The two paths to the Tao

[Nemo]

In the Hua Hu Ching it says the following.

Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you.

 

The first is the path of acceptance.

Affirm everyone and everything.

Freely extend your goodwill and virtue in every direction, regardless of circumstances.

Embrace all things as part of the harmonious Oneness, and then you will begin to perceive it.

 

The second path is that of denial.

Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth.

Peel all the veils away, and you will arrive at the Oneness.

 

Though these paths are entirely different, they will deliver you to the same place: spontaneous awareness of the Great Oneness.

Once you arrive there, remember: it isn't necessary to struggle to maintain unity with.

 

All you have to do is participate in it.

 

Hua Hu Ching chapter 48 Brian Walker translation

 

In my own practice I find myself switching back and forth between these two paths which can make things more complex than needed.

Thus I thought I would ask those on the forum which path they follow and why that given path and not the other?

[arnquist]

Hua Hu Ching? I've never heard of it, I should read it. I think both paths are an escape from reality, I think I've found myself in both extremes at different times in my life. If your goal is a cosmic, transcendental experience through meditation, perhaps one of these paths will work for you. If you're goal is a deeper understanding of things that you can apply to your daily life and decisions, you have to come up with a way of deciding what is true and what is an illusion and how you will respond.

In my own practice I find myself switching back and forth between these two paths which can make things more complex than needed.

Are you sure you're making things more complex than needed? Perhaps you're not making them complex enough. The world is not so black and white, almost everything is a shade of gray. You can't just accept everything or reject everything.

 

Just my thoughts, I'm no expert.

 

WHOA!!! Just looked up the Hua Hu Ching, how have I never heard of this!?!? I thought Lao Tzu only wrote the Tao Te Ching.

Edited October 26, 2007 by arnquist

[arnquist]

Well looky here...

Eighteen

There is no one method for attaining realization of the Tao. To regard any method as the method is to create a duality, which can only delay your understanding of the subtle truth.

[Nemo]

Hua Hu Ching? I've never heard of it, I should read it. I think both paths are an escape from reality, I think I've found myself in both extremes at different times in my life. If your goal is a cosmic, transcendental experience through meditation, perhaps one of these paths will work for you. If you're goal is a deeper understanding of things that you can apply to your daily life and decisions, you have to come up with a way of deciding what is true and what is an illusion and how you will respond.

 

Are you sure you're making things more complex than needed? Perhaps you're not making them complex enough. The world is not so black and white, almost everything is a shade of gray. You can't just accept everything or reject everything.

 

Just my thoughts, I'm no expert.

 

WHOA!!! Just looked up the Hua Hu Ching, how have I never heard of this!?!? I thought Lao Tzu only wrote the Tao Te Ching.

 

To start with the last first. The Hua Hu Ching was not written by Laozi. As is the way with many Taoist texts, the real author gave credit to "The Old Master" rather than take the credit him/their self.

That said. If I sought some grand transcendental experience I would go back to communing with gods and other things with magick. However such things no longer interest me. My one and only goal is to reach the return at this point.

I spend everyday being surrounded by the best and worst of humanity along with everything inbetween and long ago lost the idea of a black and white world. Rather I seek the primal simplicity that is spoken of in the Tao Te Ching. The more complex things seem, the more distracted we are by the 10,000 things. That is why I am trying to unravel the knot of complexity so that I may finally see with eyes unblinded by the 5 colors.

To say something is true, instantly makes it false and to say something is false, instantly makes it true. That is the prime lesson I have learned from Zuangzi so far. Of course my saying that makes it untrue so I have learned nothing at all. I feel like I'm constantly being beaten over the head by a Zen master these days.

That is one reason why I put this question to the forum, being unable to clear my mind enough to understand I was hoping to gain some insight from those here.

[freeform]

and that and that and that and that...

 

not that not that not that not that...

 

 

They're the same really... I think both are important... although Aiwei might disagree - I think I mostly do 'and that' - it's in my nature to see all points of view - so including more and more views tends to (for me) blow out the illusions... 'not that' adherents would say everything is illusion, but I dont go for that at the moment - I think it's an 'and that' kind of thing that I find my body and its sensations and evaluations 'true' - I mean as soon as it goes to the mind (which it has to in this case, as I can only communicate in words) there is illusion there - but it's quite possible to sense things in a different way - where what you get is sensory data not judgement... 'I feel a cold tightness' in my solar plexus instead of 'I'm nervous' - see the difference?

