who is tired of all this crap?

[doc benway]

All valid points, Bob, and certainly no need to agree with me. 

 

Unfortunately, nearly all mainstream media outlets are owned by a handful of large corporations, all of whom have strong political and economic motivation. Social media is changing that to some degree but there are limitations there as well.

 

One problem is that we can't discriminate that which is omitted. 

Much media bias is created through omission which is much more insidious than the editorial slants that we usually think of as bias.

 

There are two books to consider if you're interested in the topic -

Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News by Bernard Goldberg (which in itself is a bit conservatively biased) and The Powers That Be by David Halberstam (a bit dated but much better journalistically).

 

In the West, I propose that the manipulation of the media is even more effective than under repressive regimes because it is is buried within the illusion of freedom. In more repressed states the manipulation is much more explicit. For sure there is the opportunity to report stories that may be lacking elsewhere, but that very communication - the choice of stories, the omission of others, the subliminal messages, the packaging, the advertising - is expertly crafted to achieve the maximum level of control and manipulation.

 

That said, I do think the Western system is preferable - no question about that.

[3bob]

Steve, that is a good point about obvious corruption compared to subtle corruption with some parallels to the saying of, "keep your friends close and enemies closer".  

[Nikolai1]

Well that's what you must do if that is what you want. I'm not for 'making the best' of living in misery I prefer solutions to limp passivity and placid acceptance. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

When I was 19 an event happened, and I see know how my response to it prefigured all my interest in spiritual liberation.  My Uncle was diagnosed with terminal cancer and his response was to battle the thing head on and outwardly go into complete denial that it could ever kill him.  The final years of his life was spent taking the most aggressive treatments available, while simultaneously feeling incredibly angry and aggreived at the injustice of his situtation.  He made his wife and childen very miserable.  Two weeks before he died he decided he needed a new hobby and bought himself a very expensive camera.

 

His response appalled me.  For me, i could not conceive a more inadequate reaction to death. He was a man who, despite being 60 years old, was totally lacking in spiritual consciousness - the deep unshakable sense that a part of him is untouched by death.  Clearly I already had this, because it was from this place that I judged the situation as so unfortunate.

 

At his funeral, his son read the Dylan Thomas poem you referred to: 

 

Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Most people viewed his attitude as somehow virtuous; I, perhaps, alone saw it as pitiable and weak and the mark of the most unfortunate being.

 

He could not be blamed.  He simply lacked something that is very, very important - the most important thing.  We do all have in varying degrees, and if you don't have it then you must see the futility of trying to talk to those who do.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Karl]

Perhaps then the issue was not with Dylan Thomas, your Uncle or his wife and children ?

 

[Nikolai1]

Perhaps then the issue was not with Dylan Thomas, your Uncle or his wife and children ?

Non comprendo

[Karl]

Non comprendo

 

"his response appalled me"

"He made his wife and children miserable"

"I perhaps, alone, saw it as pitiable and weak"

 

This is what I notice, only you know precisely what it means.

[Nikolai1]

"his response appalled me" "He made his wife and children miserable" "I perhaps, alone, saw it as pitiable and weak" This is what I notice, only you know precisely what it means.

Part of growing up is realising that not everyone is just like you.  To run scared of death appalled me, because it is so pitiable.  It was quite a hard lesson to see that some people are so unfortunate.

 

Not surprisingly, before his diagnosis you would never have considered this person unfortunate.  He had the most amazing large house in the Pennines, massive garden,very near Chatsworth plus cars and holidays galore.  But his consciousness was all geared towards some things and not others.

 

Despite my young age, I instinctively saw spiritual strength as more important than his daily circumstances.

[Karl]

Part of growing up is realising that not everyone is just like you.  To run scared of death appalled me, because it is so pitiable.  It was quite a hard lesson to see that some people are so unfortunate.

 

Not surprisingly, before his diagnosis you would never have considered this person unfortunate.  He had the most amazing large house in the Pennines, massive garden,very near Chatsworth plus cars and holidays galore.  But his consciousness was all geared towards some things and not others.

