Sundo & Hyunmoon Kim

[DGA]

Hi all,

 

I'm looking for more information on the US-based "Mountain Taoist" school SunDo, founded and led by Hyunmoon Kim.  www.sundo.org 

 

Has anyone here had any experience with this practice, under this teacher's direction? 

 

Any insight on how this practice fits in to the broader category of Taoist practice?  I'm wondering if this is an outlier from the mainstream, or if it's representative of Taoist practice generally.

 

Thank you.

[liminal_luke]

I did the practice briefly some years ago. Attended one "mountain retreat" in Virginia, I think it was. Anyway, I think it´s a great method even though I didn´t keep it up. I´m far from an expert but happy to answer any questions about my experience. Believe Trunk has also experienced the system.

 

Liminal

[liminal_luke]

Thought I´d say a little bit more. As you probably know, the practice is structured with a warm up routine, followed by a series of postures held for a specific amount of time with specific breathing, and finally a standard energy circulating routine at the end. It´s all very choreographed. The middle portion with postures and breathing changes as one advances through the system.

 

There´s a lot of emphasis on breathing into the lower dan tien. It takes patience and work, but if you devote yourself to it there´s no doubt in my mind that it could take you very far.

 

The culture around the practice is very "Sundo is all a person needs." For better or worse, I´m someone who likes to explore widely and integrate bits and pieces from what I pick up into my personal practice. That´s arguably not the best approach, but it´s what I´ve done, and for that reason the orthodoxy of "just do Sundo" didn´t work for me.

 

Liminal

Edited August 27, 2015 by liminal_luke

[DGA]

Thanks for the helpful insights.

The culture around the practice is very "Sundo is all a person needs." For better or worse, I´m someone who likes to explore widely and integrate bits and pieces from what I pick up into my personal practice. That´s arguably not the best approach, but it´s what I´ve done, and for that reason the orthodoxy of "just do Sundo" didn´t work for me.

Liminal

 

Is this expectation often helpd by Taoist schools and teachers generally, or is this an extraordinary case?

[liminal_luke]

Oh, well I think it´s pretty common anyway. And not necessarily a bad thing. It actually does make some sense to commit to a system and see where it takes you. Otherwise you risk cobbling a practice together on your own whose parts might not work together optimally -- or at all. There´s also the danger of flitting from spiritual flower to spiritual flower and never really getting anywhere because you´re always moving on.

 

Anyway, I wouldn´t let my reservations stop you. They are more about the fit between my personality and the system, and might not apply to you at all. I think SunDo is a legitimate system, and if your attracted to it I don´t think you´ll regret checking it out.

 

One more note: SunDo is a very physical system. It´s challenging physically, and a good work out for the body. Which isn´t to say it´s not spiritually potent as well. Just a very different kind of a practice from meditation which involves just sitting still and doing something (or not doing something) with your mind.

Edited August 27, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Trunk]

I'm a bit late to the thread here. I have a little direct experience (a few practice sessions in group, a couple of lectures watching Master Kim) and I have friends who have been more consistently involved. It is a very lower dan tien focused system, really focuses the breath and attention there while integrating that with a balanced set of postures and exercise that helps circulate what you're building. I'd say that it reflects a traditional Taoist approach of establishing a good lower dan tien as foundational. This system takes that seriously.

 

It is impressive to see Master Kim. He is of good cheer, but it's also clear that he is serious. Also, he is impressively physically... strong, fluent somehow.

 

He was talking about "authentic" Taoism... How there is Pepsi and all those fizzy flavorfull drinks, and that people were more and more discovering drinking just water. "authentic Taoism is tasteless", he says some good things that are on the mark. And not just a few good things, there is depth and serious training behind him.

 

I was never far enough into the sun do culture to know of any strengths / weaknesses of the micro-culture of that group.

 

- Trunk

Edited November 26, 2015 by Trunk

[Antares]

It is a very lower dan tien focused system, really focuses the breath and attention there while integrating that with a balanced set of postures and exercise that helps circulate what you're building. I'd say that it reflects a traditional Taoist approach of establishing a good lower dan tien as foundational. This system takes that seriously.

 

I am afraid there is no such thing as focusing breath and attention on the lower dan tien in Daoism. Kouk Sun Do is purely Korean system and has no any relation to the authentic Daoism. Building the foundation in traditional Chinese schools means work with precelestial qi in the very beginning, but breath work with attention on LDT has no any relation to these methods

[liminal_luke]

Practitioners of Sun Do consider their system Taoist, and I see no reason not to take them at their word. Why define Taoism so narrowly?

[Taoist Texts]

 and has no any relation to the authentic Daoism. Building the foundation in traditional Chinese schools means work with precelestial qi in the very beginning, but breath work with attention on LDT has no any relation to these methods

Is it an IMHO? You know, as in 'totally unsubstantiated IMHO'? Because it strangely sounds like one.

[Antares]

Practitioners of Sun Do consider their system Taoist, and I see no reason not to take them at their word. Why define Taoism so narrowly?

