who is tired of all this crap?

[Nikolai1]

If you throw away all falsehoods and mysticism you will let your true self shine through and then there is no fear, just incisive action. Death will then be only an inevitable corollary of life and there is no need to concern yourself with it. When it arrives you will have no knowledge of it. Do today, not tomorrow.

There's a brave realism in this that I like, and you are partly right about what you say.  But the incisive action you talk of is only intelligent action when death is totally banished while we live.  Unless we do this we may be led into a reckless carpe diem type attitue which doens't gove death it's due.

 

In reality nobody overcomes death with the 'when it arrives you will have no knowledge of it'.  In our deepest recesses we all doubt this to be true.

[Marblehead]

In reality nobody overcomes death with the 'when it arrives you will have no knowledge of it'.  In our deepest recesses we all doubt this to be true.

This is the paradox concerning death, isn't it?  Are these doubts learned or are they a part of the human psyche?

 

The conclusion I always end up with is that I remember nothing of a before life existence; why would there be some form of after life existence?

 

The pepper seed is planted in the ground, it germinates, matures, bears fruit, then dies.  Can we say that the seeds of the fruit is its after life?  Personally, I don't.  If one of the seeds germinate and grows it will be a totally different plant - the old plant has completed its cycle.

[Nikolai1]

This is the paradox concerning death, isn't it?  Are these doubts learned or are they a part of the human psyche?

 

The conclusion I always end up with is that I remember nothing of a before life existence; why would there be some form of after life existence?

Yes, I'm the same - I don't remember past lives. But what I have experienced is the deathless self, which is the space of pure being within which all living and dying occurs.  It is the empty container but it is chock full with the most vivid sense of identity and and impersonal personality.

 

This makes me open to those who say they can remember their past lives.  It also makes me curious about my own unique afffinities for things that aren't at al in my personal history or the history of my family.

[leth]

I wouldn't waste the moment thinking about it. When you are dead there will be no loss, no sadness, no remorse, there will simply be nothing at all, just oblivion. Find your purpose by what makes you truly satisfied in life and do this by finding your true self in order to know what that is. You must first be rid of the false by knowing the real. If you throw away all falsehoods and mysticism you will let your true self shine through and then there is no fear, just incisive action. Death will then be only an inevitable corollary of life and there is no need to concern yourself with it. When it arrives you will have no knowledge of it. Do today, not tomorrow.

 

If you are so bound by evidence, where is the evidence that we have no loss, no sadness and no remorese when we are dead?

 

There is no conclusive objective evidence of experiencing those things in life, we rely on empirical knowledge of them. And as for what happes to experiences and awareness after death we have no knowledge. To state that there is no loss, no sadness and no remorse in death has no basis in evidence is therefore probelamtic since we can't even objectively measure those phenomena in living entities to build an experiemnt which could produce a null result to conclude that it is likely that such things do not exist after death.

 

Awareness is simply not well research by science, there has been some research on neurological connections to the expereince of awareness, but the phenomena still eludes scientific proof.

[Nikolai1]

To discover the deathless self is to realise that there are two components to your identity:

 

The Nikolai component and the X component.

 

These have nothing to do with each other and the Nikolai is as remote from the X as can possibly be.  They belong to completely different orders of being.

 

But there is still an association between Nikolai and X.  I live that association.

 

But because they are also transcendentally separate, and this association isn't necessary, there is no reason why X couldn't be associated with any mumber of other Nikolai type beings.  In other words, to realise that X is part of you is to realise that all living beings are part of you.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Nikolai1

[3bob]

Karl, Some realize identity is more than a highly evolved bag of bones and flesh with a localized mind - which btw. are very fine and important tools but not true identity... true identity has seen death for what it is - the coming and going of composite and causal form which can no longer bind it and at which point death dies. I'm not sure what you are caught up in but if you don't even see the logic for an agnostic like approach then you are binding yourself to a type of fanaticism with very narrow reasoning.

 

...all of these so called obvious facts you bring up are like two dimensional blocks that can't be used anywhere else expect in a two dimensional format where they do apply, not unlike the darkness that applies inside that cave Plato was using as an analogy.  (which of course is your dismissive minded right to remain stuck in )

Edited September 9, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

If you are so bound by evidence, where is the evidence that we have no loss, no sadness and no remorese when we are dead?

