How do Taoists handle enemies?

[topaz]

For example-- there are predators who simply like to pick on other people for whatever reason. They will express antagonistic behavior in various ways, sometimes by ridicule sometimes by overt aggression or criticism.

 

How can wuwei be applied here? If we try to listen to know which way the river flows, our own fear or short-sighted anger may confuse us.

 

Our path will be opposed to that of the antagonist who will deliberately put himself or herself in our path to create a fight. It does not always work to ignore an enemy.

 

To vacate the situation is to allow immature or malicious people to dictate our course in life, and sometimes leaving the scene is just not possible.

 

Passages I remember from Sun Tzu:

 

If you know yourself but not your enemy you will win half the time,

and if you know your enemy but not yourself you will win half the time,

but if you know yourself and your enemy you will win 100% of the time.

 

Another passage is that a battle is won before it ever begins, which means, I think that the best intelligence will win.

Edited September 1, 2015 by topaz

[thelerner]

I guess one should first ask, 'Is it really an enemy?' 

Are you really threatened?  Too often in modern life we create enemies which aren't really there.  If you're not truly being threatened, ignore, go on with your business.  Assume people around you or at least the people who count will see the truth.  That your reputation is solid enough to take some mudslinging without having to fire back. 

 

If your behavior has been good in the past, don't worry, wu wei, do nothing.  Or just speak your truth and walk away.  No plots, no schemes..  If you take no offense, then no defense is needed.

 

Otherwise when fighting one can use element theory to get ones strategy.  They are fire, use water, stay relaxed, flowing, soothing.  They're rock then be air, move around them quickly, keep going.   They're air, contain them, nail down what mean and want, define terms. 

 

There's a good thead about Sun Tzu's Art of War, lots of good posts there on the art of ending conflict.  Maybe part of solving problems is realizing most of the time it's not a war, there's a conflict, you don't need to win, you need to find a good way to end it. 

 

A master sees infinite possibilities whereas a fighter just sees a fight. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by thelerner

[Bearded Dragon]

One should act decisively according to the time. It doesn't matter how. It only matters that you see clearly and move on fully when done. 

[Karl]

Well I'm no a Taoist, but I favour the 'running away' very fast gambit. Avoid confrontation by ensuring you don't go places, or act in a way that is likely to bring violence to you. Best avoid fighting if you can. If it's unavoidable then do maximum damage and retreat as soon as you can. I'm old enough to know that every fight I have ever been in I could have just as easily avoided, I liked acting like John Wayne instead of choosing avoidance.

[Michael Sternbach]

Daoists don't even have enemies. (Okay, ideally speaking.)

[Brian]

Daoists don't even have enemies. (Okay, ideally speaking.)

I have no enemies. Looking back at my life, I've never had an enemy.

 

I've had conflicts with people from time to time, of course, but I can honestly never remember feelings of enmity towards anyone or any group.

 

Maybe that just makes me milquetoast.

 

 

 

 

No, not that Milquetoast:

 

No, not that one, either:

 

 

[Marblehead]

Daoists don't even have enemies. (Okay, ideally speaking.)

Idealism is great, isn't it?

[woodcarver]

I really wish I knew the answer to this and I'm really interested in more replies. I've noticed that the best moments in my life happened completely naturally and I just stick to that for now.

 

You can't just kill people like you used to

[Brian]

<snip>

You can't just kill people like you used to

In my part of the country, "he needed killing" is still a valid legal defense.

 

[woodcarver]

In my part of the country, "he needed killing" is still a valid legal defense.

 

I see the old west ways are still going strong. It certainly settles things faster than today's civilized super slow killing.

 

"I am bringing it to your attention that I shall be killing you"

 

"oh how dreadful!"

Edited September 1, 2015 by woodcarver

[mYTHmAKER]

a Taoist would act appropriately in the moment

and

a Taoist would know what is an appropriate action or non action

[Michael Sternbach]

I have no enemies. Looking back at my life, I've never had an enemy.

