A punch in the face

[Brian]

Right, so we're in the choices territory -- that's the whole idea, I wanted to explore what other people would do with options available, and compare them to the choices I made. Thanks for your take.

 

To elaborate -- the encounter was not in the teaching situation, it was an informal gathering just to practice this and that together. We planned a tea ceremony after that. So my real choice of the moment was between saying or doing something and marring the spirit of the ceremony ahead, or absorbing it as though it didn't happen and filing away the IOU. I chose the latter. Other people's mood was my main rationale for choosing this way. I knew I could handle it, I didn't have to make a production of it, but I didn't have to pretend to myself that I didn't fully grasp the situation. So I chose to let it slide, not out of any lack of righteous indignation or -- for a second -- blinding rage, immediately under control though -- but out of a conscious decision to not drag anyone else into these feelings, including the perpetrator. I actually feel I handled it quite well, but there's a part of me that remembers the times I would handle it differently... and it is frustrated not because of the incident, but because of nostalgia for the "untamed" someone I used to know -- someone I used to be.

 

Someone who had far less wisdom, and far more freedom to express a lack thereof.

Ah. The situation was other than I imagined. In either case, I think your approach was an appropriate choice but, as others have/will point out, perhaps there are multiple appropriate choices.

 

Given the circumstances, my nature would be to not make a scene or get even. My first thought was to avoid the need for conflict at any level and to plainly state intention and reason if pressed. My second thought, and this seems more fitting under the conditions you describe, would be to view her as a case study -- but only if I were confident in being able to avoid losing my temper and hurting her.

 

That's my overarching motivation in either course of action -- do no harm.

[doc benway]

He (or it could well be a she) who throws the punch is not punishing you (the generic 'you'). Its self-punishment, if one wants to call it that. The Buddha said that if someone offered a gift, and if this gift is diplomatically declined, who then does the gift belong to? When declined in the most correct way, that which was offered will not even be seen as a 'gift', nor the bearer seen as one who has attempted to present it. After such an exchange, no residue remains. No yin, no yang. No need for unnecessary post-analysis after the fact. Its gone... done and dusted. If there is residual pondering, only then does karmic imprint and subsequent mental continuum and karmic traces begin to form. 

 

 

Sometimes, the only way to 'help' the aggressor, and yourself, is to punch back. And immediately, forget it ever happened. 

 

Although peace, love and compassion are touted as pillars of practice in Buddhism, such are not to be confused with becoming a punching bag, or a door-mat. Hitting a person out of sheer anger is easy. Flailing your arms in response to reactionary emotions is quite the habitual norm. Try hitting a person with perfect equanimity within... This then is the premier séparateur.

 

The way of Buddhism is not set in stone... it is a flexible path, a training in the perfection of response without traces, allowing for action where action is deemed appropriate. Appropriate and exacting responses that elicit mutual benefit require, firstly, a trained mind. 'Mutual benefit' must be the key factor at the forefront of all responses, be it from body, speech or mind. Essentially, this is achieved through the proper balance of wisdom & compassionate practices. 

 

A trained mind rests effortlessly in the middle, neither yin nor yang, even in the midst of great conflict & turmoil. 

 

A trained mind knows when and how to act appropriately, under all circumstances. 

 

A trained mind is not to be confused with a limp, docile demeanour... on the contrary, remaining always open, it neither accepts nor rejects, simply allowing for all energetic exchanges to arise and subside with little to no need for hindsight. Hindsight is for those with too much time on their hands. Hindsight and regrets are like a pair of terrible twins. 

 

Contemplating ceaselessly (meditating) on impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self, karma does not accrue in such a mind. This is the path of the thus-gone. 

 

Very nice response, CT.

 

I'd like to focus on one area - "A trained mind knows when and how to act appropriately, under all circumstances."

 

That knowing is quite interesting. I've come to question whether that trained mind "knows how to act" or whether the trained mind knows how to let go, such that the action occurs of itself, coming from beyond the mind as we generally know it. No matter how well trained the mind is, it remains the mind - limited and imperfect.

