Are Taoists really just Libertarians

[thelerner]

After all, the Tao can be named is not the Tao...heheheh.... 

and the Tao that can be read is not the real Tao.  To much philosophy and study can make one top heavy.  Shouldn't waste the last days of summer on it.  Time enough in winter..

 

 

fwiw I feel the same way when someone puts up a 'must see' 1 hour 12 minute youtube video.. 

Edited August 30, 2015 by thelerner

[Apech]

Only the person who has missed an opportunity would deny they have missed the opportunity :-)

 

 

You do remind me of someone else

[Marblehead]

Yet laws do tell you what you must do and these laws are made by others.

Yep.  And that is why I will suggest that pure Anarchy is not possible.  Even in the society of Hell's Angels there are rules made by others which cannot be violated.

[ralis]

Yep.  And that is why I will suggest that pure Anarchy is not possible.  Even in the society of Hell's Angels there are rules made by others which cannot be violated.

 

His so called logic is hardly such.

[Karl]

Yep.  And that is why I will suggest that pure Anarchy is not possible.  Even in the society of Hell's Angels there are rules made by others which cannot be violated.

 

Governance not Government. In a Hells Angel group everybody is there voluntarily and they have agreed to abide by those rules. They are free to leave if they don't want to continue living under the rules. I have no issue at all with that. Pure anarchy would be an individual decision, it doesn't have to ever have to be, it only needs to exist. It is the Tao.

 

"The first kind of leader is one the people are not aware of"

[Karl]

His so called logic is hardly such.

 

And now you will see why logic is such a powerful thing....:-)

[Marblehead]

Governance not Government. In a Hells Angel group everybody is there voluntarily and they have agreed to abide by those rules. They are free to leave if they don't want to continue living under the rules. I have no issue at all with that. Pure anarchy would be an individual decision, it doesn't have to ever have to be, it only needs to exist. It is the Tao.

But you don't have to continue living where you do and I don't have to continue living where I do.  We have choices.  We have decided to remain where we are because we have seen how much worse it could be for us if we moved.

 

Same with the members of the Hell's Angels.

 

Today there are people trying to migrate into Europe looking for something better.  (Problem is is that they are only going to make things worse for those who are already there.)

 

"The first kind of leader is one the people are not aware of"

And throughout history you have never heard of such a reality, have you?  No, it's not the nature of the human animal.

 

But it is an admirable goal.

[Karl]

But you don't have to continue living where you do and I don't have to continue living where I do.  We have choices.  We have decided to remain where we are because we have seen how much worse it could be for us if we moved.

 

Same with the members of the Hell's Angels.

 

Today there are people trying to migrate into Europe looking for something better.  (Problem is is that they are only going to make things worse for those who are already there.)

 

 

And throughout history you have never heard of such a reality, have you?  No, it's not the nature of the human animal.

 

But it is an admirable goal.

 

I have not voluntarily entered into any state agreement. I have not joined anything at all. I can choose to join something like the hells angels if I wish to subscribe and this should be precisely how it is with the state. It has nothing what so ever to do with geographical location. Why should move ? Let those who wish to live under a state should move, if that is what they advocate. Otherwise I'm happy to let them live side by side with me. Let's see how many will pay tax to support a state if there is no penalty for doing so.

 

Isn't this the way of the Tao ? One lives without expectation, without the need to control others.

[Marblehead]

I have not voluntarily entered into any state agreement. I have not joined anything at all. I can choose to join something like the hells angels if I wish to subscribe and this should be precisely how it is with the state. It has nothing what so ever to do with geographical location. Why should move ? Let those who wish to live under a state should move, if that is what they advocate. Otherwise I'm happy to let them live side by side with me. Let's see how many will pay tax to support a state if there is no penalty for doing so. Isn't this the way of the Tao ? One lives without expectation, without the need to control others.

What beautiful idealism.  Need I say it ain't gonna' happen?

 

If the world were like Lao Tzu suggested in Chapter 80 then sure, it would be an ideal come true.  But humanity is moving on the opposite direction.

[Karl]

What beautiful idealism. Need I say it ain't gonna' happen?

 

If the world were like Lao Tzu suggested in Chapter 80 then sure, it would be an ideal come true. But humanity is moving on the opposite direction.

Start with self and make it a reality. Right knowledge, right thought, right action. It does not matter over how long, or if it is never at all, but if one does not take the first step there will be no path. It's only idealism if you don't act upon it, if you do then that is reality. Know thyself, act accordingly, if your path is not to act in accordance with your principles then that is also reality, but know that this is what you are doing in full light of conscious awareness and then there is no problem.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Karl

[Marblehead]

Start with self and make it a reality. Right knowledge, right thought, right action. It does not matter over how long, or if it is never at all, but if one does not take the first step there will be no path. It's only idealism if you don't act upon it, if you do then that is reality. Know thyself, act accordingly, if your path is not to act in accordance with your principles then that is also reality, but know that this is what you are doing in full light of conscious awareness and then there is no problem.