 

There is no conclusive objective evidence of experiencing those things in life, we rely on empirical knowledge of them. And as for what happes to experiences and awareness after death we have no knowledge. To state that there is no loss, no sadness and no remorse in death has no basis in evidence is therefore probelamtic since we can't even objectively measure those phenomena in living entities to build an experiemnt which could produce a null result to conclude that it is likely that such things do not exist after death.

 

Awareness is simply not well research by science, there has been some research on neurological connections to the expereince of awareness, but the phenomena still eludes scientific proof.

 

 

Because there is no evidence to the contrary. Dead is dead. There is no longer any awareness or consciousness. Nobody can give proof for that which does not exist. Unless you have proof of conscious aweness and mind continuing without the body then it must be accepted that it does not occur and has never been found to occur.

[idiot_stimpy]

Is the mind dependent on the body? Or is the body dependent on the mind?

 

That is the critical question.

[Karl]

There's a brave realism in this that I like, and you are partly right about what you say.  But the incisive action you talk of is only intelligent action when death is totally banished while we live.  Unless we do this we may be led into a reckless carpe diem type attitue which doens't gove death it's due.

 

In reality nobody overcomes death with the 'when it arrives you will have no knowledge of it'.  In our deepest recesses we all doubt this to be true.

 

If death was banished there would be no need to do anything at all. What incentive would there be to do anything today when there is always tommorrow and an eternity in which to act ?

 

It does not lead us into a carpe diem attitude, it should lead us to right thought, right speech and right action. It makes us braver and more compassionate in alignment with our own integrity.

[Karl]

Is the mind dependent on the body? Or is the body dependent on the mind?

 

That is the critical question.

 

Neither, there is no duality.

[Nikolai1]

Is the mind dependent on the body? Or is the body dependent on the mind?

 

That is the critical question.

Upon realising the true self this question becomes very easy to answer.  Body and mind become the same substance and alternate in your reality like rapidly cycling seasons.

 

Without realising the true self, the question you answer will remain the great imponderable - just as it has for centuries without any consensus resolution.

 

Questions like these must be settled for ourselves.

[Nikolai1]

It does not lead us into a carpe diem attitude, it should lead us to right thought, right speech and right action. It makes us braver and more compassionate in alignment with our own integrity.

I don't disagree with you on this actually.  I think that bravely accepting the reality of death can and does transform our behaviour.  But I still see this as a staging post.  Beyond accepting death, there is seeing its fundamental unreality.  This is spiritual iberation.  If you don't believe in its possibility then brave stoicism is still major progress.

[Karl]

Karl, Some realize identity is more than a highly evolved bag of bones and flesh with a localized mind - which btw. are very fine and important tools but not true identity... true identity has seen death for what it is - the coming and going of composite and causal form which can no longer bind it and at which point death dies. I'm not sure what you are caught up in but if you don't even see the logic for an agnostic like approach then you are binding yourself to a type of fanaticism with very narrow reasoning.

 

...all of these so called obvious facts you bring up are like two dimensional blocks that can't be used anywhere else expect in a two dimensional format where they do apply, not unlike the darkness that applies inside that cave Plato was using as an analogy.  (which of course is your dismissive minded right to remain stuck in )

 

Identity is identity, you only have to know it. Death cannot be known. Why quote Plato? find out for yourself. Do not take other mens words for your own unless you have developed the ability to know if those words are true.

[Karl]

I don't disagree with you on this actually.  I think that bravely accepting the reality of death can and does transform our behaviour.  But I still see this as a staging post.  Beyond accepting death, there is seeing its fundamental unreality.  This is spiritual iberation.  If you don't believe in its possibility then brave stoicism is still major progress.

 

You still dont understand. It is not about 'bravely' accepting death. It is about not accepting death until the time when death strikes. It is the driver for action because there is a limit. Dont look forward to death and know that it is always waiting for you.