 

My teacher emphasizes the connection to that space where such perfected action (given that it is occurring of itself, I think of it as non-action) comes from. Having spent quite a bit of time working with first Daoist then Buddhist (Bön) methods - I believe they are pointing in the same direction --> wu wei and perfected (enlightened) action.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

From a pragmatic point of view, you are in a situation where you are being punched at.

You have choices such as:

- trying to block or dodge the punch

- rolling with the punch as it lands

- recovering quickly from the punch

- being able to handle the adrenaline dump that comes with being hit

- arranging the correct situation under which to either fight or take flight.

 

These things although they do have some superficial relationship with the idea of karma are better arranged according to natural feeling and ability.

If you have no experience being smacked around, it will be best to get away as fast as possible.

If you are a swat team guy or a seal, you might just move your head slightly and then put your knife into the dude's gut without him even noticing.

All of these things have a great deal of relationship with experience, and as such, experience becomes the karmic law of the situation.  

karma needs to become a pragmatic thing at some point and not a law of spiritual culpability.

if you treat karma as cause and effect, when that punch comes flying in, there will have been a reason for it.  The way you react to it will be related to your own understanding of the situation and ability to respond to it.

A great deal of this is wrapped up in responding rather than reacting.

spirituality should be practical rather than superstitious, karma is the practical application of cause.

[Michael Sternbach]

However, internal conflicts are much more difficult to solve than external ones.

 

Example.  I was practicing push-hands with a very aggressive woman a couple of weeks ago.  She only wants to win, always, for all purposes and in all circumstances -- well of course this is a sign that she feels like a loser inside, but so what -- she is strong as a horse and stubborn as a mule, and not fully external in her taiji at that -- her skill is 95% external but the 5% of internal accomplishments give her a very strong (albeit only vertical, fancy-free) root which she can reinforce with all her considerable li (muscular strength) and a bit of fajin (in the beginner, long jin stage).  Not a difficult opponent for someone who has more of the internal goodies -- except she is also cunning and treacherous and very, very hostile under a mask of total friendliness and sweetness.  She is the type who will always praise you to your face and try to win you over with thoughtful presents and sweet-talk you into friendship and stab you in the back the second an opportunity presents itself. 

 

So, we were practicing in the park, and someone else who needed my attention for a moment called me to say something, I stopped the practice and turned to the source of the distraction, naively expecting my partner to do likewise, like normal sparring partners do.  Instead, she fajined into my shoulder, leaving a bruise the size of her iron palm.  What do you reckon my options are at this point?  I know everything about her internal conflicts, she's a borderline personality disorder -- so, I am curious to hear what it is I'm supposed to do with this knowledge.  Seriously.  What would you folks do in my shoes?

 

Unless you are a beginner or a practitioner of "flower power Taiji", when you are doing push hands, you must consider yourself in a combat situation. But you obviously didn't regard it as such, otherwise you could never have turned away to address somebody's request. How polite and considerate of you! But that practitioner, when she is in combat mode, is not polite and considerate, she is acting from her reptilian brain which takes no prisoners! Consider that you may be misreading her when you think of her as a treacherous bitch - she could genuinely be a kind person under most circumstances but turning into a fierce warrior when engaged in combat.

 

Be that as it may, there was an opening in your guard and she showed it to you in a way you would remember. I think there was a good reason why your instructor had you work out with that lady...

 

When you happen to train with her again, don't let anger or fear control you - but show her that you have learned your lesson and make her respect you.

[doc benway]

However, internal conflicts are much more difficult to solve than external ones.

 

Example.  I was practicing push-hands with a very aggressive woman a couple of weeks ago.  She only wants to win, always, for all purposes and in all circumstances -- well of course this is a sign that she feels like a loser inside, but so what -- she is strong as a horse and stubborn as a mule, and not fully external in her taiji at that -- her skill is 95% external but the 5% of internal accomplishments give her a very strong (albeit only vertical, fancy-free) root which she can reinforce with all her considerable li (muscular strength) and a bit of fajin (in the beginner, long jin stage).  Not a difficult opponent for someone who has more of the internal goodies -- except she is also cunning and treacherous and very, very hostile under a mask of total friendliness and sweetness.  She is the type who will always praise you to your face and try to win you over with thoughtful presents and sweet-talk you into friendship and stab you in the back the second an opportunity presents itself. 

