who is tired of all this crap?

[Karl]

So should we be saying to ourselves 'I do not accept that I will die.'

 

Or perhaps we should suppress the thought of death if it ever arises?

 

What's the technique?

 

Death is there, the thought of it cannot be suppressed because it is the engine that drives life. If you think about it or don't think about it then it makes no difference to the fact that it will happen.

 

Why try and think about it in any particular way ? Do you think how you should feel about hunger or thirst ? No. You are hungry and thirsty and that is that. You do not put some imaginary 'you' in the place of the need for food or water. This is the false self. It is because you refuse to use reason to know reality directly. Then when the time is right it will become clear for you, but first you must make a start.

 

[Karl]

You've summed up the problem that is Karl!  He can't relate to a lot of what is discussed.  But rather than see this is an issue of relating, he sees it as an issue of everyone here being wrong about something that he wishes to correct in us.

 

I can relate very easily :-)

 

There is nothing wrong with anyone but what they think is wrong with them-isn't that the subject under discussion right now ? I'm replying to the arguments as they are presented and then it is for you to apply reason and make your own decision about the logic of the argument. It is no different to the arguments you read in your books and courses. You should apply reasoning no matter what.

 

[Nikolai1]

 It is because you refuse to use reason to know reality directly. 

The fact that you think this is possible shows that you either;

 

a) haven't used your reason to explore, through philosophy, why this statement is problematic.

 

b Have explored the problem of knowledge, but are placing all you faith in a logically unjustified objectivism.

 

Either way, you lack.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Karl]

Many passing, evolving and apparent identities, (neti, neti) but only one true identity ... Death can be known for what it is (which is connected to life).  But I wouldn't want to force that upon you, btw the Plato quote like any other well known quote is something that a lot of people can relate to thus serving its purpose... so if you can't relate that is your problem, not that of those that can (via whatever level of experience they have of their own)

 

This quote or that quote is just an appeal to authority. You believe it because you believe the authority that spoke those words. You have not considered that you might possess the power to refute them absolutely. Accept nothing on face value or you will become a fool, a Pinocchio puppet who will dance for another.

 

Plato was a manipulator and he manipulates even now. He taught how to harness men and he was of an elite that split men into metals. Iron, copper, Gold. Worker class, warrior class, priest class, ruler class. This is the caste system which is in all modern societies. It persists because of an adherence to Plato and Aristotle, then later to Hegel and Kant. We have all been subject to a grand experiment throughout history, but the means exists to exit. It is not a utopia, a nirvana or some magical way of seeing, it is instead a birthright which has been systematically denied to you by making you deny its existence. Thus you have cultivated a false self, a brutal psychological duality designed to keep you from seeing through your own deception. In effect we locked ourselves in the box just as surely as Pavlov taught an animal to fear food by repeated pain.

[Karl]

The fact that you think this is possible shows that you either;

 

a) haven't used your reason to explore, through philosophy, why this statement is problematic.

 

b Have explored the problem of knowledge, but are placing all you faith in a logically unjustified objectivism.

 

Either way, you lack.

 

I don't just think it's possible I know it absolutely for what is and how it works.

Study the Trivium method and see for yourself.

[Nikolai1]

In effect we locked ourselves in the box just as surely as Pavlov taught an animal to fear food by repeated pain.

The box is what we are in when we refuse to take ourselves and our experience as sovereign. When we demote ourselves we promote the Matrix.

 

As I've been telling you since you first came, you are in a most unfortunate trap.  

 

Your method, objective reason, is a capitulation of your own experiential sovereignty.  You are afraid of your own sovereignty, and call it bad names like mysticism.  Through your fear you then entrap yourself, and then rail against faceless agents who entrap you.

[3bob]

actually I'm not a brainiac of some kind like you think you are Karl, and know very little of Plato and such but I once came upon the cave story which I liked and have verified in my own way like it or not - so there is no point in your taking off on flights of projection and assumption.

[Karl]

actually I'm not a brainiac of some kind like you think you are Karl, and know very little of Plato and such but I once came upon the cave story which I liked and have verified in my own way like it or not - so there is no point in your taking off on flights of projection and assumption.

