How to Avoid Crippling Passivity in Taosim

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Was going to write it earlier, but then i thought it was redundant for some reason...

i find myself often arguing the point that spontaneous action is not equal to just f"ckin about randomly with the first thing that comes along, spontaneous action is unhindered by skill and the two fit together like magic. Spontaneous action also an aquired skill in itself (obviously, or else wu wei wouldnt even be a subject right?) but as you guys said earlier, complex actions are being carried out with care for the simple fascination of doing them and that is ideally enough. Any external or applied motivators are soon going to be starting to look like a rule, evolve into an expectation of reciprocation and after comes the blaming and so on... One could even argue spontaneous action with an observing and humble attitude is the foundation of learning.

 

So even with the stuff one doesnt love to do. I hate laundry and doing dishes, but it gets done and i try to be as methodical and relaxed as possible like when i do the stuff i love to do. Having attention "disorder" (i suspect theres at least a small thread to be written about the irony of humans classifying more or less orderly monkeys jumping about from branch to branch and pointing out those that behave not like most of the other monkeys, who we all know are pinnacles of duty and concentration, as disorderly) hinders me in a thousand ways but it gets done, eventually. But i guess the attachment goes many aways, some things we like, somethings we dont and even when theres no good reason for disliking cleaning ones utensils it still affects me on an instinctive level and dishes can stand around for a while here...

 

But i guess theres a wu wei to be found in all that stuff to, it feels even more insipid to say it but something along the ways of "a job well done" so i wont and leave this after-school-special speech end in uncomfortable silence

Edited August 26, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Rocky Lionmouth]

So if the world is marching in lockstep acting like bloodthirsty myopic fools, as they always do, then we do the same?

Of course! And also, if everybody jumps off a cliff or cut their tounges off with rusty scissors - we follow suit. Wu wei is essentially peer pressure and uncriticized obedience, in a nutshell.

Dont you trust the gospels expounded by old yuppies and careerists? Who is this guy? Call the police, we have a dissident! Where is my pitchfork?!

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, had to because it felt like it might be funny, the opportunity was there... No harm meant.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Brian]

But if you see or hear a waterfall ahead you better start swimming.

Yes, it is helpful to be observant and aware of one's environment.

 

[Brian]

Was going to write it earlier, but then i thought it was redundant for some reason...

i find myself often arguing the point that spontaneous action is not equal to just f"ckin about randomly with the first thing that comes along, spontaneous action is unhindered by skill and the two fit together like magic. Spontaneous action also an aquired skill in itself (obviously, or else wu wei wouldnt even be a subject right?) but as you guys said earlier, complex actions are being carried out with care for the simple fascination of doing them and that is ideally enough. Any external or applied motivators are soon going to be starting to look like a rule, evolve into an expectation of reciprocation and after comes the blaming and so on... One could even argue spontaneous action with an observing and humble attitude is the foundation of learning.

 

So even with the stuff one doesnt love to do. I hate laundry and doing dishes, but it gets done and i try to be as methodical and relaxed as possible like when i do the stuff i love to do. Having attention "disorder" (i suspect theres at least a small thread to be written about the irony of humans classifying more or less orderly monkeys jumping about from branch to branch and pointing out those that behave not like most of the other monkeys, who we all know are pinnacles of duty and concentration, as disorderly) hinders me in a thousand ways but it gets done, eventually. But i guess the attachment goes many aways, some things we like, somethings we dont and even when theres no good reason for disliking cleaning ones utensils it still affects me on an instinctive level and dishes can stand around for a while here...

 

But i guess theres a wu wei to be found in all that stuff to, it feels even more insipid to say it but something along the ways of "a job well done" so i wont and leave this after-school-special speech end in uncomfortable silence

Contemplate why you do those things you don't particularly enjoy doing and you'll probably find you want to do them, too.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

We are talking about swimming TOWARDS the waterfall right?

[Brian]

Of course! And also, if everybody jumps off a cliff or cut their tounges off with rusty scissors - we follow suit. Wu wei is essentially peer pressure and uncriticized obedience, in a nutshell.

Dont you trust the gospels expounded by old yuppies and careerists? Who is this guy? Call the police, we have a dissident! Where is my pitchfork?!

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, had to because it felt like it might be funny, the opportunity was there... No harm meant.

I lul'd.

[Brian]

 

We are talking about swimming TOWARDS the waterfall right?

You get a better trajectory that way...

[Rocky Lionmouth]

You get a better trajectory that way...

 

Feeling the acceleration's pretty sweet too!

[Spotless]

While I fully agree with others on this thread that wu wei doesn't really mean avoiding action, there is in fact a discrepancy between the very spontaneous way of life suggested especially by Chuang Tzu, and the purposeful planning that Sun Tzu recommends. Alright, the latter in a war manual - which, however, is a Daoist text nevertheless and supposedly of use for all kinds of situations. I'm sure there is a way to bridge that gap - if you know the secret, do share it with me, please.