 

So, we were practicing in the park, and someone else who needed my attention for a moment called me to say something, I stopped the practice and turned to the source of the distraction, naively expecting my partner to do likewise, like normal sparring partners do.  Instead, she fajined into my shoulder, leaving a bruise the size of her iron palm.  What do you reckon my options are at this point?  I know everything about her internal conflicts, she's a borderline personality disorder -- so, I am curious to hear what it is I'm supposed to do with this knowledge.  Seriously.  What would you folks do in my shoes?

 

Going back to the taiji principles, I think the optimal response is to learn from the error - invest in that "loss."

 

Your error was to assume your opponent would back off just because you did.

She did not... a very valuable lesson.

I learned it well once and my nose still has a funny bump as a result.

In the long run that lesson was much more valuable than any immediate gratification from escalating the conflict could have been.

 

It's very interesting how much we learn about people and what they're made of when we train with them in martial arts.

In my experience, people have some idiosyncrasies that can be irritating, or worse, but change only very slowly over time.

Confronting people and escalating conflict only seems to reinforce them.

Occasionally, candid discussion can be productive but not all that often.

 

Best to learn what people are capable of and how they tend to react, and deal with them as that information dictates.

[3bob]

The world of mankind is rife with injustice... and one may wonder why a greater universe would allow such injustices?  (or does it?)  And in what way can universal justice (which includes personal justice) be had in the world along with it being tended to without the commission of some form of violence when such reckoning needs to take place?  (btw, who is wise enough to commit detached violence in the name of true justice without error?)  

Edited August 30, 2015 by 3bob

[de_paradise]

Possible that on a deeper level TM invited the situation of getting hit, giving her opponent a kind of alibi to lure her to strike. Why? in order for that delicious ego-feeling of hurt and righteous indignation, a moral high ground where the ego gains licence to create all sorts of defensive and offensive stories for future use, or to replay a past drama. Possible that Taomeow therefore hit herself. But no matter what the reaction, one can utilize it for spiritual progress, similar to CT's "trained mind" but without the idealism, just gritty, shameful hurt trapped under layers of metaphor, needing a strong impetus to get to a higher level.

[mYTHmAKER]

TM what was the woman's reaction when she hit you. Did she say anything?

In the situation you described i would tell her what she did was not ethical/proper and explain why.

She needs to know what she did so she can learn. Based on her response I would either

tell her not to push with me again or push with her being on high alert until I was convinced she understood

that the goal is not to hurt others.

[Taomeow]

TM what was the woman's reaction when she hit you. Did she say anything?

In the situation you described i would tell her what she did was not ethical/proper and explain why.

She needs to know what she did so she can learn. Based on her response I would either

tell her not to push with me again or push with her being on high alert until I was convinced she understood

that the goal is not to hurt others.

 

Good question! 

 

Well, that's the thing.  I didn't avoid her for nothing as I did until asked to give it a go by someone I didn't want to say no to.  I genuinely believe that the woman in question has a mild mental illness, and have thought so for a while, long before the encounter.  I can't cure her nor can anyone else because "borderline personality disorder" is a very gratifying one to have in our society, for those who can keep it within accepted margins and not lose control completely.  In fact it is the type of abnormal human development that is promoted as better-than-normal.  The ruthlessness, the manipulativeness, the ability to take advantage of any weakness spotted in anyone, and so on are promoted as values to us from countless sources and examples.  None of it is taiji, but all of it is a social "success template" accepted and glorified.  Yet what underlies it is a mental illness.  Which society embraces as something better than normalcy.

 

So, her reaction was to gloat, to look with red-faced, fast-breathing triumph of victory -- "I did it, I fooled you and hurt you when you were not looking, behold the glorious, victorious me!"  I proceeded to push with her for another ten minutes or so, to better learn what she can and cannot do, investing in loss all the time, just to find out if it was accidental (to learn if, as Michael suggested, she was in the warrior mode and unconscious -- or in the borderline mode and unconscious -- or in the warrior mode and conscious of a murderous drive and acting on that -- which would make her crazy as a bat, since we weren't in a war situation -- and so on).  The conclusions I drew were "borderline personality disorder," I knew it from observations and now I knew it through touch.  In taoist terms, possessed by gui.  Not her fault.  The fault of society possessed by gui to have no help for such people and in fact maintain the illusion of this being normal by rewarding such behavior.  