 

I've had conflicts with people from time to time, of course, but I can honestly never remember feelings of enmity towards anyone or any group.

 

Maybe that just makes me milquetoast.

 

 

 

 

No, not that Milquetoast:

 

No, not that one, either:

 

If you see an opposition as enemy has a lot to do with your own perspective. Is it compatible with a spiritual attitude in general, and a Daoist one in particular? I think, no, as it is an expression of strong dualist thinking. I basically always had, but also further developed this attitude despite (or because of) some pretty fierce conflicts with certain people.

[Apech]

I have no enemies. Looking back at my life, I've never had an enemy.

 

I've had conflicts with people from time to time, of course, but I can honestly never remember feelings of enmity towards anyone or any group.

 

Maybe that just makes me milquetoast.

 

 

 

You have no enemies??? Brian you ____ _____ing ____!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

[Brian]

You have no enemies??? Brian you ____ _____ing ____!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

Not saying there aren't people who may consider me their enemy, just that the feeling isn't reciprocated. In fact, even those cases in which I've found myself in conflict with someone, I've generally viewed them as failures on my part and learning opportunities.

 

In recent years, as my awareness has expanded, I am more "in touch with my feelings" and I occasionally do find myself reacting from emotion, which is a bit foreign to me, but I have largely accommodated that change and tend to view the experience of emotional response as an opportunity to observe my own chemistry and learn from it.

[Apech]

Not saying there aren't people who may consider me their enemy, just that the feeling isn't reciprocated. In fact, even those cases in which I've found myself in conflict with someone, I've generally viewed them as failures on my part and learning opportunities.

 

In recent years, as my awareness has expanded, I am more "in touch with my feelings" and I occasionally do find myself reacting from emotion, which is a bit foreign to me, but I have largely accommodated that change and tend to view the experience of emotional response as an opportunity to observe my own chemistry and learn from it.

 

 

If your enemy's enemy is your friend, then is your friend's friend your enemy?

[Brian]

If your enemy's enemy is your friend, then is your friend's friend your enemy?

Naaah, my friend's friend is my friend, my enemy's enemy is my friend, my friend's enemy is my friend, and my enemy's friend is my friend. <counts on fingers...>

 

I'm a lot like my not-quite-right pug (in many ways, actually) -- everyone he meets is his friend.

 

 

 

 

(Yes, that even includes some people I am not particularly fond of, if you follow me...)

[liminal_luke]

 

In recent years, as my awareness has expanded, I am more "in touch with my feelings" and I occasionally do find myself reacting from emotion, which is a bit foreign to me, but I have largely accommodated that change and tend to view the experience of emotional response as an opportunity to observe my own chemistry and learn from it.

Being aware of emotions from an unemotional place -- just the right perspective, in my opinion, to allow one to deal in a Taoist way with any enemies, should they unexpectedly make an appearance.

[Daeluin]

If your enemy's enemy is your friend, then is your friend's friend your enemy?

 

Only if you attach expectations to your friendship with your friend that might be denied by your friend's friendship with their other friend. Ah, those pesky expectations.... which brings us back to adapting to the time.

 

Some great replies in this thread!

[Bud Jetsun]

Recognize the divine in all beings.  Namaste. 

 

Without experiencing cruelty, it would not be possible to appreciate kindness. 

 

When someone is kind to you, be kind and loving back.  When someone is cruel to you, forgive completely and be kind and loving back.

 

Appreciate every encounter with every being cruel and kind alike, be grateful for the enrichment of your human experience.  To not is to suffer your own fearful reactions pointlessly and incompassionately. 

 

One can only suffer ones own minds choices. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Michael Sternbach]

Not saying there aren't people who may consider me their enemy, just that the feeling isn't reciprocated. In fact, even those cases in which I've found myself in conflict with someone, I've generally viewed them as failures on my part and learning opportunities.

