Did Buddha consider the Kundalini bad?

[MooNiNite]

I'm no historian, but was kundalini even a thing back in the days of the Buddha? I doubt it (could be wrong), maybe someone can provide some facts regarding that?

 

I believe that Bon and TIbetan Buddism encorporate the kundalini. So it is debatable. Hindu and Indian teachers definately preach the kundalini so in that sense it could easily pre-date Buddha. Same with early Taoism, also talks about energy centers and the "nine-gates" (chakras). 

[Apech]

Twelve years before deciding?

 

 

Only if you are being hasty.

[Brian]

 

Twelve years before deciding?

After waiting an infinite number of years already, what's 12 more?

[Apech]

As far as I know kundalini is first mentioned in some of the Upanishads ... but I'm not not sure which.  But it would be very surprising indeed if there was not an equivalent practice and so on at the time of the Buddha.  The Buddha rejected other schools such as Samkhya and ascetic yoga ... but he took many terms from Vedic religion and used them himself.  Tantric Buddhism did not emerge until the period 600 -1200 AD ... much later at which time candali was definitely accepted.

[Creation]

If you surrender to someone (or something) with unrefined, or partially refined, energy, you will experience a variety of "kundalini syndromes".

 

From my personal experience with kundalini (a term that could simply be described as spiritual energy that is in a state of refinement (rising) or impairment (falling)), I see the challenge as not about being able to, or not being able to, surrender. It is about what one is surrendering to. 

 

Ultimately, one's spiritual trajectory can be charted by tracing the energies of what one is surrendering to. Understanding this deep, subtle truth of energy can take lifetime(s) to learn.

 

Do you know what you are surrendering to?

This is such an enormously important notion. 

 

Really.

[Creation]

I'm no historian, but was kundalini even a thing back in the days of the Buddha? I doubt it (could be wrong), maybe someone can provide some facts regarding that?

 

As far as I know kundalini is first mentioned in some of the Upanishads ... but I'm not not sure which.  But it would be very surprising indeed if there was not an equivalent practice and so on at the time of the Buddha.  The Buddha rejected other schools such as Samkhya and ascetic yoga ... but he took many terms from Vedic religion and used them himself.  Tantric Buddhism did not emerge until the period 600 -1200 AD ... much later at which time candali was definitely accepted.

 

One scholar-practioner I've read has textual mention of kundalini co-emergent with mentioning the system of chakras along the central channel.  That is, the central channel, specific points like the heart or crown, and the notion of preserving bindu, are mentioned much earlier in the textual record than a full set of chakras with petals etc along the central channel, and the latter is the context in which kundalini is first mentioned.  Another scholar-practitioner emphasizes the connection between kundalini and the idea of being pervaded/posesseed by a deity and related practices in the textual record, something which is really missing from most Western accounts of kundalini.  (This is related to "What are you surrending to"). 

 

Now, when you compare this to the path the Buddha taught in the suttas (concentration meditation leding to absorbtion in states free of afflicting mental factors i.e. jhana, mindfulness meditation leading to seeing all things as being dukkha anatta and anicca, contemplation of disgust of the body), there really is no connection to the practices related to kundalini.  Not that something like kundalini would never happen on such a path, but that it is simply not given any mention ar attention at all. 

 

Dating texts is controversial of course, but it would be a tough sell to place texts mentioning kundalini (including the "Yoga Upandishads") before, say, the seventh or eighth century by the standards of texual criticism.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Creation

[Jeff]

... Another scholar-practitioner emphasizes the connection between kundalini and the idea of being pervaded/posesseed by a deity and related practices in the textual record, something which is really missing from most Western accounts of kundalini.  (This is related to "What are you surrending to"). 

 

 

So are you stating that you believe that kundalini is a form of possssion? Or just that if your being is pervaded by a divine being, then one experiences kundalini? Those are two completely different things. Also, can you say who this scholar-practioner is? Or quote his text?

 

Thanks.

[Anderson]

I constantly have the impulse to provoke everybody.

Is that kundalini ?

[Creation]

So are you stating that you believe that kundalini is a form of possssion? Or just that if your being is pervaded by a divine being, then one experiences kundalini? Those are two completely different things. Also, can you say who this scholar-practioner is? Or quote his text? Thanks.

No, I don't believe kundalini is a form of possession.  Or the other thing you said.

 

The scholar-practitioner who talks about this is Christopher Wallis, in particular his paper "The Descent of Power: Possession, Mysticism, and Metaphysics in the Śaiva Theology of Abhinavagupta".  For example he discusses the uses of a Sanskrit term usually meaning possession here:

 

By contrast, in the Kaula and Trika texts, the śakti that enters appears more as an impersonal force or energy, despite the metaphorical use of language such as in 4.11 above. In many early passages, the term seems to make more sense when translated with something more like ‘infusion’ or ‘pervasion’ than ‘possession’. This implication of an energetic force at work rather than a discrete agent partially explains why it is possible for Abhinavagupta to later reinterpret samāveśa as ‘immersion’ into the universal Power of Śiva rather than possession by it, an interpretation essential for him as a nondualist.

