Did Buddha consider the Kundalini bad?

[MooNiNite]

I was reading that the Tibetans actually misunderstood Buddha's teachings. And that the Buddha actually is against the kundalini.

 

Opinions?

[MooNiNite]

"According to Gurdjieff, Buddha's teachings eventually became distorted (especially in Tibetan Buddhism) giving rise to the idea of "kundalini," which is really a distortion and misinterpretation of the ideas set forth by Buddha concerning how we may be released from those "maleficent crystallizations" that were crystalized into our consciousness from the organ kundabuffer."

 

"Concerning this misinterpretation of the essential Buddhist teachings, A.R.Orage, who was a student of Gurdjieff, spoke of Kundalini as being a legacy of "mistaken Buddhist lore, … considered to be a faculty whose least result is great inspiration and which may even lead to flashes of cosmic consciousness … (whereas) … in fact, Kundalini is nearly the reverse of all this. It is that attribute in man which prevents his observation of reality as it is…"

 

"According to Gurdjieff, it was the misunderstanding of Buddha's true teachings on how to effectively utilize suffering that led to it's distortions to the present day. This misunderstanding led to the present day misinterpretations of Buddha's original teachings and the idea of kundalini is but a reflection of this misunderstanding."

[MooNiNite]

The problem arises however that kundalini can directly translate as death of the kundabuffer organ

[MooNiNite]

The 'organ kundabuffer' - relates more to the 'predator's mind' or 'foreign installation' of Castaneda, where we see reality upside down due to the power of imagination working in concert with the distorted perceptions of our false personalities that buffer us from reality. So, this 'organ of perception' from the 'crystallizations' of the organ kundabuffer (as Gurdjieff describes it) relates more to how man perceives the world through 'a glass darkly,' that is, through the eyes of his own egotism and imagination which inverts reality making things opposite to what they really are.

[Jetsun]

Gurdjieff spoke about a lot of things with the purpose of destroying the beliefs and concepts of the students who were walking the path of his own teachings, he may not have intended all the things he said to be taken completely literally by all, especially if they are not following his own teachings, so you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

[MooNiNite]

Gurdjieff spoke about a lot of things with the purpose of destroying the beliefs and concepts of the students who were walking the path of his own teachings, he may not have intended all the things he said to be taken completely literally by all, especially if they are not following his own teachings, so you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

 

I'v been experiencing a lot of people calling kundalini evil lately. I purely believe it is the power of consciousness.          

[C T]

I'v been experiencing a lot of people calling kundalini evil lately. I purely believe it is the power of consciousness.          

How do you equate kundalini as the power of consciousness? Based on your belief? 

[MooNiNite]

How do you equate kundalini as the power of consciousness? Based on your belief? 

I should rephrase. it is the power of concentration. based on experience.

 

For kundalini to reside in sahasrara would result in unhindered awareness. 

Edited August 31, 2015 by MooNiNite

[idiot_stimpy]

Its the downward sexual vital energy turned around to go upward from my experience. It is also centered around the sexual organs in art depicting it, as a snake.

[C T]

I should rephrase. it is the power of concentration. based on experience

Many advanced Theravadin adepts have developed high concentrative abilities without the need for kundalini activation. 

 

Tibetan teachers i have studied with, none of them in fact, advocate kundalini-type practices for developing concentration. Only a combination of samatha and vipassana meditation is encouraged. 

[MooNiNite]

Many advanced Theravadin adepts have developed high concentrative abilities without the need for kundalini activation. 

 

Tibetan teachers i have studied with, none of them in fact, advocate kundalini-type practices for developing concentration. Only a combination of samatha and vipassana meditation is encouraged. 

 

I used to observe the breath, then i started resting in awareness and observing the thoughts. Both seem to be good methods. 

[C T]

I used to observe the breath, then i started resting in awareness and observing the thoughts. Both seem to be good methods. 

So where does kundalini fit in to the picture? 

[Jetsun]

I'v been experiencing a lot of people calling kundalini evil lately. I purely believe it is the power of consciousness.

My general understanding of what Gurdjieff was talking about is that people can use the energies of the body to produce bliss and heightened states, which can be used as a means of avoidance or indulgence to avoid reality which ultimately stunts balanced growth. In his system bliss of the body is considered like cocaine so is a hindrance.

 

As I understand it Gurdjieff snuck into Tibet in the era before the Chinese invasion and was one of the few foreigners to have access, he managed to get a job as a tax collector for the 13th Dalai Lama through which he had access to many monasteries across the country. Yet as I understand it he considers Tibetan Buddhism as being different from regular Buddhism and actually calls it Lamaism which originated from 'St Lama' (Padmasambhava) rather than Buddha. He says through that time he didn't find anyone with complete balanced spiritual development throughout the entire of Tibet, so didn't pursue its teachings.

