Is it possible that ISIS is fake?

[MooNiNite]

Just raising the question to get some opinions. 

 

Perhaps they are somehow beneficially influenced by world powers.

Edited September 1, 2015 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

 

[ChiForce]

They were accidentally created by the West?  Yes.  With the middle east politics, it is always about supporting the opposition in order to topple your enemies.  In the process, you create a new monster,  Saddam Hussein and the Al Queda are pretty much created by the West.  The ISIS is also secretly funded and supported by Turkey.  When the Kurds were slaughtered by the IS, Turkey didn't intervene at all.  In fact ,right now, Turkey is bombing the Kurds and the PKK party under the pretense of fighting the IS.  Ultimately, Turkey wants to topple the Assad regime.  Ironically, it has been the Assad regime, backed by Iran, who is fighting against ISIS. 

 

Well, is the middle east politics here.  If the ISIS is fake, who are these people and countries fighting against so far????     

[MooNiNite]

I just find it strange that all of a sudden we find out about a group 50,000 strong in a territory the US was occupying.

 

Not only that but they have rifles and jeeps and they oppose all of NATO

 

I think that if I had 50,000 people with rifles and jeeps opposing so many nations we would be gone in less than a week. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

Not completely related, but I find it interesting that every single one of the navy seals troops that was involved with killing Bin Laden died. Apparently Obama only received a photo of bin laden and that means he is dead. Then they apparently throw him in the ocean. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by MooNiNite

[idiot_stimpy]

The everyday man believes what he is told.

[dust]

Maybe you should catch a plane over there and see for yourself

[Karl]

I'm certain they are real, but I doubt they form any sort of homogenous group. They aren't an army, but a disparate group made up of genuine fighters, ex military from deposed regimes, tribesman, thugs, rapists, thieves, the simple minded, coerced, unemployed, religious fanatics etc.

 

They are partially a creation of the West through the CIA trained muhajadine and AQ. Part funded by the Arab States. Part ideology and necessity. Part deposed military. They are a great excuse for the West to stay in the Middle East and for those contractors ( security suppliers, weapons manufacturers etc ) to continue to appropriate tax payer funds to line their pockets by supplying weapons and high tech surveillance both in and out of the Middle East. If you don't have a market, then create one-cronyism 101

 

ISIS is the name of a Western jamboree that went side wards, but doesn't present any serious threat and plenty of opportunity. Europe is now being over run by refugees and economic migrants looking to get out of the mess which was always anticipated.

 

It's all part of what is termed 'the great game' which is Russia/China vs the Western empire-lead kicking and screaming by the USA. The waves of migrants into the West is probably punishment for not supporting the U.S. against its avowed arch enemies-which is anyone that refuses to accept the way of the indispensable nation.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Karl

[dust]

The waves of migrants into the West is probably punishment for not supporting the U.S. against its avowed arch enemies-which is anyone that refuses to accept the way of the indispensable nation.

 

Migrants, or refugees?

[Karl]

Migrants, or refugees?

 

Thats the sort of question that can be asked in stable countries, but when an entire Middle East/ North Africa region is being ripped apart and the troubles expand out across the rest of Africa then it's difficult to split one from the other. The West has had its fingers in every pie throughout the region and now we have Turkey, The Saudis, Syrians, ISIS, ISIL, Kurds and several other groups piling into the mix. I can't imagine it will be long before the Iranians are destabilised as well. Who wants to hang about in a country where groups are continually fighting, or the area is getting bombed, where there isn't any work and food/utilities are non existent ? Migrants ? Refugees ? "He looked from pig to man and back again, but could see no difference".

 

 

[idquest]

Migrants, or refugees?

 

To my knowledge the people flowing from the Middle East to Germany pay substantial amounts of money to get there. That puts them into 'migrants' category' for me. Still the impression is that from some point in time the process of migration started to be directed by somebody rather than being chaotic.

[Apech]

She's real

 

[Karl]

To my knowledge the people flowing from the Middle East to Germany pay substantial amounts of money to get there. That puts them into 'migrants' category' for me. Still the impression is that from some point in time the process of migration started to be directed by somebody rather than being chaotic.

 

I would agree. It has been streamlined, but I suppose if the only business is shipping humans about, then supply and demand will we see to it that there are sufficient shippers looking to take refugees money and advertising their services.

[dust]

It was a rhetorical question.

 

 

migrant

An animal that migrates

 

refugee

A person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster

 

 

 

Language matters. Very much. The way we talk about, see, and consequently treat, these people is important.

 

It is hardly excusable to use grossly incorrect terminology when you can find out these very simple definitions at, literally, the click of a button. But I'm pretty sure that you know that migrants are not defined as "refugees with money"; I'm pretty sure your common sense extends at least as far as realizing that not all refugees are penniless, and that in fact many will use all they have, money and life, to flee from war and potential persecution.

 

There are migrants, yes. I have been a migrant. These people we're seeing on the news every day, these people dying in refrigerated trucks and drowning in the ocean, are refugees.

[Karl]

It was a rhetorical question.

 

 

migrant

An animal that migrates

 

refugee

A person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster

 

 

 

Language matters. Very much. The way we talk about, see, and consequently treat, these people is important.

