How to Avoid Crippling Passivity in Taosim

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

The fool on the hill, as far as I know, is a song directly influenced by Zhaungzi (correct me if I'm wrong, think i heard it on npr).

Wu wei isn't a stand along topic, it has to be followed by wu bu wei (action without action).   Wu wei just means staying quiet until things began to change by themselves, it may very well be a code for meditation techniques, or perhaps it is a political encouragement to wait to see what others do to themsevles through their snooping around and infighting.

Remember that the Dao De Jing is also a political text and is about how to govern a nation.  Non action could be very good for the nobleman who wants to keep his life. 

[The Observer]

Passivity is the root of action, activity the root of tranquility. One emerges from the other in a never ending cycle...

[Papayapple]

I couldn't find the thread I was thinking about but I found this one, I hope it will fit here:

Few days ago I've been in a situation in which I feel I should have acted but didn't.

A birthday party. Lot's of youngsters.
I just came in and picked a glass of lemonade. I started talking to a young gal friend whom I didn't see for a long long time. Actually I didn't know most people there, and those that I knew I haven't seen for a year or so. So I was a little intimidated.

So I'm talking to her and a dude walks up to her and SMACKS her in the cheek. Not hard, but still. It wasn't nice. And says something. It was as if he didn't know how to grab her attention any other way.
So it was very very rude, and she was shocked and embarrassed but it didn't look like a terribly vicious attack.

Given that I usually try to stick to my business and more importantly I sensed no real danger to her or me I just told the dude: "hey! this is the last time you've done it to her" in a sort of wimpy, wobbly way. Because I was soo surprised.
OK so nothing happened. But I felt so guilty afterwards for not immediately hitting that bastard with all I've had. I still feel. Really I should have smashed him. That's what should have been done.

So she said she's her friend and it's ok but remained surprised and I could see her being insulted by that.
Later on at night when some guys got drunk one of them pushed her out of the conversation ring with a shoulder. Like it was kindergarden you know? Once again I didn't act. It looked innocent, but at that point I knew this tiny girl was being regularly "bullied" by her male friends.

I am sure I would have acted appropriately had there been more dramatic blows toward her. But that smack man, I kind of think it was enough. Not even with a flower should you hit a woman!
So what was it? Why did I hesitate? I'm afraid it's partially because of my passivity(pussivity really) which comes from a distorted understanding of wu wei.
Or maybe I acted OK and instead my guilt is coming from an egoistic need to be a hero?
What if in reality I didn't feel sorry for her but just wanted to hit an asshole and validate myself? Yeah, that would look cool, cinematic almost.

That's the problem: why do I feel guilty? How do I figure it out and prevent it from happening again?
This is no different than other situations where I had an opportunity and froze for some reason(fear?).
Damn why opportunities always come when I'm least prepared?!
 

[cold]

Leave it.

You can't change the past nor control the future.

[Orion]

You can be in action but have a passive observance of the action.

 

You can be in physical combat but be in a state of acceptance.

 

The external state doesn't necessarily reflect the internal state.

 

Acceptance does not mean passivity.

 

Do something or do nothing. Try or don't try. The Dao is ever present.

 

All this said, there are no rules.

 

"All positions
are prisons.
No truth is true.

No instruction is certain, no knowledge complete.
If I speak for the serpent, the serpent
may speak for the bird. My position
is that I have no position.

This too.
All fictions
Are true."

[silent thunder]

You can be in action but have a passive observance of the action.

 

You can be in physical combat but be in a state of acceptance.

 

The external state doesn't necessarily reflect the internal state.

 

Acceptance does not mean passivity.

 

Do something or do nothing. Try or don't try. The Dao is ever present.

 

All this said, there are no rules.

 

"All positions

are prisons.

No truth is true.

 

No instruction is certain, no knowledge complete.

If I speak for the serpent, the serpent

may speak for the bird. My position

is that I have no position.

 

This too.

All fictions

Are true."

Powerful quote Orion.  where is that from?

[Orion]

Robert Bringhurst. Forgot to put his name in there One of my favourite poems.

[silent thunder]

Thanks. I'll be looking into him some more for sure... powerful stuff.

[Mig]

Sounds like a good system.  Desires connotate attachments.  And even Taoism speaks about attachments.

 

I still use:

 

Needs

Wants

Desires

 

while trying to stay away from desires.

