How to Avoid Crippling Passivity in Taosim

[Michael Sternbach]

Wu wei means getting out of your own way, then letting inspiration act through you. Acquired knowledge and skill may play a role insofar it has sunken deeply into your unconscious mind.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

Wu wei means getting out of your own way, then letting inspiration act through you.

You know, that sounds weird.  It's true, but it still sounds weird.

 

Almost as if there are two "you"s.  And that's almost true too.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Being spontaneous can also mean having no direction. Not thinking can also mean not being wise since wisdom is precisely thinking about things carefully. Doing what you want to do in a way that will be successful based on having thought carefully.

Exactly this is a dangerous pitfall. Some people (this includes my 16 to 19 year old self after reading The Tao of Poo and just after finding DDJ completely impenetrable) play with daoist philosophy just about enough to justify being irresponsible and childish.

Daoist practices as i've met them point to promoting "if you're to do something do it well in the most unforced, wasteless and efficient manner available to you, for the benefit of more than you". If you dont see anything to do, dont do anything but conserve energy, for you and others.

This perhaps is a rough summary of what i've gleaned through martial arts, whose goal is to achieve gong fu, meaning excellent and appliable skill acquired through diligent and persistant work. The body is trained, the mind is trained and both grow strong and wise together in my experience, leading to a refinement of character, deepening of understanding and analysis and a sense of being part of everything. If you can see problems that means you're at least a part of the solution richer. The rest boils down observation, research and not jumping to conclusions.

 

But, when wu wei for living is ideally refined far enough, then you are free as the wind because you've broken your fetters. The wind plays in trees, caresses water, whistles around the corners of houses and turns for mountains. The wind brings the support of all earthly life - water - to where it can according to the disposition of the landscape. So never, even in freedom, a person is disconnected from the Tao.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Rara]

I am finding in my reading of Taoist passages that they can be interpreted to do nothing. 

 

This is I think what wuwei means.  

 

Also the idea of wanting nothing means one has less desire to do anything because activity is motivated by desire. 

 

If we let go of the world, what reason is there to do anything?  Why strive for anything? 

 

I would like to find a way out of this dilemma because it tends toward boredom and lack of fulfillment, giving up on life.  A kind of living suicide. 

 

Do we become like the "Fool on the Hill" or "Nowhere Man" from the Beatles' songs?

 

Is this is a temporary stage or misunderstanding on the road to understanding the Tao? 

Put that book down and go and do something you enjoy.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Put that book down and go and do something you enjoy.

 

<3

[dawei]

You really cover several very important points.. all true

 

But I think each person will likely align with one in most cases... but more than one is going to happen too.

 

Exactly this is a dangerous pitfall. Some people (this includes my 16 to 19 year old self after reading The Tao of Poo and just after finding DDJ completely impenetrable) play with daoist philosophy just about enough to justify being irresponsible and childish.

 

Yes... maybe this is the 'newbie' experience...   Doing nothing is great    I'm really free [from responsibility]

 

Daoist practices as i've met them point to promoting "if you're to do something do it well in the most unforced, wasteless and efficient manner available to you, for the benefit of more than you". If you dont see anything to do, dont do anything but conserve energy, for you and others.

 

This has a Zen flavor but I like the point being made...

 

This perhaps is a rough summary of what i've gleaned through martial arts, whose goal is to achieve gong fu, meaning excellent and appliable skill acquired through diligent and persistant work.

 

I will concede the importance of this despite my belief in Baopuzi who said 'practice is not natural'...  I think there is a role for practice to restore [ziran] naturalness flow. 

 

 

The body is trained, the mind is trained and both grow strong and wise together in my experience, leading to a refinement of character, deepening of understanding and analysis and a sense of being part of everything. If you can see problems that means you're at least a part of the solution richer. The rest boils down observation, research and not jumping to conclusions.