Great advise for someone who is 17 years old.  Regretfully, or perhaps gratefully, I am 74 years old.  I don't need another daddy.

 

I have divorced myself out of the system as much as I possibly can without the man coming to take me away.

 

And keep in mind that my retirement checks come from the government.  I wouldn't want to piss them off at me too much.

[Karl]

Great advise for someone who is 17 years old.  Regretfully, or perhaps gratefully, I am 74 years old.  I don't need another daddy.

 

I have divorced myself out of the system as much as I possibly can without the man coming to take me away.

 

And keep in mind that my retirement checks come from the government.  I wouldn't want to piss them off at me too much.

 

Not at all. It isn't advice, this is just constructive commentary. There is no need to divorce from the system either. This isn't a 'how to' kind of thing. Each according to their own. If it's done in full awareness then there isn't anything else to do.

 

I don't believe that there is any need to refuse what the state has promised to provide. We live under its laws, take whatever is due as you would if foraging for yourself, leave nothing on the ground, take it all. Again, in full awareness of those actions then there is no problem.

[Marblehead]

... leave nothing on the ground, take it all.

Therein lies the root of most of the worlds problems.  Take it all!  Leave nothing for any one else!

 

I retired early because I had enough.  I made room for others.

 

Taoism teaches to know when you have enough.  When the task is complete - retire.

 

Wu wei baby!

[Karl]

Therein lies the root of most of the worlds problems.  Take it all!  Leave nothing for any one else!

 

I retired early because I had enough.  I made room for others.

 

Taoism teaches to know when you have enough.  When the task is complete - retire.

 

Wu wei baby!

 

Just as the state has no free market system then so there is no 'leave nothing for others' because the state makes all decisions. They promised abundance in return for submission, as you have no choice but submission then whatever loot they offer should be taken-otherwise you are not submitting sufficiently :-)

 

Oppose any increased subsidies, tariffs, wars etc in whatever way you can, but you cannot hide from reality or reality of self.

 

Did you not say that your waistline was larger than you wished-what has Taoism taught you ? Everyone is sovereign, enough for one is too much for another and not enough for some. Only honest work should reward if it is valued by others. The more it is valued the more will be the reward. Joy in service, not by coercion, but by responsible, honest labour.

[ralis]

Just as the state has no free market system then so there is no 'leave nothing for others' because the state makes all decisions. They promised abundance in return for submission, as you have no choice but submission then whatever loot they offer should be taken-otherwise you are not submitting sufficiently :-) Oppose any increased subsidies, tariffs, wars etc in whatever way you can, but you cannot hide from reality or reality of self. Did you not say that your waistline was larger than you wished-what has Taoism taught you ? Everyone is sovereign, enough for one is too much for another and not enough for some. Only honest work should reward if it is valued by others. The more it is valued the more will be the reward. Joy in service, not by coercion, but by responsible, honest labour.

 

 

Your narrative is based more on the unfounded belief of 'Social Darwinism' than logic. "The state makes all decisions"? Where did you come up with that notion?

[ralis]

Just as the state has no free market system then so there is no 'leave nothing for others' because the state makes all decisions. They promised abundance in return for submission, as you have no choice but submission then whatever loot they offer should be taken-otherwise you are not submitting sufficiently :-) Oppose any increased subsidies, tariffs, wars etc in whatever way you can, but you cannot hide from reality or reality of self. Did you not say that your waistline was larger than you wished-what has Taoism taught you ? Everyone is sovereign, enough for one is too much for another and not enough for some. Only honest work should reward if it is valued by others. The more it is valued the more will be the reward. Joy in service, not by coercion, but by responsible, honest labour.

 

Your cynical worldview reminds me of one who believes that the state is watching your every move.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2015 by ralis

[Karl]

Your narrative is based more on the unfounded belief of 'Social Darwinism' than logic. "The state makes all decisions"? Where did you come up with that notion?

 

From the reality that we only have privileges and no rights. Every action/decision must then be related to the existence of the state. Unless of course you subscribe to the 'no mind' model.

You seem desperate to find a little shelf for me ;-) I would give up if I was you. I subscribe notionally to many philosophies. You have all these categories that I have either never heard of, or know nothing about. I've heard of social Darwinism but can't say I knowingly subscribe to it. Darwin was a bit of a eugenecist so I stay clear of those who like drawers and boxes.