[Nikolai1]

You still dont understand. It is not about 'bravely' accepting death. It is about not accepting death until the time when death strikes. It is the driver for action because there is a limit. Dont look forward to death and know that it is always waiting for you.

So should we be saying to ourselves 'I do not accept that I will die.'

 

Or perhaps we should suppress the thought of death if it ever arises?

 

What's the technique?

[3bob]

Many passing, evolving and apparent identities, (neti, neti) but only one true identity ... Death can be known for what it is (which is connected to life).  But I wouldn't want to force that upon you, btw the Plato quote like any other well known quote is something that a lot of people can relate to thus serving its purpose... so if you can't relate that is your problem, not that of those that can (via whatever level of experience they have of their own)

Edited September 9, 2015 by 3bob

[Nikolai1]

 btw the Plato quote like any other well known quote is something that a lot of people can relate to thus serving its purpose... so if you can't relate that is your problem

You've summed up the problem that is Karl!  He can't relate to a lot of what is discussed.  But rather than see this is an issue of relating, he sees it as an issue of everyone here being wrong about something that he wishes to correct in us.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I'm the same - I don't remember past lives. But what I have experienced is the deathless self, which is the space of pure being within which all living and dying occurs.  It is the empty container but it is chock full with the most vivid sense of identity and and impersonal personality.

 

This makes me open to those who say they can remember their past lives.  It also makes me curious about my own unique afffinities for things that aren't at al in my personal history or the history of my family.

That is a valid consideration.

 

I almost always refer to my understanding of Chi when considering this.

 

I hold to the understanding that there is universal chi (undefined energy) and personal chi (our life energy).  Energy cannot be destroyed but it can take on different forms over time.  Our personal chi is within us while alive but returns to universal chi when we die.  What this energy might become is undefined.  Our personality is gone when our chi leaves our body.

 

So sure, based on what I have just said one could conclude that we all are eternal.  That's a personal concept choice.

[Nikolai1]

That is a valid consideration.

 

I almost always refer to my understanding of Chi when considering this.

 

I hold to the understanding that there is universal chi (undefined energy) and personal chi (our life energy).  Energy cannot be destroyed but it can take on different forms over time.  Our personal chi is within us while alive but returns to universal chi when we die.  What this energy might become is undefined.  Our personality is gone when our chi leaves our body.

 

So sure, based on what I have just said one could conclude that we all are eternal.  That's a personal concept choice.

Well then the question is, can we become universal Chi while the body still lives?

[Marblehead]

Well then the question is, can we become universal Chi while the body still lives?

Hehehe.  I have no freakin' idea.

 

However, this question has been presented to me before in a different context.

 

The question was:  Can we ever know Tao?

 

My direct answer is no.  However, I suggest that we can experience Tao (oneness).  But I think our personal chi would have to remain in our body because this is where our "life force" comes from.

[Nikolai1]

Hehehe.  I have no freakin' idea.

 

However, this question has been presented to me before in a different context.

 

The question was:  Can we ever know Tao?

 

My direct answer is no.  However, I suggest that we can experience Tao (oneness).  But I think our personal chi would have to remain in our body because this is where our "life force" comes from.

So our personal chi is partitioned off from the universal store, until death?

[leth]

Because there is no evidence to the contrary. Dead is dead. There is no longer any awareness or consciousness. Nobody can give proof for that which does not exist. Unless you have proof of conscious aweness and mind continuing without the body then it must be accepted that it does not occur and has never been found to occur.

 

There is no proof of councious awareness with the body either, so thus we are not aware and councious while alive either.

 

Furthermore it is not acceptable to use the absence of evidece to assert the evidence of absence unless there is a reliable theory to test with a null result.

[Marblehead]

So our personal chi is partitioned off from the universal store, until death?

That is my understanding; our personal chi comes from and returns to universal chi at birth and upon death.

[Karl]

There is no proof of councious awareness with the body either, so thus we are not aware and councious while alive either.

 

Furthermore it is not acceptable to use the absence of evidece to assert the evidence of absence unless there is a reliable theory to test with a null result.

 

Do you doubt your existence and your experience ?

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Let's keep in mind too that all the rest of what we are is basically recycled.  What was our body becomes part of other things, including living creatures.