 

If the training is leading to a more scientific approach then that is fine to apply it... but there is another outcome/path

 

But, when wu wei for living is ideally refined far enough, then you are free as the wind because you've broken your fetters. The wind plays in trees, caresses water, whistles around the corners of houses and turns for mountains. The wind brings the support of all earthly life - water - to where it can according to the disposition of the landscape. So never, even in freedom, a person is disconnected from the Tao.

 

And you nice describe a continuum to a spiritual journey unfolding...  not just with nature but with Dao itself.

 

The end analysis, for me... is that none of all of this matters (in the end)... it is a log we keep of our journey; a log book of passing certain points... the end goal [at least in my opinion] is we are simply at ONE with circumstances unfolding.

 

And I will go as far to say that there is a point where the circumstance doesn't matter anymore as that is yet just a stage.

 

All these experiences are meant to dissolve the stages and levels and restore singularity... no separation.

[topaz]

Put that book down and go and do something you enjoy.

Reading books is what I enjoy. 

 

Maybe it's time for you to turn off your computer and go do something you enjoy. 

[Marblehead]

Reading books is what I enjoy. 

 

Maybe it's time for you to turn off your computer and go do something you enjoy. 

I really do try to avoid giving people advice but it seems that doing so pops up naturally when we are in conversations.

 

You got a problem?

 

I've got the solution.

 

It allows us to think that we know something that we should share.

 

Most are with good intention.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

You really cover several very important points.. all true

 

But I think each person will likely align with one in most cases... but more than one is going to happen too.

 

 

 

Yes... maybe this is the 'newbie' experience... Doing nothing is great I'm really free [from responsibility]

 

 

 

This has a Zen flavor but I like the point being made...

 

 

 

I will concede the importance of this despite my belief in Baopuzi who said 'practice is not natural'... I think there is a role for practice to restore [ziran] naturalness flow.

 

 

 

 

If the training is leading to a more scientific approach then that is fine to apply it... but there is another outcome/path

 

 

 

And you nice describe a continuum to a spiritual journey unfolding... not just with nature but with Dao itself.

 

The end analysis, for me... is that none of all of this matters (in the end)... it is a log we keep of our journey; a log book of passing certain points... the end goal [at least in my opinion] is we are simply at ONE with circumstances unfolding.

 

And I will go as far to say that there is a point where the circumstance doesn't matter anymore as that is yet just a stage.

 

All these experiences are meant to dissolve the stages and levels and restore singularity... no separation.

Yes and thank you.

I know i went a little bit Zen there (it's like cursing in church i know but koans always made ma laugh, i cant defend myself against that type of charm) but the Zen part of buddhism and Taoism seem to share a kinship inside me (little brother and older brother respectively), although i am of the opinion that the two are different. How is hard for me to explain because i lack depth in terminology and rigour so pinches of salt numbering the amount you prefer.

The gong fu quote relates directly to the zen-ish snippet above it, i was referring to my zentalk as a rough summary, but its the beginning of practice through following and following through. The gong fu i think about is the being at one with circumstances you mention, the aquired skill is the effortlessness and balanced action whereby wu wei begins. Life and Tao skills. Practice is not natural, but neither are many parts of my life, so perhaps practice should be seen as the return? Understanding is unlearning.

In martial arts this would mean being able to know heart, body and power and what amounts of what is enough for a situation, like cooking or steering your boat.

Like being able to sleep well enough to truly rest and being so natural in conserving ones energy that only few hours of rest are necessary. Where clarity of mind is like lightning without clouds.

 

Scientific outcome yes, in a way, but moreso perhaps in the methodological approach than the result, i was trying to keep that part open but i acknowledge what you're pointing at fully. I think it's about understanding and heart and the three treasures of Lao Zi and using all of the various energies wisely.

 

Concerning the end analysis i have a similar view to yours, i just didn't want to make my wall of text any higher and also i'm nowhere near any end of anything so what do i know? I realize every second of writing this how hard i try because words fail me, i cant say this right enough even so i just say it and we'll see

Edited August 31, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[woodcarver]

Live and learn. Human nature is pretty cool.

[Rara]

Reading books is what I enjoy.

 

Maybe it's time for you to turn off your computer and go do something you enjoy.