 

As far as I know the Buddha wasn't particularly concerned with kundalini though, he was most preoccupied with how we create most of our own suffering. He tried all of the yogic techniques which were around at that time, some of which most probably included stimulation of body channels and energies and ultimately found them unsatisfactory in his quest to get to the root of suffering.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Jetsun

[Jeff]

I was reading that the Tibetans actually misunderstood Buddha's teachings. And that the Buddha actually is against the kundalini.

 

Opinions?

 

Buddhists just tend to do energy (tantric) practices later than some other traditions. With greater mental clarity, there are less bumps on the road, but the trip may take longer to have such a smooth road. In the end, as the Heart Sutra says, one must realize that Emptiness = Form and Form = Emptiness.

 

And form is nothing buy energy...

 

Best wishes.

 

[Apech]

Tummo and candali (kundalini) practices come from the mahasiddhi tantric traditions developed in medieval India (600 - 1200 AD).  They were passed to the Tibetans who preserved them.

 

They are completely legitimate and also Buddhist (although it would take a long post to explain how this might be).  If you want to know about Buddhism I would read Buddhist texts and commentaries and not Gurdieff etc.

[C T]

Tummo and candali (kundalini) practices come from the mahasiddhi tantric traditions developed in medieval India (600 - 1200 AD).  They were passed to the Tibetans who preserved them.

 

They are completely legitimate and also Buddhist (although it would take a long post to explain how this might be).  If you want to know about

Buddhism I would read Buddhist texts and commentaries and not Gurdieff etc.

 

But are they prescribed for developing dharana (concentration)? I do not recall that they are. 

[Apech]

But are they prescribed for developing dharana (concentration)? I do not recall that they are. 

 

No I was responding to the OP that the Tibetans misunderstood the Buddhas teachings.

[rex]

Not that I'm an expert on sutras or anything but I'm unaware of any references, either explicit or oblique, good or bad about kundalini. Perhaps this is because kundalini is tantric and not sutric?

 

Kurt Keutzer has written a FAQ on kundalini which mentions its expression in the Tibetan tradition:

http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~keutzer/kundalini/kundalini-yoga.html. It's a lenghty piece, so a search for tibetan may help. He has also written an updated FAQ: http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~keutzer/kundalini/kundalini-faq.html.

 

[Jeff]

But are they prescribed for developing dharana (concentration)? I do not recall that they are. 

 

Without such practices, the development of dharana would be limited (or much slower).

[C T]

Without such practices, the development of dharana would be limited (or much slower).

If you are referring to kundalini-type practices prior to samatha/vipassana, then i would vehemently disagree with your recommendation. No proper (Buddhist) teacher will initiate a student into esoteric practices bypassing the foundational development of samatha/vipassana, for obvious reasons. 

 

But maybe you were alluding to samatha/vipassana. Its not clear from your statement. 

[Apech]

If you are referring to kundalini-type practices prior to samatha/vipassana, then i would vehemently disagree with your recommendation. No proper (Buddhist) teacher will initiate a student into esoteric practices bypassing the foundational development of samatha/vipassana, for obvious reasons. 

 

But maybe you were alluding to samatha/vipassana. Its not clear from your statement. 

 

 

I agree it would be dangerous ... and ultimately either pointless or distracting.

[Jeff]

If you are referring to kundalini-type practices prior to samatha/vipassana, then i would vehemently disagree with your recommendation. No proper (Buddhist) teacher will initiate a student into esoteric practices bypassing the foundational development of samatha/vipassana, for obvious reasons. 

 

But maybe you were alluding to samatha/vipassana. Its not clear from your statement. 

 

No, as I stated earlier in this thread, with Buddhism such practices tend to be much later in the process. Unless, one has the capacity. Then cannot the Buddhist guru just directly show...

[MooNiNite]

So where does kundalini fit in to the picture? 

 

There is no separation between kundalini and concentration. 

[Apech]

There is no separation between kundalini and concentration. 

 

Really?  You might need to explain this point of view.

[C T]

No, as I stated earlier in this thread, with Buddhism such practices tend to be much later in the process. Unless, one has the capacity. Then cannot the Buddhist guru just directly show...

I dont think this generalisation that Buddhism (as a whole) touts kundalini-type practices is helpful. It gives out the wrong message. Not all Buddhist traditions tout esoterica, only the tantric, and on a leaner scale, the mantric ones do. 

 

The (real) teacher or guru never simply shows (directly) because its pointless to do so. No one is born ready. Even those who have been recognised as tulkus, incarnations of high lamas some of them, are put thru the stages of development, beginning from the basics up. The notion that a guru can snap his fingers and dismantle some wide-eyed wanderer's complex layers of delusional habits on the spot may hold water in some contemporary 'spiritual' camps, but certainly, in authentic Vajrayana lineages, this is seen as a foolish belief. Even the Buddha worked tremendously hard for his freedom despite all the favourable signs at birth proclaiming him to be a great sage.