 

In recent years, as my awareness has expanded, I am more "in touch with my feelings" and I occasionally do find myself reacting from emotion, which is a bit foreign to me, but I have largely accommodated that change and tend to view the experience of emotional response as an opportunity to observe my own chemistry and learn from it.

 

[thelerner]

Naaah, my friend's friend is my friend, my enemy's enemy is my friend, my friend's enemy is my friend, and my enemy's friend is my friend. <counts on fingers...>

 

I'm a lot like my not-quite-right pug (in many ways, actually) -- everyone he meets is his friend.

(Yes, that even includes some people I am not particularly fond of, if you follow me...)

Seems very Taoist

Sorry if we're giving this a workout on your PPD 

[Brian]

Seems very Taoist

Sorry if we're giving this a workout on your PPD

No, don't be sorry! The dialog in the PPD and the several PM exchanges it has prompted have been very helpful. I don't want to say more just yet, though...

[dawei]

Laozi 69 -- Tr. David Hinton

There was once a saying among those who wielded armies:
I'd much rather be a guest than a host,
much rather retreat a foot than advance an inch.
This is called marching without marching,
rolling up sleeves without baring arms,
raising swords without brandishing weapons,
entering battle without facing an enemy.
There's no greater calamity than dishonoring an enemy.
Dishonor an enemy and you'll lose those treasures of mine.
When armies face one another in battle,
it's always the tender-hearted one that prevails.

 

----

'Enemy' depends on the level of enmity felt on some level... In the Warring State Period, someone like Sunzi or Laozi would want to speak specifically to a 'state' which wanted to annihilate another; For some, an enemy is the guy who just won't let me pass on the freeway

 

I remember in elementary school a really small kid who could never catch the ball so he could be the 'kickballer'... so I would catch them for him and let him have his kick...  

 

In middle school a guy who was trying to be the great ego enforcer and bully... I don't really know what but at that time I was very sensitive to the lowly students who where always picked on and beat up.   I stood up for them and inserted myself into the issue when it appeared they were being ambushed (if even by one).  

 

In another exchange, the would-be bully drew a knife on me... and I stopped, looked at it and then walked forward again to me... as I came closer, he put it away.  

 

These ridiculous stories of mine have no end... An FBI agent in a bar in DC...  let's forget that story...

 

In one of my more than dozen trips to China, while in an elevator, a guy was beating the shit out of a much smaller friend... I bumped the 'heavy' guy to let him know it wasn't cool... he turned on me like a tiger ready to pounce... I just looked him in the eyes...  I can only look back and wonder at both the integrity and stupidity of it all... acting in the moment.   

 

Live or Die seemed to compress to inseparability.  No Separation

 

Most enemies are just looking for attention; in fact, don't forget, who isn't at times 

 

I don't think there is a prescribed action/reaction except for battle plans which are drawn up before anyone has engaged and the minute of engagement the senior staff is quickly trying to revise them... over and over and over...  

 

I guess in the end, your response is simply going to be based on where you are on your life's journey.   

 

Some step in front of a tank at Tienanmen Square. Some set fire to themselves as a protest. 

 

How to deal with your enemies? 

 

A really great question...  It always depend.... 

 

Today, I'd probably follow Laozi idea to fulfill the stomach and not the eyes... Turn away... eat and drink... live another day.... 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

I don't think there is a prescribed action/reaction except for battle plans which are drawn up before anyone has engaged and the minute of engagement the senior staff is quickly trying to revise them... over and over and over...

 

Mike Tyson once said that everybody has a plan until they get smacked in the mouth.

 

Personally, when dealing with some kind of opposition, I tend to consult the I Ching or a similar oracle on how to handle the affair best.

 

I guess in the end, your response is simply going to be based on where you are on your life's journey.

 

Right. I showed different reactions during different stages of my life. They all had their pros and cons.

[LAOLONG]

"Fifteen men on the dead man's chest--

...Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!

Drink and the devil had done for the rest--

...Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!"