 

Brainiac. I doubt it. I'm more like a plumber who knocks pipes to find the blockage. This forum is full of extra clever people and I don't put myself in that group. I'm awed by their abilities in science, technology and the breadth of reading. It's a good job we have people like that.

 

I think I have the Plato cave story in my book I think. It's been a while since I wrote it, but I had intended to include that one. Particularly as I spent my formative years in caves it would have been appropriate :-)

 

It's not necessary for you to have read lots of Plato either, or to know any back ground as such. There are a lot of things that appeal to us. I always used 'be the change you wish to see in the world'. That seemed to mean something once, but it doesn't now.

 

 

[Karl]

The box is what we are in when we refuse to take ourselves and our experience as sovereign. When we demote ourselves we promote the Matrix.

 

As I've been telling you since you first came, you are in a most unfortunate trap.  

 

Your method, objective reason, is a capitulation of your own experiential sovereignty.  You are afraid of your own sovereignty, and call it bad names like mysticism.  Through your fear you then entrap yourself, and then rail against faceless agents who entrap you.

 

Ha, no, unless I've misunderstood you opening sentence- I most definitely am sovereign, self-identified and existent.

I don't regard mysticism as bad. It's simply a fallacy. Thats like saying the eggshell is bad because it prevents the bird escaping. Eventually the shell does break because it must, that's the way of things.

 

You can go on about me if you wish, do your psychoanalysis or whatever and I'm happy to go along for a spin :-) it's not asking questions of reality though.

[Nikolai1]

Ha, no, unless I've misunderstood you opening sentence- I most definitely am sovereign, self-identified and existent. 

You're like the King's butler thinking he's sovereign because he commands the kitchen staff.

 

If you think that there is an external reality that needs logical investigation - if you 100% believe this - then you limit your own sovereignty and disempower yourself.

 

If you even knew how to challenege intelllectually your naive objectivism then you would make a giant leap forward.   Just read Kant.  Oh no you won't because Kant is one of the jailers.  

 

This is your defence against your own freedom.  A true doube-bind.  That which could liberate you, you choose to see as your jailer.  Pitiable!

[doc benway]

I can point to dead people and the evidence which supports their terminal demise. 

You can point to a corpse. 

A living person seems to be more than simply an animated corpse (well, some people anyway). 

[Nikolai1]

You can point to a corpse. 

A living person seems to be more than simply an animated corpse (well, some people anyway). 

A living person can be a corpse, a corpse can be sparkling with life.  It all depends on the state of consciousness of the observer.  

 

Most people have no choice in the matter.  The corpse is death and so shall appear inert and inanimate.  To the wise, who have a choice, the corpse is neither alive nor dead.  What the corpse IS, transcends these ratehr crude labels.

[Karl]

You're like the King's butler thinking he's sovereign because he commands the kitchen staff.

 

If you think that there is an external reality that needs logical investigation - if you 100% believe this - then you limit your own sovereignty and disempower yourself.

 

If you even knew how to challenege intelllectually your naive objectivism then you would make a giant leap forward.   Just read Kant.  Oh no you won't because Kant is one of the jailers.  

 

This is your defence against your own freedom.  A true doube-bind.  That which could liberate you, you choose to see as your jailer.  Pitiable!

 

Kant isn't one of my jailers, he is just a guy who wrote a book. I have no desire to read it because it holds nothing beyond what I can know for myself. I'm already liberated, I don't need some book to do that. People were liberated before Kant began writing and they will be liberated long after his book is discarded. We have always had liberation we just refused to see it.

 

 

[Karl]

A living person can be a corpse, a corpse can be sparkling with life. It all depends on the state of consciousness of the observer.

 

Most people have no choice in the matter. The corpse is death and so shall appear inert and inanimate. To the wise, who have a choice, the corpse is neither alive nor dead. What the corpse IS, transcends these ratehr crude labels.

It's dead Jim. :-)

It is an ex person, deceased, dead, clapped out, squawked its last.