 

It is hardly excusable to use grossly incorrect terminology when you can find out these very simple definitions at, literally, the click of a button. But I'm pretty sure that you know that migrants are not defined as "refugees with money"; I'm pretty sure your common sense extends at least as far as realizing that not all refugees are penniless, and that in fact many will use all they have, money and life, to flee from war and potential persecution.

 

There are migrants, yes. I have been a migrant. These people we're seeing on the news every day, these people dying in refrigerated trucks and drowning in the ocean, are refugees.

 

They are people who don't want to stay where they were. Neither did I presume they were all penniless, but some are economic refugees who just want a better life.

I don't know how we should treat them, but I know we shouldn't have been bombing, destabilising and carving up their countries, or funding tyrants to rule them.

[thelerner]

They're real and they're powerful.  Isis is selling the dream of Islamic utopia.  A message that resonates for millions of disenfranchised young who see poverty and corruption everywhere.  Course there ideology justifies slavery and mass murder of just about everyone else but nothings perfect. 

 

I think they're protected by fact the big powers finally see the area as a powder keg that blows up in the face of invading armies.  Countries with powerful modern tech (and tanks) have gotten burned there and are suffering Middle Eastern exhaust, doesn't hurt that oils prices are low too. 

 

Still if ISIS gains enough power, that'll change.  The Caliph's days are as numbered as Osama Bin Laden's were.  Even less.  Once he goes the movement may splinter.  Either way it'll provide new impetus for a major attack against them, and if the Western powers aren't up for it, then it'll be a coalition of the many enemies Daesh has made.  And that might be a good thing.  A unifier. 

 

We will see. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by thelerner

[Perceiver]

To the op: perhaps it would help if you define what you mean by "fake"?

[Basher]

ISIS is for SISI's !!!

[MooNiNite]

They're real and they're powerful.  Isis is selling the dream of Islamic utopia.  A message that resonates for millions of disenfranchised young who see poverty and corruption everywhere.  Course there ideology justifies slavery and mass murder of just about everyone else but nothings perfect. 

 

I think they're protected by fact the big powers finally see the area as a powder keg that blows up in the face of invading armies.  Countries with powerful modern tech (and tanks) have gotten burned there and are suffering Middle Eastern exhaust, doesn't hurt that oils prices are low too. 

 

Still if ISIS gains enough power, that'll change.  The Caliph's days are as numbered as Osama Bin Laden's were.  Even less.  Once he goes the movement may splinter.  Either way it'll provide new impetus for a major attack against them, and if the Western powers aren't up for it, then it'll be a coalition of the many enemies Daesh has made.  And that might be a good thing.  A unifier. 

 

We will see. 

 

I feel like if they were an organization that actually opposed the USA and NATO they would be wiped out. I feel like the higher powers have an interest in them

[thelerner]

So, you think they don't oppose the US or Nato.  That they're somehow allies?  

 

We could re-establish the Iraq war, move in 30 to 50,000 troops, spend a few 100 billion to root them out.  Then leave and because its an idea, have a new movement start that's called something else. 

[Karl]

I feel like if they were an organization that actually opposed the USA and NATO they would be wiped out. I feel like the higher powers have an interest in them

They most certainly do. It doesn't hurt that the NWO has enacted its plan to flood Europe with cheap labour by pushing everyone out of the Middle East and Africa. Next comes the global crash and world bank, cashless society. None of this stuff is even half secret. They have gotten so brazen they no longer care who knows.

 

Below is the CIA analyst report which has been declassified saying how they can use ISIS.

 

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Pg.-291-Pgs.-287-293-JW-v-DOD-and-State-14-812-DOD-Release-2015-04-10-final-version11.pdf

Edited September 9, 2015 by Karl

[dust]

I don't know how we should treat them, but I know we shouldn't have been bombing, destabilising and carving up their countries, or funding tyrants to rule them.

 

We can certainly agree on this

[Perceiver]

The reason for why isis can flourish is that they are protected and supported by the sunni clans who form the majority in western iraq. The sunnis have been alienated by iraq's shia-dominated government. As a consequence they cooperate with isis, and give them shelter and lend their tribal warriors to their cause. As long as that isnt resolved with diplomatic means it will be very hard to oust isis.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

It is possible for a person of high or middle class to be a refugee. It's possible to not look like a shell of a human being and still have fled from terrible conditions.

The fact that they have money might be the only thing that makes them refugees instead of civilian casualties because they had the means to leave.

People coming to where i am look like they could be my neighbour. If we spoke the same language we'd find out we have very similar lifestyles and experiences. Those that speak english talk to me about everyday stuff.

[Basher]

The TV News is full of film clips of thousands of people coming to Europe. We expect Refugees to have nothing but the clothes on their backs, to look hungry, thirsty, dishevelled, etc. We also expect to see Families, Men, Women & Children, people of all ages.

And indeed on some of the film clips that's exactly what we're seeing.

 

Other clips tell a different story, boatloads / lorry loads of young able-bodied men. Not many women & hardly a kid to be seen. Now these could of course be people believing they'd be asked to become Soldiers if they stayed where they were. But with seemingly no checks being made, because of the deluge of the displaced & lost. There could of course be a lot of people that support the Isis ideology.