 

I had a chance to talk to the main korean teacher of Kouk Sun Do (not Sun Do) and he said that this system is 9000 years old and has its origin in Korea. So he does not consider this system as Daoist. Sun Do is simplified american version of the Korean Kouk Sun Do.

 

 

Is it an IMHO? You know, as in 'totally unsubstantiated IMHO'? Because it strangely sounds like one.

 

No, this is not IMHO. I personally familar with methods of 2 Daoist schools and there are nothing akin to KSD's methods in both of them. Also we have people who are students of a few other Chinese Daosit schools and there are no breath methods akin to KSD' methods. All these methods with putting attention on the LDT with breath come from qigong and yoga but has no relation to Neidan. Latter is based on other principles and methods differ noticeably from KSD. The reason is that breath relates to the postcelestial and it can't affect precelestial. Building the foundation in Neidan is based on work with precelestial qi which in its turn affects postcelestial but not the other way around.

Best regards  

Edited November 27, 2015 by Antares

[Bubbles]

Taken from the Kuksundo website :

[Taoist Texts]

  All these methods with putting attention on the LDT with breath  .... has no relation to Neidan.  

 

If it stops, it then stops behind the hall of the navel and in front of the Gate of Ming  In between these two and slightly below there is a circle of empty non-being. My heart-and-mind stops here and practises inner observation of it. The heart-and-mind shines into the void. It combines with the qi 56 and [the two] protect each other. It is held fast between the compass and the L-square, comes and goes inside the square and circle.With every breath it returns to the root and unites with the spontaneous transformations.

 

(Huimingjing, Nicholson)

[Antares]

With every breath it returns to the root and unites with the spontaneous transformations.

 

Here nothing is said about bringing attention to the LDT and forming DT by breath, but is said that this happens spontaneously.

Best regards

[Taoist Texts]

  Why define Taoism so narrowly?

 

They shoot for the box on the right. Its a poorly executed marketing strategy, whereas they try to exclude everything else to position their product as the only true Taoism. Which is of course easily disprovable.

[liminal_luke]

Some years ago I attended a "mountain retreat" led by Hyunmoon Kim, and I can assure you there was nothing watered-down about the experience. We can debate about the exact definition of "Taoist," but one thing is for sure: long-term practitioners of SunDo get results, and they should -- they´ve worked hard for them.

 

Liminal

[Antares]

Some years ago I attended a "mountain retreat" led by Hyunmoon Kim, and I can assure you there was nothing watered-down about the experience. We can debate about the exact definition of "Taoist," but one thing is for sure: long-term practitioners of SunDo get results, and they should -- they´ve worked hard for them.

 

Liminal

 

Personally for me there seems to be a way too much "asanas" (forms) in Sun-Do. But it does not mean it gives the same results as it does in Neidan. The question is whether it is reverse or onward perfection of a practitioner

[Wu Ming Jen]

More closely related to Martial Grand Circulation is the practicing of the Four Gates Breathing. It is the practice of leading of Qi with each breath and it is a traditional martial arts technique. In Four Gates Breathing, first inhale deeply, then exhale while imagining that you are pushing a heavy object with your hands and pressing your heels through the floor. It is important to stay physically relaxed. This causes Qi to flow through your arms and legs, but it won't consume the energy the way tensed muscles do. Continued practice will build up your nerves' sensitivity, and eventually this technique should create an electric, tingling sensation through your limbs. It is possible to accomplish this without breathing, but using breathing to lead Qi makes this process much easier.

 

There is no traditional systems that divorces the breath from movement and stillness.

 

At higher levels mind and body rest on each other. If the breath is rough use the mind to correct. If the mind is scattered then use attention to breath to correct.

 

Sun Do is a legitimate school from Korea Most would like to have a national identity as in being not from China. 

Same with Akido when the founder was taught Ba Gua in China. It works out that for the nation Akido is only a Japanese art in origin.

[Ormus]

On their website they write to teach Inner Alchemy but I dont know if they mean Nei Dan.Can someone clear this for us?

 

Ormus

[damdao]

On their website they write to teach Inner Alchemy but I dont know if they mean Nei Dan.Can someone clear this for us?

 

Ormus

 

This can help you to trace Chinese neidan lineages in Korea, if you don't know it already:

https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=KVv4CwAAQBAJ&pg=PT172&lpg=PT172&dq=choi+chi+won+solitary+sage&source=bl&ots=rQkMnV1LeF&sig=OoxecPv8oarODTsG3xS_taMhixM&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrl-PZ7efRAhXJh5AKHYDsCroQ6AEIXDAO#v=onepage&q&f=false

Other resources involves research in Hwarang origins and are mostly in Japanese and Korean.

[Starjumper]

I was a student of Hyunoong Seunim in Seattle for about six months, till he left for California.  He said nothing about Sun Do being the only way or a stand alone practice as he was also a Zen master.  The practice was OK but not very vibrant.  He left Seattle right after he analyzed my astrological chart according to his system.

 

I loved the recording of the chant that they used for timing and wish I could get a copy of that.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Starjumper