half years!!!

 

He has got the time and the frantic desperation to dominate.

 

Most of the threads in General, have deteriorated into the same kind of futile discussion on the role of logic.

 

He's a blight. He just corrupts threads.

 

It could take a long time before he gets bored because he clearly has time on his hands.  And anyone who has reached his age and still has his views is hardly going to be the model of intellectual flexibility.

 

Politely asking him to leave is what I suggest.

[3bob]

Can you explain that ? Something in the way Brian posted ie you can clap on your knee etc, but if we take clapping to mean two hands banging together then we can say that one hand makes no sound on its own, but, as the Koan specifically mentioned 'clapping' ( the act of banging hands together) we can remove the reference completely and say 'what is the sound of one hand?' Which out further reference is nonsense. It's a definition without a definition.

 

Karl, I'd say you just hit on a very important point in your response above but probably didn't mean to (?) namely with your words of  "no sound",  so I suggest considering that point along the lines of how can sound exist without no sound in sense of very well defined spaces or timings of no sound between myriad variations of notes, otherwise there would be no distinct sounds or music   

 

(and in a way try to extrapolate that to mind and no-mind without taking the "no" to literally just as some people sometimes take the words "empty" and "nothing" to literally)

Edited August 25, 2015 by 3bob