Don't we all have needs and desires? As about wants, that probably you can stay away especially in a merchant system where they push you for wanting, wanting constantly.

[thelerner]

I'm listening to a Tolle CD in my car.  Today he said "Leave.  Life.  Alone".  Or....Let it Be.

 

When I find myself in times of trouble

Mother Mary comforts me,

Speaking words of wisdom,

Let It Be.

Few people know, that Tolle had a short career as the 5th Beatle.

 

 

If you dig Tolle, you might listen to the man he considered his mentor.  Barry Long.  Lots of good dharma talks.  He's a less commercial, in some ways more practical and direct, version of Tolle. 

 

I also like his guided meditation though I tend to start it at the ten minute mark. 

[Mig]

I had to go to the beginning of the thread and wow so much to think about that. Then I found this:

 

In Sima Tan’s view, wuwei – “doing nothing” – does not preclude undertaking affairs (shi 事, “policies”) or responding (ying 應) to the changing environment. And it certainly doesn’t preclude having a positive influence on the people or having achievements (gong 功). The end of Shiji 63 sums up Laozi’s teachings with an “abbreviated quote” from chapter 57[5] of the Laozi: “Li Er (taught that one could) do nothing, (and the people will) transform of themselves; be clear and still, (and the people will) become correct of themselves” (李耳無為自化，清靜自正). Here, the idea is closer to a literal interpretation, for the people[6] are said to transform and become correct by themselves, rather than by the sage or ruler, who, although clearly having an influence, remains still and does virtually nothing.

 

https://baopu81.wordpress.com/

[manitou]

Interesting that this thread is popping up again.  I just had my own action bite me in the arse.  Maybe.

 

There's a lady I often see at the dog park we go to daily - she is deaf and unable to speak.  She does communicate with the microphone function on her phone (which I will speak into) and she types back.  We've become good friends - she is very deeply Buddhist in nature and practice.

 

She doesn't have much money - her last car was repossessed by the company for non-payment.  She had a friend who was willing to sell her a car for $2,000 if she gave $1000 down, and paid her $100 a month until paid off.  She asked me if I would be willing to loan her some money for the down, I told her no, that I didn't loan money.  but I did ask her how short she was on the $1000.  She said $900, lol.  So I gave her $900, telling her it was a gift from the universe, not to mention it to anyone else, etc.  It was between  her and the universe.

 

My heart was more than willing to do this, and in fact was greatly urging me to do so.  These are instincts I follow.

 

 So she bought the car.

 

Now, it turns out that there was a really bad smell to the car, she took it in to a mechanic, and he came up with ​$5,600.00 ​worth of repairs that this junker needs.  she tried getting her money back from the woman and giving the car back (no deal, although Janet, my friend, insists that this woman is a "really good Christian woman and always tells the truth about things").  I also suggested to her that perhaps Janet could at least not owe her the remaining $1,000, but the really good Christian woman wouldn't go for that either.  Claims she had no idea there was anything wrong with the beast.

 

Now my thoughts are this.  If I had just left the situation alone, if I had let her karma do its own thing and not interfered, she may not have gotten saddled with this lemon - something else better may have come to her down the pike.  although I do tend to kick myself in the head a lot.....

[thursday]

Interesting that this thread is popping up again.  I just had my own action bite me in the arse.  Maybe.

 

There's a lady I often see at the dog park we go to daily - she is deaf and unable to speak.  She does communicate with the microphone function on her phone (which I will speak into) and she types back.  We've become good friends - she is very deeply Buddhist in nature and practice.

 

She doesn't have much money - her last car was repossessed by the company for non-payment.  She had a friend who was willing to sell her a car for $2,000 if she gave $1000 down, and paid her $100 a month until paid off.  She asked me if I would be willing to loan her some money for the down, I told her no, that I didn't loan money.  but I did ask her how short she was on the $1000.  She said $900, lol.  So I gave her $900, telling her it was a gift from the universe, not to mention it to anyone else, etc.  It was between  her and the universe.

 

My heart was more than willing to do this, and in fact was greatly urging me to do so.  These are instincts I follow.

 

 So she bought the car.

 

Now, it turns out that there was a really bad smell to the car, she took it in to a mechanic, and he came up with ​$5,600.00 ​worth of repairs that this junker needs.  she tried getting her money back from the woman and giving the car back (no deal, although Janet, my friend, insists that this woman is a "really good Christian woman and always tells the truth about things").  I also suggested to her that perhaps Janet could at least not owe her the remaining $1,000, but the really good Christian woman wouldn't go for that either.  Claims she had no idea there was anything wrong with the beast.