This is the crux of the question/ dilemma

 

It is not avoiding and it is not doing - yet doing is done.

 

One cannot practice this - and the comprehension is not from the side of awareness that thinks "doing".

 

It is participation that " requires nothing of you " - the you that you think you are in time and space.

The moment finds everything happening - with no inertia.

The world becomes tiny because it is all you - you cannot find an end to you or anything that you are not the center of.

That that "is" finds you because you are that that is and you are ever changing - so you will not be bored.

 

But - it takes some getting used to - !

 

Past leaves you.

Future is now.

You are not a zombie of the universe and life is definitely not a trance state - it is super lucid - it is also very settled and at times unsettling because it is radically different while completely natural.

 

It takes time to settle into the changes and find words to describe what is going on.

You can see the problem with translation - very hard to translate.

 

Imagine imagining that simply takes place. You enter imaginations that take place and you are them and could not be otherwise and it is as natural as walking in the skin of the universe.

 

You enter nothing ness and all of you comes to gratitude.

Stillness in gratitude and flow - a flow with no inertia.

 

The disappearing you and the emerging YOU that knows nothing.

 

Slowly the complete dissipation of plan replaced by creative moment happening.

Dissipation of will to moment.

 

Their is no time so nothing is dreary or boring - there is no space so no need to compare and covet.

The relative moves by in titles that you have no positions in.

 

It is so radical that it takes time to see it - no translation comes close to the experience yet when experienced all of the translations are very clear. It is a complex association with those close to you - your feet are both in two worlds - theirs are not - and it is impossible to convey the difference even while they shake their heads as though they understand.

 

It is absolutely breathtaking while absolutely common.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Spotless

[Marblehead]

We are talking about swimming TOWARDS the waterfall right?

Only if you are one of those extreme sports nuts.

[Marblehead]

Feeling the acceleration's pretty sweet too!

Yeah, it's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop when you hit the rocks.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Jusqu'ici, tout va bien... jusqu'ici, tout va bien... jusqu'ici, tout va bi-

 

[Marblehead]

Jusqu'ici, tout va bien... jusqu'ici, tout va bien... jusqu'ici, tout va bi-

I had to look that up.

 

Yeah, so far so good, that's the flying part.  The crunch comes later.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I had to look that up.

 

Yeah, so far so good, that's the flying part.  The crunch comes later.

 

The landing is what matters. I was quoting from the intro of a movie i really like, pardon my french.

I think it's called Hate in english, early Vincent Cassell among others, good stuff!

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I think i killed this, sorry @topaz, returning for a quick CPR-attempt:

 

So how does one do, i mean with the wu wei? Get into flows, align yourself to achieve a purpose or goal without having a hidden agenda, keep to essentials that are useful and within the needs of you and yours and the people in general.

 

But how? We mentioned observation, awareness of surrondings and timing. Is there a system? I know a old time Feng Shui Master who says he has mental systems and strategies to apply to various situations and build his plans from, like a set of templates or possible progressions, based on the I King (I Ching). So for him the Classic of Transformations is a base for most of his actions and ideas, i'm just getting into studying it on my own...

 

Do you guys have some hands-on examples to share?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[gendao]

I am finding in my reading of Taoist passages that they can be interpreted to do nothing.

 

This is I think what wuwei means.

Wuwei means allowing your own true Divine Nature to freely flow, express, and act through (or instead of) you - hence, "you" do nothing.

 

Of course, this is a lot harder than it sounds, because "you" are essentially the obstruction full of conscious and subconscious beliefs and blockages that serve as egoic RESISTANCE to such Divine flow. But all of that has to be cleared out in order to allow your true, spontaneous, divine nature to flow through unimpeded like a superconductor. So, there is actually a lot of (Yang) work involved to first clear yourself out...in order to fully allow (Yin) your true wuwei nature..

 

Otherwise, skipping this step is like "allowing" water to flow through a completely clogged pipe, lol.  No dice!!!

Edited August 27, 2015 by gendao

[Geof Nanto]

I think i killed this, sorry @topaz, returning for a quick CPR-attempt:

 

So how does one do, i mean with the wu wei? Get into flows, align yourself to achieve a purpose or goal without having a hidden agenda, keep to essentials that are useful and within the needs of you and yours and the people in general.

 

But how? We mentioned observation, awareness of surrondings and timing. Is there a system? I know a old time Feng Shui Master who says he has mental systems and strategies to apply to various situations and build his plans from, like a set of templates or possible progressions, based on the I King (I Ching). So for him the Classic of Transformations is a base for most of his actions and ideas, i'm just getting into studying it on my own...