 

Of course taiji may generate a miracle and another year or two from now she will be different.  It happens, it's unrealistic to expect in every single case, but it does happen in some cases.  But another year from now I will also be different.  That's why I said earlier, to Liminal, that I don't know what I will do with the IOU.  I really don't.  My own reactions are in a flux, from no-taiji ones to some-taiji ones to better-taiji ones.  One thing I don't do is dictate to my emerging taiji-mind what it "should" be like.  I just watch it unfold. 

 

My sparring experience is that of a beginner, while my taiji experience is that of a -- well, it's a bit ahead of the sparring experience -- so I am very curious to learn how one will be catching up with the other.  I'm catching up with myself, I've no one else to overcome or win against, this would give me nothing of what I want -- whereas I encountered a partner for whom it's everything.  So, all in all, valuable lesson, but not as simple and clear-cut as one might assume who doesn't have either taiji or sparring experience.  (Interesting that all the responses that have any relevance to the situation whatsoever came from folks who do have either or both.  The ones who mistake a push-hands practice for the coach of a psychoanalyst are politely asked to head toward the latter and away from the former -- be an expert, by all means, but not on my taiji time if you can help it. ) 

Edited August 30, 2015 by Taomeow

[gendao]

Gendao,

 

I find the idea that the entirety of the "outside" world is set up to perfectly mirror my inner reality appealing in a way, but I´m not sure I buy it. If that´s true, everything can be solved by simply working inside ourselves. It´s comforting to think that if we get clear inside there will be no monsters walking around that we might innocently bump into because we´ve structured our internal world so that that possibility doesn´t exist for us.

 

I´m prepared to believe that I "create" some of my reality, but I think there is more to it than that. Sometimes we run into a monster or two without having summoned them, even unconsciously. They simply appear.

 

Liminal

That's a good question.  Is everything our own subconscious projection or resonance - even physical laws like gravity?  I do wonder if there's perhaps a spectrum that extends from our conscious, to subconscious, to collective unconscious, etc...  And perhaps a very deepset belief in gravity might reside on the deep collective unconscious level that we accept when we incarnate on this planet?  Which would then be very hard to access and hack now - similar to DNA. 

 

But, who knows???  I'm just now working through my subconscious layers and haven't dug much deeper than that yet...

[3bob]

This is of a tangent but one might ask when does a powerful enough mixture of self-defense (physical and mental) start to reduce the need for an offense that in effect also results as defense but also adds some extra umph to it....?

 

For instance I took some Tae Kwan do lessons but after I heard the instructors often talking about, "one kick, one kill" as a general rule of thumb such caused me to lose interest because I was not in agreement with that idea since to me varying situations have varying needs.  As an alternative I found the Akido philosophy more in line with well rounded justice since one turns an attackers force and imbalance against them while staying centered, thus seldom giving out an extra offensive thumping on top of a situation if or when an attacker is disabled. (unless such is truly needed)

Edited August 30, 2015 by 3bob

[liminal_luke]

 

 

  I genuinely believe that the woman in question has a mild mental illness, and have thought so for a while, long before the encounter.  I can't cure her nor can anyone else because "borderline personality disorder" is a very gratifying one to have in our society, for those who can keep it within accepted margins and not lose control completely.  In fact it is the type of abnormal human development that is promoted as better-than-normal.  The ruthlessness, the manipulativeness, the ability to take advantage of any weakness spotted in anyone, and so on are promoted as values to us from countless sources and examples.  None of it is taiji, but all of it is a social "success template" accepted and glorified.  Yet what underlies it is a mental illness.  Which society embraces as something better than normalcy.

  

At the risk of being diagnostically nitpicky, I don´t believe having any degree of borderline personality disorder is gratifying. Perhaps you´re getting borderline mixed up with sociopathy? Here´s something I found on the web about the difference.