 

Despite my young age, I instinctively saw spiritual strength as more important than his daily circumstances.

 

Didn't you simply replace one kind of lifestyle for another kind of lifestyle ?

 

I don't think you see the beauty because you perceive only the pain and wish to isolate yourself from it. I understand that something disturbing can have the effect of installing a sense of wall building to avoid the very same situation previously experienced.

 

It isn't a case of wrong or right, but of noticing and accepting the subtle majesty that underlines all things. Even fear, anger, sadness hold a certain repose, they are the human actions of the living. In death there is none but ever lasting peace.

[Nikolai1]

Didn't you simply replace one kind of lifestyle for another kind of lifestyle ? I don't think you see the beauty because you perceive only the pain and wish to isolate yourself from it. I understand that something disturbing can have the effect of installing a sense of wall building to avoid the very same situation previously experienced. It isn't a case of wrong or right, but of noticing and accepting the subtle majesty that underlines all things. Even fear, anger, sadness hold a certain repose, they are the human actions of the living. In death there is none but ever lasting peace.

The mindset I described was when I was 19 years old, twenty years ago!  What shocks us as youths, we come to terms with and accept.  My attitude now is very different.  It is perfectly possible to see the beauty of 'the rage against the dying of the light'.  It is the energy that makes the world go round.  But it is not the only virtue.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Nikolai1

[3bob]

to stick my nose in I'd say there are worse things than death, knowing that death of the body is not the end of the road as many believe it to be nor always of some kind of final "peace".

[Karl]

The mindset I described was when I was 19 years old, twenty years ago!  What shocks us as youths, we come to terms with and accept.  My attitude now is very different.  It is perfectly possible to see the beauty of 'the rage against the dying of the light'.  It is the energy that makes the world go round.  But it is not the only virtue.

 

The virtue is all of humanity and being alive to it.

[Karl]

to stick my nose in I'd say there are worse things than death, knowing that death of the body is not the end of the road as many believe it to be nor always of some kind of final "peace".

 

Death of the body is de facto the end of the individual identity of a person. Peace is probably the wrong word-oblivion, non existence is closer.

[Marblehead]

Every living thing will one day die.  No big thing.  And most aren't even missed after they are gone.

[3bob]

Death of the body is de facto the end of the individual identity of a person. Peace is probably the wrong word-oblivion, non existence is closer.

 

How illogical of you Karl, you know you can not prove such thus it unreasonable to insist on such.

[Karl]

How illogical of you Karl, you know you can not prove such thus it unreasonable to insist on such.

It's for you to prove that it is not the case that death is the end. I don't know anyone who has come back. I've seen several dead people and they don't get up again. That is my assertion based purely on the evidence. I like evidence.

 

If you can provide a clear deductive argument for life after death then that will do.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Karl

[3bob]

certain proofs or certain evidence can not be had either way thus it is unreasonable to insist either way

[Karl]

certain proofs or certain evidence can not be had either way thus it is unreasonable to insist either way

 

That's why the onus of proof is always on the proposer. I can point to dead people and the evidence which supports their terminal demise. That's why I said if you do not wish to provide the evidence or deduction I can live with that. It's only if you insist I'm wrong that I ask for proof. Apart from that it really doesn't matter to me what you personally believe, that's your business.

[Marblehead]

 Apart from that it really doesn't matter to me what you personally believe, that's your business.

Hehehe.  I could use this against you in the "What's Wrong" thread.

[Karl]

Hehehe.  I could use this against you in the "What's Wrong" thread.

 

Probably.

[3bob]

Karl,  It sounds like you are presenting your view as a universal truism thus the onus is on you, I'm presenting an agnostic like view which is not putting forth a supposed truism based on limited evidence one way or the other. 

[Karl]

Karl,  It sounds like you are presenting your view as a universal truism thus the onus is on you, I'm presenting an agnostic like view which is not putting forth a supposed truism based on limited evidence one way or the other. 