You have been spending too much time with that blokes cat in a box.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Karl

[doc benway]

Back to the OP, something I just came across:

 

[Marblehead]

Back to the OP, something I just came across:

That's pretty close to reality.

[leth]

Do you doubt your existence and your experience ?

 

Actually yes, because i doubt the ontology of the self, but i do not doubt existance.

 

Could you please provide quantifiable and objective evidence of your existance, so that we can build an experiment in which we can test whether it will continue after your death.

 

Awareness is initself a metaphysical question and not a scientific question, and there is no objective quantifiable evidence of awareness that we can use to prove that it ceases after death. Something that has not been proven in the first place can not simple been assumed not existing under certain conditions. In fact nothing can be assumed not existing under certain conditions unless we can test it in the first place.

[Karl]

Actually yes, because i doubt the ontology of the self, but i do not doubt existance.

 

Could you please provide quantifiable and objective evidence of your existance, so that we can build an experiment in which we can test whether it will continue after your death.

 

Awareness is initself a metaphysical question and not a scientific question, and there is no objective quantifiable evidence of awareness that we can use to prove that it ceases after death. Something that has not been proven in the first place can not simple been assumed not existing under certain conditions. In fact nothing can be assumed not existing under certain conditions unless we can test it in the first place.

 

Proof of proof cannot be provided. It is axiomatic in any argument. Existence, self, consciousness and awareness cannot be proven by non-existence, non-self, unconsciousness or non awareness.

 

I certainly didn't say it was a scientific question, but we can study the phenomena of self, consciousness and awareness.

[AussieTrees]

Yes,very tired of all the modern samsara,emotions,birth death,al of it .

Then sleep,wake refreshed,do it all again.

Lacking self confidence,just a bite of a small fish in the shark tank.

Socially isolated v social anxiety.

Then there is the physical decline,aches and pain,don't even bother anymore to look in the mirror these days.

 

Well that was how things used to be,things change entertainment occurs spontaneously,self confidence becomes set in concrete.

Now all that occurs is no longer samsara,we enjoy all of it,life now very short,so wonderment has rebirth,curiosity shows itself.

 

We are special,we are experiencing alive with body,life itself has been fun,the biggest cryptic puzzle we ever attempt.

Soon enough we get our next ticket to ride and off we go.

Rebirth?Nirvana?or maybe off to the animal world,who knows.

 

Can l get a window seat next time?

[doc benway]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/03/14/sharyl_attkisson_gives_ted_talk_on_astroturf_and_manipulation_of_media_messages.html

[Rocky Lionmouth]

In answer to the OP:

I am. Deeply tired of all the crap. The confusion, the misinformstion and the ceaseless bickering and friction that is daily life. Not to say i dont enjoy parts of it because i do, but silver linings are just, well, linings and the stuff that energizes me is so specialized and time consuming that there is seldom room for it.

 

Claiming a slice of silent rest and recharge is usually more expensive energywise than the actual recharge so it's basically just changing the bandaid on a broken finger, and i dont even have kids, wich is something that actually gives me happiness, being childless.

 

I thank Heaven for not being worse off in the end but it's nice to see eleven pages of tired, st least im not alone in the madness.

 

[Marblehead]

Well, just don't be expecting things to change for the better any time soon.  The best we can do, I think, is to ignore as much of it as possible.

[Karl]

Well, just don't be expecting things to change for the better any time soon.  The best we can do, I think, is to ignore as much of it as possible.

 

If I may say so that sounds a touch Ostrichy. Ignoring it won't make it less of a problem.

[Marblehead]

If I may say so that sounds a touch Ostrichy. Ignoring it won't make it less of a problem.

But I can't change it.  Why waste any effort trying to do so?  My life will one day end but the bullshit will live on.

 

Some things and some people need be ignored.  Hey, we even have an "Ignore" button on this board.

[Karl]

But I can't change it.  Why waste any effort trying to do so?  My life will one day end but the bullshit will live on.

 

Some things and some people need be ignored.  Hey, we even have an "Ignore" button on this board.

 

You mean actively ignored ? Then you are exercising free will and ARE doing something about it, contrary to what you have said. Passively wishing it away is doing the Ostrich thing.