 

"Typically, antisocial offenders with borderline personality disorder are emotionally reactive, unable to regulate emotions, bereft of cognitive empathy (knowing how another person feels), rageful, and reactively aggressive. By contrast, antisocial offenders with high psychopathic traits can be characterized as emotionally detached, cognitively empathic, morally problematic, exploitative, and proactively and reactively aggressive."

 

I get what you mean about that ruthless manipulativeness being accepted in socity, even celebrated. And you´re right, it absolutely is. But people with borderline personality disorder come by their antisocial behavior out of a profound sense of emotional anguish. It´s no fun at all. Sociopaths on the other hand are less likely to be bothered by their mental illness. Maybe even incapable of being bothered by it.

 

Not that it´s a difference that makes much of a difference when deciding what to do after being punched or what have you. Either way, borderline or sociopath, the best course of action remains the same in my opinion: have as little to do with them as possible and protect yourself and those you care about.

 

Liminal

[Stosh]

Everyone has felt wronged at some time or other, whats new under the sun? Any new solutions popped up? any surprises? perhaps a new more perfect answer you hadnt considered? I doubt it. The ol idea of blaming the victim, popped up , and the ol consider the other persons perspective ploy etc, but when it comes down to brass tacks youre probably A, proud you kept your head and acted with class, but B, still cant help that feeling there was some kind of more aggressive response deserved. Its not perfect ,no, but we have all felt wronged, wanted justice, wanted support , and a better solution. Heck , me! Id probably be stewing with venom for a while, but in the end just suck it up ,,seeing the situation not repeating, then Id try to rationalize it away ,until I basically Id just forgotten about it.

[Taomeow]

Liminal,

 

well, yes, a label is a shortcut to point toward what one generally means -- until it is experienced it is meaningless, after it is experienced it is more so.  What label is chosen for what territory may be subject to debate.  Of course it's not the territory, but then, the hands-on violence and how to deal with it realistically and prudently overlaps with the territory of that analysis only by a little sliver, so it doesn't really matter all that much.  What matters is to understand the territory, not to label it.  

 

Then there's personal preferences, idiosyncratically higher or lower tolerance for certain human territory "types."  Some people can't handle being around someone who is depressed, e.g..  Whatever their reaction, they don't enjoy this reaction and might avoid depressed individuals not necessarily because they are unable to feel compassion but because this compassion does not have the energy of changing things for the better for the sufferer while the sufferer's "aura" changes things for the worse for themselves.  Some people can't handle someone else's happiness, they feel deprived and beholding someone who does not appear deprived triggers jealousy, envy, self-pity, what not.  FB reported on many new cases of depression triggered by the sight of "friends" doing better than whoever is ruffled by that -- posting pictures of exotic travel and successful romance and what not, apparently some people are messed up by this happening to someone else.  Then some people really cringe in the presence of physical violence, they will avoid it at all costs, not necessarily because they are cowards but because -- well, who knows what old traumas the sight might trigger?   When I did TKD for a while, there was this one girl who was very good -- except in contact sparring.  She would invariably burst into tears if someone landed a punch or a kick even though she was wearing protective gear and there was little if any physical pain.  It was an emotional reaction to being hit.  She couldn't handle it.

 

So, in my case, it's borderlines.  Sociopaths are easier because they are not as skilled and flexible in their manifestations, they are very predictable.  Borderlines, while "overall" also very predictable, cultivate unpredictability in any given situation, they are very good at surprising you by being wonderful when you expect the worst and turning into monsters when you relax and drop your guard.  One has to have spent a long time in the company of at least one to know this territory.  I, unfortunately, did and do.  It's not that I can't handle it, it's like you said -- not worth investing the energy into handling.  I have better things to do. 

[mYTHmAKER]

I would still explain to her the rules of the game

She might not understand them;

tell her if she can't or doesn't want to follow the rules

you are finished with her.

A good teacher would never teach her if she is as you say

[Taomeow]

I would still explain to her the rules of the game

She might not understand them;

tell her if she can't or doesn't want to follow the rules

you are finished with her.