 

What. That people die and don't return ? I would say it is most definitely the experienced reality of everyone which accords to scientific proof . If you have evidence to the contrary or can add a deductive argument then please do. Even Aquinas couldn't manage it despite a very good attempt at burying a fallacy within his syllogism. If you say this is what you believe to be true without obvious evidence to the contrary then what can be concluded ? It is always on the proposer to prove it is otherwise than it is plainly seen to be. The evidence of life after death isn't just limited, it is currently non existent except for the charlatans the prey on people's hopes.

[3bob]

charlatans prey in many ways, including those that speak of scientific proof of "death" (as one type of energy transition)  as if it is a final proof of something when any true scientist knows that many such proofs are evolving with newly discovered and greater dimensions to them that supersede the old limits of just one or two dimensions.

Edited September 9, 2015 by 3bob

[thelerner]

As with most things I'm of two minds when it comes to death.

 

its all natural, happily I live, happily i die.

yet

Its a big change and loss.  Everyone I know, I love.. my memories, my personality, my awareness? probably won't be spending a whole lot of familiar time with them.. change.. unknown or unknowing territory..that's alot.  It's worthy to mourn and be somewhat fearful of. 

 

Yet one way or another best to let go gently yet with a touch of remorse for the beauty which is life.. then see what happens next. 

[Karl]

charlatans prey in many ways, including those that speak of scientific proof of "death" (as one type of energy transition) as if it is a final proof of something when any true scientist knows that many such proofs are evolving with newly discovered and greater dimensions to them that supersede the old limits of just one or two dimensions.

We are arguing about reality Bob and not the nature of possibility. You cannot produce either a deductive, or inductive argument based on our knowledge and direct experience which shows an afterlife of any sort.

 

Scientific proof of death is something we have understood for a long time. I'm sure graveyards across the land are full of those who thought death was not the end, but those graveyards attest to error.

 

Imagine a court case in which the accused must prove his innocence and not his guilt. The man is accused of killing his wife. It is absolutely impossible for him to prove he is innocent If all possibilities are open and all evidence is disregarded as falsity.

 

It is a possibility that and infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters would chance on the production of the complete works of Shakespeare. This saying is not supposed to be taken as a model of possibility, but to show how ludicrous a proposition it is. There are neither infinite money's nor infinite typewriters.

 

If you believe everything and anything is possible, you have deliberately suppressed the only tool you possess to know reality 'as it is'. It is fine to dream and to imagine, but eventually, from those fevered thoughts must come an action. If your actions are all based on the possibility of what scientists might discover, then you are living in a future world and not 'in the now', as advocated by many lifestyle guru. Act on what you know is reality to the best that you can know it and that is 'the now'. Then you know yourself as you are, neither as you were, nor as you imagine you might be. When you stand on the solid foundation of reason you will know the universe for what it is and marvel that you did not know it before. :-)

Edited September 9, 2015 by Karl

[Karl]

As with most things I'm of two minds when it comes to death.

 

its all natural, happily I live, happily i die.

yet

Its a big change and loss.  Everyone I know, I love.. my memories, my personality, my awareness? probably won't be spending a whole lot of familiar time with them.. change.. unknown or unknowing territory..that's alot.  It's worthy to mourn and be somewhat fearful of. 

 

Yet one way or another best to let go gently yet with a touch of remorse for the beauty which is life.. then see what happens next. 

 

I wouldn't waste the moment thinking about it. When you are dead there will be no loss, no sadness, no remorse, there will simply be nothing at all, just oblivion. Find your purpose by what makes you truly satisfied in life and do this by finding your true self in order to know what that is. You must first be rid of the false by knowing the real. If you throw away all falsehoods and mysticism you will let your true self shine through and then there is no fear, just incisive action. Death will then be only an inevitable corollary of life and there is no need to concern yourself with it. When it arrives you will have no knowledge of it. Do today, not tomorrow.