 

Now my thoughts are this.  If I had just left the situation alone, if I had let her karma do its own thing and not interfered, she may not have gotten saddled with this lemon - something else better may have come to her down the pike.  although I do tend to kick myself in the head a lot.....

 

Do you feel like there is a message for you and your friend in this happening? It makes me think of a tiny recent situation myself.. I admire your generosity by the way!

[manitou]

Yes - the message I wonder about is the one I mentioned in my last paragraph - maybe if I hadn't meddled something better would have come along for her.

 

As to generosity - I figured out a while back that money is just stuck energy - energy stuck from somebody's work, in the form of an arbitrary number being printed on a worthless piece of paper; where it remains stuck until it is spent and turned into energy again.  Seems like it always comes back around...

 

In that vein, generosity is easy.  Thanks for your kind words.

[Rara]

I couldn't find the thread I was thinking about but I found this one, I hope it will fit here:

 

Few days ago I've been in a situation in which I feel I should have acted but didn't.

 

A birthday party. Lot's of youngsters.

I just came in and picked a glass of lemonade. I started talking to a young gal friend whom I didn't see for a long long time. Actually I didn't know most people there, and those that I knew I haven't seen for a year or so. So I was a little intimidated.

 

So I'm talking to her and a dude walks up to her and SMACKS her in the cheek. Not hard, but still. It wasn't nice. And says something. It was as if he didn't know how to grab her attention any other way.

So it was very very rude, and she was shocked and embarrassed but it didn't look like a terribly vicious attack.

 

Given that I usually try to stick to my business and more importantly I sensed no real danger to her or me I just told the dude: "hey! this is the last time you've done it to her" in a sort of wimpy, wobbly way. Because I was soo surprised.

OK so nothing happened. But I felt so guilty afterwards for not immediately hitting that bastard with all I've had. I still feel. Really I should have smashed him. That's what should have been done.

 

So she said she's her friend and it's ok but remained surprised and I could see her being insulted by that.

Later on at night when some guys got drunk one of them pushed her out of the conversation ring with a shoulder. Like it was kindergarden you know? Once again I didn't act. It looked innocent, but at that point I knew this tiny girl was being regularly "bullied" by her male friends.

 

I am sure I would have acted appropriately had there been more dramatic blows toward her. But that smack man, I kind of think it was enough. Not even with a flower should you hit a woman!

So what was it? Why did I hesitate? I'm afraid it's partially because of my passivity(pussivity really) which comes from a distorted understanding of wu wei.

Or maybe I acted OK and instead my guilt is coming from an egoistic need to be a hero?

What if in reality I didn't feel sorry for her but just wanted to hit an asshole and validate myself? Yeah, that would look cool, cinematic almost.

 

That's the problem: why do I feel guilty? How do I figure it out and prevent it from happening again?

This is no different than other situations where I had an opportunity and froze for some reason(fear?).

Damn why opportunities always come when I'm least prepared?!

 

I would have said what you said in the first instance then asked the girl if she wanted to leave.

 

It's not the best place to be hanging out by the sounds of it.

[manitou]

If this bullying thing is affecting her repeatedly, there is something there for her to work out.  she may have to experience this over and over until she ceases the need to replay that which probably happened to her in a family situation long ago.  Strangely, that victimization is actually a comfort zone for us - I call it our personal bathtub ring.

[Starjumper]

I am finding in my reading of Taoist passages that they can be interpreted to do nothing. 

 

This is I think what wuwei means.  

 

Also the idea of wanting nothing means one has less desire to do anything because activity is motivated by desire. 

 

If we let go of the world, what reason is there to do anything?  Why strive for anything? 

 

I would like to find a way out of this dilemma because it tends toward boredom and lack of fulfillment, giving up on life.  A kind of living suicide. 

 

Do we become like the "Fool on the Hill" or "Nowhere Man" from the Beatles' songs?

 

Is this is a temporary stage or misunderstanding on the road to understanding the Tao? 

 

 

The ancient sages of the Way lived in wu wei, yet they still had to chop wood and carry water.  They still had to cook and garden and take two day hikes into town to buy toilet paper.  They still had to made their morning tea, and they did their daily chi kung and meditation ... because it was fun.