You missed my point entirely.

 

Try this one then. Go and read something on a different topic.

 

As for the sting in your tail, why ask for advice if you're not prepared to listen to it.

 

And FYI, I'm on a phone. Taking time out to give people advice, which is rare these days. If you can't appreciate this then I am very sorry for you.

[topaz]

 

But, when wu wei for living is ideally refined far enough, then you are free as the wind because you've broken your fetters. The wind plays in trees, caresses water, whistles around the corners of houses and turns for mountains. The wind brings the support of all earthly life - water - to where it can according to the disposition of the landscape. So never, even in freedom, a person is disconnected from the Tao.

The wind also does not have to watch its daily budget so it does not run its credit cards up. The wind does not have to contend with badly trained dogs who attack it, nor with cops looking for bribes.

[topaz]

 

 

Try this one then. Go and read something on a different topic.

 

As for the sting in your tail, why ask for advice if you're not prepared to listen to it.

 

 

Try this one then. If someone does not appreciate your --ahem-- advice, try not responding to him anymore.

[Brian]

 

The wind also does not have to watch its daily budget so it does not run its credit cards up. The wind does not have to contend with badly trained dogs who attack it, nor with cops looking for bribes.

Precisely.

[MooNiNite]

Also the idea of wanting nothing means one has less desire to do anything because activity is motivated by desire. 

 

If we let go of the world, what reason is there to do anything?  Why strive for anything? 

 

Letting go of worldly desire does not mean doing nothing. It means taking responsibility so that one can create the silence necessary to actually follow their heart. Instead of being split many different ways. 

[PLB]

The instruction to not do something is often associated with a closing or constriction. To have it be associated to an opening of possibility and oppurtunity is the opposite of acceptance or passivity.

It turns out freedom really messes up how you think about freedom.

Nature never promised it would be easy.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

The wind also does not have to watch its daily budget so it does not run its credit cards up. The wind does not have to contend with badly trained dogs who attack it, nor with cops looking for bribes.

 

Brian already covered the obvious point

But i hear you. So, what can you do about mountains? You might want to smash your head against them for being in your way. What else?

 

The cost of living is virtually unavoidable.

Why do dogs attack you? What can you do about police looking for bribes, do they have untouchable leverage? What are your options? If it's through work you might talk to a colleague or your boss, might not be the first time and there might be a plan in motion for it?

Sounds like your daily life gets pretty intense from time to time, i'm pretty sheltered so my views might be rubbish to you.

 

Dogs are tricky but not impossible, would you be okay with hurting them severely or risking a bite to show them who is boss? Carry a dog repellant, like a strong smelling chemical you can throw in front of them, ammonia was successfully employed by rioters who wanted to confuse and disorient police dogs, not sure how much it hurt the dogs tho (liability for fines or retribution etc)...

Police just plain suck when it comes dealing with them and thankfully i've never had to deal with a corrupt one so im all out of ideas there, except maybe get the hell out of dodge if you can?

[Brian]

Personally, I don't watch my daily budget, I don't run up my credit cards, I've never been attacked by a dog and I've never had a cop try to get a bribe from me.

 

<shrug>

 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, but sometimes those winds get a little stronger than just a gentle breeze.

[forestofclarity]

For me, the Taoist worldview is based on this idea that the universe is, at its core, creative. In the West, we often think of the world as a series of inanimate blocks that we need to manipulate and control. But this is a mistake. There is a power that can spontaneously manifest if only we get out of the way.

 

One of my favorite Taoist stories has to do with the farmer who tried to help his seeds grow by pulling on them. In applying this effort, he in fact ruined his crop. Had he properly practiced wu wei, the crops would have grown under their own power. 

[Orion]

It doesn't mean do nothing, just like nothingness doesn't mean non-existence. It means coming from a place of emptiness, an acknowledgment that there's no "you" doing it, just the Dao. You could be the busiest business person on earth and you'd still just be the Dao in action, though you might have way more ego layers to contend with.