 

Do you guys have some hands-on examples to share?

 

I've found consulting Thomas Cleary's Taoist I Ching to be helpful for the reasons you outline. Out of respect, I only use it when I'm at an impasse, or when I catch myself acting on strong self-will. It's has helped me enormously over the last few decades of my life, though I need to use it less frequently now. Whenever I've approached it in genuine need, it's given me real insight into my situation.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Yueya

[Perceiver]

Wuwei doesn't mean to do nothing.

 

Wuwei means to do exactly what you want - but without thinking about it. It means to experience your natural intuition and creativity flow forth and manifests itself, without having the need to think about what to do and not to do. Beauty, truth and goodness in intuitive action, with absolute silence of the mind.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I've found consulting Thomas Cleary's Taoist I Ching to be helpful for the reasons you outline. Out of respect, I only use it when I'm at an impasse, or when I catch myself acting on strong self-will. It's has helped me enormously over the last few decades of my life, though I need to use it less frequently now. Whenever I've approached it in genuine need, it's given me real insight into my situation.

 

Ok i gotta go get me a Cleary now, everybody swears by it seems

You mean as an oracle? I've been wanting to get into that too, i finally understood from on here how to do it technically at least, not sure i'm in the right frame of mind to consult an oracle yet.

I think it could be employed to construct models of analysis of immediate surroundings (both socially and physically) also, or at least starting from the bagwa. Really gotta ask Mr Feng Shui about this, might not get much of an answer, he's pretty oldschool about his biz.

 

[Geof Nanto]

Ok i gotta go get me a Cleary now, everybody swears by it seems You mean as an oracle? I've been wanting to get into that too, i finally understood from on here how to do it technically at least, not sure i'm in the right frame of mind to consult an oracle yet. I think it could be employed to construct models of analysis of immediate surroundings (both socially and physically) also, or at least starting from the bagwa. Really gotta ask Mr Feng Shui about this, might not get much of an answer, he's pretty oldschool about his biz.

 

Yes, I consult it as an oracle. It's given me plenty of wise counsel over the years. It sounds like you are already familiar with its structure and usage. In any case, Cleary's book includes a comprehensive introduction and he also gives some methods of use and consultation.

[Marblehead]

Wuwei doesn't mean to do nothing.

 

Wuwei means to do exactly what you want - but without thinking about it. It means to experience your natural intuition and creativity flow forth and manifests itself, without having the need to think about what to do and not to do. Beauty, truth and goodness in intuitive action, with absolute silence of the mind.

This, of course, requires us to believe that all our inspirations are going to be good, honest, and not interfere with the life of others in any negative way.

[Michael Sternbach]

This, of course, requires us to believe that all our inspirations are going to be good, honest, and not interfere with the life of others in any negative way.

 

Since wu wei means action in harmony with Dao or our inner self, it can be expected to be constructive and, yes, "good" - although it may not necessarily be seen as such according to conventional standards.

[topaz]

Wuwei doesn't mean to do nothing.

 

Wuwei means to do exactly what you want - but without thinking about it. It means to experience your natural intuition and creativity flow forth and manifests itself, without having the need to think about what to do and not to do. Beauty, truth and goodness in intuitive action, with absolute silence of the mind.

Being spontaneous can also mean having no direction. Not thinking can also mean not being wise since wisdom is precisely thinking about things carefully. Doing what you want to do in a way that will be successful based on having thought carefully.

[topaz]

I must first say that you are holding to, in the first part, a misunderstanding of wu wei.

 

It does not mean "do nothing".  It means to do nothing that is against the natural flow of Tao. 

It could be my problem here is that it is a non-question because I have already achieved this to a some degree. Eventually we get a sense, a gut feeling about something, then our entire lives are infused with that and we get in fewer conflicts with others and fewer unsuccessful situations.

 

But this notion of wuwei tells us what not to do but not what to do.

[topaz]

Wuwei means allowing your own true Divine Nature to freely flow, express, and act through (or instead of) you - hence, "you" do nothing.

 

 

So it is not you but the Tao that is doing things? Rather like giving one's life to Christ and letting Christ guide you. A form of Bhakti?

 

Where do we find these notions of "divine nature" in Taoist writings? Are we adding concepts from other spiritual traditions?

 

Are we just redefining the Tao as the divine or a disembodied god for people who need a god figure but don't want to call themselves Christian. They don't want to say yahweh or Allah etc, so they say "the divine" hoping they can use it as a spiritual storage room and throw all their ideas of goodness into it.

 

If we first say Tao then refer it to "the divine nature" then how do we go searching for this second idea or state?

 

Do we define "the divine nature" as a collection of abstractions: goodness, beauty, etc that really can't be put into practice?

Edited August 29, 2015 by topaz