A good teacher would never teach her if she is as you say

 

Our teacher is beyond good, he is the best.  But she has never shown him what she does when he is not around to watch.  And she is sweetness incarnate with him, shy, bashful, humble...  to tell him what she really does when he's not there might make one look as a sore loser -- I've seen her hurt huge muscular guys like that, people of twice her size and thrice her skill, and they never complained.  She does have the art of war down pat -- she just wages a wrong war.  A war she can never win because she has no idea who her real enemy is and attacks the stand-offs instead. 

 

I've chosen de-escalation and avoidance as a temporary step, I'm by far not the only one who knows she breaks the rules constantly, I just don't want to take the lead in trying to expose or correct that.  Not my place.  I'll do what I can to improve my own skill, is all, until the next encounter.  I want to have the next encounter when I'm completely empty, so she falls into wuji when she touches me, the way I fell into wuji with a very very accomplished partner who was the first one to show me what real high level taiji sparring is like.  But he had forty years of top level taiji by then.  So I might not be ready in another year.  But that's the plan for now.    

[mYTHmAKER]

Our teacher is beyond good, he is the best.  But she has never shown him what she does when he is not around to watch.  And she is sweetness incarnate with him, shy, bashful, humble...  to tell him what she really does when he's not there might make one look as a sore loser -- I've seen her hurt huge muscular guys like that, people of twice her size and thrice her skill, and they never complained.  She does have the art of war down pat -- she just wages a wrong war.  A war she can never win because she has no idea who her real enemy is and attacks the stand-offs instead. 

 

I've chosen de-escalation and avoidance as a temporary step, I'm by far not the only one who knows she breaks the rules constantly, I just don't want to take the lead in trying to expose or correct that.  Not my place.  I'll do what I can to improve my own skill, is all, until the next encounter.  I want to have the next encounter when I'm completely empty, so she falls into wuji when she touches me, the way I fell into wuji with a very very accomplished partner who was the first one to show me what real high level taiji sparring is like.  But he had forty years of top level taiji by then.  So I might not be ready in another year.  But that's the plan for now.  

My teacher is better than yours LOL

I would outright refuse to play with her and if anyone asks why I would tell it like it is.

Refusing to be in a bad situation is a highly developed skill in itself. Wuji baby!

[Taomeow]

My teacher is better than yours LOL

I would outright refuse to play with her and if anyone asks why I would tell it like it is.

Refusing to be in a bad situation is a highly developed skill in itself. Wuji baby!

 

True, but there's no equal ground to start from, I can tell you this as a bazi reader -- people are born into different situations, and for some, not to be in a bad situation is a matter of not doing anything assinine and the rest will take care of itself -- while for others it's a lifelong battle to bootstrap themselves from that situation and many of its subsequent resonances. 

 

One of my favorite Chinese parables is about rats a sage observed when in his travels he chanced upon a little town and went into the bakery to buy some steamed buns.  While at it, he spotted a couple of the resident rats -- fat, calm, confident, with shiny healthy fur and bright, cheerful eyes.  He ate his buns and then, just a block away, spotted the public outhouse and visited the premises too, observing a couple of rats there as well -- pathetically skinny, sickly, nervous, suspicious, with matted ugly fur and angry little eyes.  The sage concluded that it was not the nature of two sets of rats that made them so different, but the nature of their environment.  "Location, location, location."  

 

So, I never judge anyone who is in a bad situation as less skillful or accomplished than someone who managed to avoid a bad situation.  One needs to know what prior situation the individual is coming from -- whether the current one is worse than what he or she had been dealing with in the past, better, or the same -- and whether this improvement or deterioration was due to his or her doing or the environment that overpowered the best actions or allowed the worst ones to have no consequences.  A bakery is not an outhouse, and a rat born in the bakery can have a far better life situation -- but it's the rat escaping from the outhouse who is the master, even if he has to fight a few cats or even a pack of dogs on his way to the bakery -- and possibly beyond, because he has leaned how to advance out of a situation rather than avoid it.

 

Of course if one places oneself in bad situations that wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for consistent poor choices, that's different.  Step on the pitchfork once, get whacked in the head, bad luck.  Step on it the second time, bad memory.  Step on it the third time, bad habit. 

[woodcarver]

Try not to do anything worthy of getting punched in the face.

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ocean Form