 

Practicing Daoism doesn't mean abandonment. It means sinking into true nature and being that nature (which you already have been this whole time) in whatever it is you do or don't do.

 

There's no "trying" to be passive in Daoism, it's already there, happening as Stillness which observes all action and inaction.

 

That's the irony... it paradoxically does not require you to do anything to get it. And your mind will never get it.

[Rara]

Try this one then. If someone does not appreciate your --ahem-- advice, try not responding to him anymore.

Lol, look, if you want to understand wu wei, The Tao of Pooh puts it very simply.

 

Jeeeeeez.

[manitou]

I would look at this from a 3 treasures perspective. Like has already been said, WuWei is more about harmony than non-action; it's about taking the appropriate action, not no action at all.

  67

All the world says that, while my Tao is great, it yet appears

to be inferior (to other systems of teaching). Now it is just its

greatness that makes it seem to be inferior. If it were like any

other (system), for long would its smallness have been known!

 

But I have three precious things which I prize and hold fast. The

first is gentleness; the second is economy; and the third is shrinking

from taking precedence of others.

 

With that gentleness I can be bold; with that economy I can be

liberal; shrinking from taking precedence of others, I can become a

vessel of the highest honour. Now-a-days they give up gentleness and

are all for being bold; economy, and are all for being liberal; the

hindmost place, and seek only to be foremost;--(of all which the end

is) death.

 

Gentleness is sure to be victorious even in battle, and firmly to

maintain its ground. Heaven will save its possessor, by his (very)

gentleness protecting him.

 

 

Yes, yes, yes!  I love to use the Three Treasures as a measure of my own behavior.  My translation of choice is Yutang:

 

Love

Never Be the First

Never Too Much

 

 

By following the way of the 3 Treasures, by focusing on developing those three within ourselves, it becomes a way of whittling away the undesirable egoistic and selfish behavior within ourselves.  When we become as the uncarved wood of the Dao, we can let life run its course, and because we're not acting out of ego, out of fear, out of arrogance, out of selfishness - because we're not acting out of all that, we're acting out of no-acting.

 

I'm listening to a Tolle CD in my car.  Today he said "Leave.  Life.  Alone".  Or....Let it Be.

 

When I find myself in times of trouble

Mother Mary comforts me,

Speaking words of wisdom,

Let It Be.

 

We're talking about dynamics of action here, not the failure to do what's in front of you.  But once you've gotten yourself clarified, there is no longer any confusion about what to do.  You will feel the tug of right action if that's what's called for at the moment.  I saved a girl's life in a restaurant last month, Heimlich maneuver.  I didn't Let It Be, I took action.  Something inside me came alive, virtually threw me across the restaurant, and acted.  It came from my instinct.

 

My husband recently went through a rough time with his attitude.  Negative, negative, negative.  Talking back to the news on TV all the time, just nasty.  I chose to Do Nothing.  When I would do nothing (and not say anything to him about his negative attitude) and just stay silent, his negative words reverberated through the room and he was able to see them himself.  He finally got tired of his own attitude because I didn't enter the dynamic.

 

There's a big difference between the two.  

[scribe]

In any situation, how do you know what to do? When it's happening, how do you know what will result?

 

I take "anti-passivity" to mean "over-effort", but don't separate it into "physical" or "mental" effort. Over-thinking is like over-pushing or over-eating.

 

We do too much by "nature" - we're trained for it. We multitask, we panic, we write too much.

 

Re-calibrate by doing nothing except watching. After a fashion, you'll know when you're over-doing.

[manitou]

In any situation, how do you know what to do? When it's happening, how do you know what will result?

 

 

Let the action come to you.  Don't jump the gun (never be the first).  Ask yourself what would happen if you did nothing, and start from there.  And the results cannot be known, only intent can be acted upon.  Don't immobilize yourself by worrying about the What If's.  Don't attach your hopes to the outcome.  Don't attach yourself to the outcome at all.  If you are a warrior and seriously walking a path, be impeccable in the present with what is in front of you.  Do not act out of judgment; rather, act out of oneness and love, as though that other person were you.