[ralis]

From the reality that we only have privileges and no rights. Every action/decision must then be related to the existence of the state. Unless of course you subscribe to the 'no mind' model. You seem desperate to find a little shelf for me ;-) I would give up if I was you. I subscribe notionally to many philosophies. You have all these categories that I have either never heard of, or know nothing about. I've heard of social Darwinism but can't say I knowingly subscribe to it. Darwin was a bit of a eugenecist so I stay clear of those who like drawers and boxes.

 

Obviously you have not read Herbert Spencers revisionism of Darwin. Spencer posited a survival of the fittest supposition which was a popular theme in the early to mid 1900's. Species do not survive as individuals, but as a group via altruism and cooperation, which Darwin's work proves. Darwin has been revised by advocates of Spencer, Leo Strauss et al.

 

Amazon's page for Spencer. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=herbert+spencer

Edited August 31, 2015 by ralis

[Karl]

Your cynical worldview reminds me of one who believes that the state is watching your every move.

 

 

 

It isn't cynical, just reality, by the time you catch on you will have an identity chip.

 

Already we have almost as many CCTV cameras (that we know about) in the UK as we have people. Many of these cameras have facial recognition software. Every phone call and Internet search can be collected. Most of us don't use cash and so our credit card transactions are open source. We have number plate readers for cars throughout the country. Once cash is outlawed there will be no transaction out of sight. Even now, taking money out, or in to banks invites a hail of obligatory questions and delays. Buying precious metals requires a passport over a certain quantity. Licences are required for birth, death, marriage or driving. Every airport is ringed by security personal feeling up, or shaking down passengers. Even viewing the wrong website can get you into trouble. We now have a new policy which will target 'extremists' under which the prosecuted will have to prove they are innocent and we have school teachers reporting toddlers as young as 3 for extremist influence.

 

Cynical. Nah mate. This is what is happening right under our noses.

[Karl]

Obviously you have not read Herbert Spencers revisionism of Darwin. Spencer posited a survival of the fittest supposition which was a popular theme in the early to mid 1900's. Species do not survive as individuals, but as a group via altruism and cooperation, which Darwin's work proves. Darwin has been revised by advocates of Spencer, Leo Strauss et al.

 

Amazon's page for Spencer. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=herbert+spencer

 

Darwin didn't posit 'survival of the fittest' but 'survival of the most adaptable'.

Altruism doesn't exist, but cooperation-absolutely, but only of value if it is voluntary and not coercive.

[Brian]

 

It isn't cynical, just reality, by the time you catch on you will have an identity chip. Already we have almost as many CCTV cameras (that we know about) in the UK as we have people. Many of these cameras have facial recognition software. Every phone call and Internet search can be collected. Most of us don't use cash and so our credit card transactions are open source. We have number plate readers for cars throughout the country. Once cash is outlawed there will be no transaction out of sight. Even now, taking money out, or in to banks invites a hail of obligatory questions and delays. Buying precious metals requires a passport over a certain quantity. Licences are required for birth, death, marriage or driving. Every airport is ringed by security personal feeling up, or shaking down passengers. Even viewing the wrong website can get you into trouble. We now have a new policy which will target 'extremists' under which the prosecuted will have to prove they are innocent and we have school teachers reporting toddlers as young as 3 for extremist influence. Cynical. Nah mate. This is what is happening right under our noses.

Things are very similar on this side of the Pond, too.

[Karl]

Things are very similar on this side of the Pond, too.

 

I think you have always had nominally greater freedom than we have and tend to rebel against it. The UK is far less revolutionary. We have had years of 'terrorism' and a greater acceptance of state security by default. As such we complain very little as the surveillance state has grown exponentially. We were all for biometric identity cards-to be fair it was only the extreme lefties that opposed it. If the Government announced we were getting microchipped tomorrow, there would be a line of willing takers.

[Karl]

Your narrative is based more on the unfounded belief of 'Social Darwinism' than logic. "The state makes all decisions"? Where did you come up with that notion?

 

So, now I've done a bit of research it would seem that 'social Darwinism' is very much your game and diametrically opposed to my views. It is very much statist control and collectivism which seems to be more your thing. You have a kind of Fabian approach.

[Apech]

I think you have always had nominally greater freedom than we have and tend to rebel against it. The UK is far less revolutionary. We have had years of 'terrorism' and a greater acceptance of state security by default. As such we complain very little as the surveillance state has grown exponentially. We were all for biometric identity cards-to be fair it was only the extreme lefties that opposed it. If the Government announced we were getting microchipped tomorrow, there would be a line of willing takers.

 

If it was oven chips on offer the queue would be even longer.

[Karl]

If it was oven chips on offer the queue would be even longer.

 

Not even that. Just start a queue and others will join it.