 

To give a more concrete example, several kundalini teachers, such as Susan Carlson (ShaktiMama on this form) when asked what the difference between chi and kundalini is, say something like you direct chi, kundalini directs you, or kundalni has a mind/intelligence of its own, etc.  So you can see why an ancient society would relate this to being possessed by a deity.  I remember a post of Vajrahridaya on this form relating Hindu vs Buddhist attitudes to kriyas from his personal experience with both, saying the Hindu attitude is that it's the goddess moving you.  So even to this day there is this kind of attitude. 

 

The thing which first turned me on to these kind of ideas was a post by extremely knowledgeable traditionally trained tantiric adept that was here briefly with the screen name "guruyoga", where he mentioned kundalini awakening as different goddesses (Kali and Sri Lalita were the examples he used) depending on the practices you were doing.  Cross reference this with Vajrayana ideas about the generation stage and you start thinking about things differently than most Western accounts.  But I don't want to say more.

[thelerner]

Isn't the gold standard for what Buddha thought being what's in the Sutras?  (I'm asking, since I really don't know)

 

Does anyone know if Kundalini was mentioned in a Sutra or older Buddhist writing?

[rex]

Isn't Shakti the primordial creative power of the universe and always associated with a goddess? Isn't Kundalini the force of Shakti as She exists in embodied consciousness?

 

Perhaps for a clue to how a patriarchal tradition regards Kundalini, look to see how it regards women and divine female figures. Are there practices, based largely on oral tradition, that engages with the feminine and accords it sovereignty in particular spheres? The existence of Mother Tantra in Vajrayana Buddhism suggests a particular answer from some of Buddha's heirs.

[C T]

Isn't Shakti the primordial creative power of the universe and always associated with a goddess? Isn't Kundalini the force of Shakti as She exists in embodied consciousness?

 

Perhaps for a clue to how a patriarchal tradition regards Kundalini, look to see how it regards women and divine female figures. Are there practices, based largely on oral tradition, that engages with the feminine and accords it sovereignty in particular spheres? The existence of Mother Tantra in Vajrayana Buddhism suggests a particular answer from some of Buddha's heirs.

The Hevajra-tantra comes to mind. Within this tantra can be found a good number of references to karmamudra, or practicing with a consort(s). To maintain purity, karmamudra, as ascribed in Vajrayana, in particular the above-mentioned tantra, is never practiced for self-gratification. There is much emphasis for Vajrayana practitioners who take up karmamudra to actually renounce self-gratification and instead focus on complete and selfless devotion to the consort. In this sense, with regards to the development of selflessness, in order for the realisation to mature and bear fruit it is vitally necessary to first obtain a thorough understanding and then actually experiencing without any more doubt the true nature of reality, which is emptiness (feminine, wisdom, the absolute) suffused with cognisance (method, form, compassionate motives, interdependence, relativity). 

 

To quote from the Hevajra-tantra:

"This practice [of sexual union with a consort] is not taught for the sake of enjoyment, but for the examination of one's thoughts, to observe whether the mind is steady or wavering. Motivation must be based upon the inspiration to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings. Renouncing self-gratification is also reflected in the practice itself. Through karmamudra, practitioners generate bliss mutually in each other's subtle bodies through passionate play; simultaneously, both partners contemplate the nature of bliss through meditation. This practice highlights in an intensified way the synchronisation of body and mind essential to yoga". 

[Anderson]

Is the female that is looking for a male consort or is it the other way around ?

If i am a male how can i find a woman that is looking for a male consort ?

Edited September 13, 2015 by Anderson

[C T]

Is the female that is looking for a male consort or is it the other way around ?

If i am a male how can i find a woman that is looking for a male consort ?

When your embodied qualities of buddhahood begin to gather shape & mature, the right consort will appear, or your root guru, seeing your readiness, will direct you to one (Dakini), just as Padmasambhava directed Yeshe Tsogyal to seek out Atsara Salé, the Indian. Seventeen years old, he is said to be the emanation of Hayagriva. 

 

If a physical Dakini does not materialise, or even if vows of celibacy were taken, then it is always an option to practice envisioning supreme union at the point of death, like what Tsongkhapa did, culminating a lifetime's yogic discipline and attaining rainbow body. 

[allinone]

Grímnismál

In the poem Grímnismál, Odin (disguised as Grímnir) provides the young Agnar with cosmological lore. Yggdrasil is first mentioned in the poem in stanza 29, where Odin says that, because the "bridge of the Æsir burns" and the "sacred waters boil," Thor must wade through the rivers Körmt and Örmt and two rivers named Kerlaugar to go "sit as judge at the ash of Yggdrasill." In the stanza that follows, a list of names of horses are given that the Æsir ride to "sit as judges" at Yggdrasil.^[9]

[noonespecial]

Kundalini isnt bad, attachment to it is.