 

Someone into 'not that' might say that even the sensory experience is an illusion... And they're kind of right - this sensory way of experiencing the universe happens on the level of the heart, but there is also the level of the belly - which doesn't work in sensory terms because it's infinite and senses are finite - I mean the belly can hold sensation, but it does not differentiate between 'this sensation' and 'that sensation' - it contains all sensation - and that includes no sensation... the belly is where the duality of everything and nothing gets expressed - ofcourse from the point of view of the belly everything and nothing is not duality - it's the same thing/nothing... you see how language and the mind has trouble with this? lol

 

I'll say something that's bound to trigger some mental judgement (because the words are loaded with illusiory meanings) but I'll do it anyway -

 

not that, or the path of denial is a masculine practice - it is the practice of killing!

 

and that, or the path of acceptance is feminine and the practice of nurturing!

 

now killing and nurturing are very loaded aren't they? but it's basic stuff - what do little boys play at? usually killing each other or bugs or dieing etc - it's fascinating for boys... girls play with beautiful shiny things and with dolls - they nurture what is alive and in flux...

 

So some people go about killing off everything that is not infinite (feels kind of Buddhist in my very limited understanding) and others go about nurturing the flow of the finite... Taoism (again in my limited understanding) engages both of these - Taoism is about the dance between the finite and the infinite - the finite being your mind and the infinite being your belly... You can burn away illusion with the power of not that or you can accept illusion and notice its flow and the infinite within the flow...

 

Taoism is a little more focused on the process of the latter - but then there are as many differences in taoism as there are taoist practitioners... many do play with the fire of 'not that' - but it's usually after the nurturing process...

 

well it's all a confusing business (which is a good thing) - the mind tries to understand what's going down, but I just watch it and smile... (there is also the finite within the infinite and the infinite within the finite, if you're not confused enough yet)... some people see confusion as something undesirable (I've read Aiwei mention this) but I see it as a blessing...

[arnquist]

Well said freeform. I just watched a film called "Dangerous Knowledge" that sort of fits with the ideas of infinity and confusion. It's basically about very intelligent men; mathematicians, physicists, logicians, driven mad trying to solve the problem of infinity instead of just embracing its mysterious nature.

[Nemo]

Very well stated Freeform thank you for replying with such insight.

I tend to live by the motto of truth beyond paradox. So to me confusion can be a blessing even if it is a bit annoying at times.

I did not consider the destructive/creative dynamic of the two paths and I truly thank you for bringing that to my attention. It is something I will need to contemplate for awhile.

[doc benway]

In the Hua Hu Ching it says the following.

Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you.

 

The first is the path of acceptance.

......

 

The second path is that of denial.

.....

 

All you have to do is participate in it.

 

Hua Hu Ching chapter 48 Brian Walker translation

 

In my own practice I find myself switching back and forth between these two paths which can make things more complex than needed.

Thus I thought I would ask those on the forum which path they follow and why that given path and not the other?

I currently follow both and I believe, for me at least, that they can't be separated.

I am open and receptive to what is present NOW - this instant, and again, NOW, whenever possible. At each instant I try to feel "my" presence or being whether it be through physical sensation or emotional sensation or that sense that can't be verbalized of simply "being" in the moment... "I am"

Simultaneously, "I" try not to identify the "I" with the thoughts as they arise and diffuse. The instant the thoughts come, time comes into play, and we try to name the nameless.... THe nameless is the real, the named is just an image, a word or words that can never come close to capturing the reality. The illusion is created by the interpretation of that which is "accepted" by the mind so, in that way, accepting and denying can't really be separated until the illusion is seen through.

In other words, it seems as if I'm "accepting" the instantaneous input or awareness and "denying" the illusion created by linking that awareness to memories and projections into the future. It all sounds so complicated when putting it into words but it's really simple, it just takes a lot of attention/awareness. And the more I practice, the more I enjoy the practice...

[mYTHmAKER]

In the Hua Hu Ching it says the following.

Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you.

 

The first is the path of acceptance.

Affirm everyone and everything.

Freely extend your goodwill and virtue in every direction, regardless of circumstances.

Embrace all things as part of the harmonious Oneness, and then you will begin to perceive it.

 

The second path is that of denial.

Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth.

Peel all the veils away, and you will arrive at the Oneness.

 

Though these paths are entirely different, they will deliver you to the same place: spontaneous awareness of the Great Oneness.

Once you arrive there, remember: it isn't necessary to struggle to maintain unity with.

 

All you have to do is participate in it.

 

Hua Hu Ching chapter 48 Brian Walker translation

 

In my own practice I find myself switching back and forth between these two paths which can make things more complex than needed.

Thus I thought I would ask those on the forum which path they follow and why that given path and not the other?

 

 

This is similiar to the indian philosophies of Kashmir Shavism and Vedanta.

Kashmir Shavism embraces - everything is god - their is nothing that is not god. god being consciousness, energy or whatever. It is all inclusive - including you. It is a path of acceptance and devotion.

Vedanta says not this not this - it keeps peeling away layers - It is more a path of the intellect, of the mind.

When there is nothing left there is everything.

As when we are too yin we bccome yang and when too yang we become yin.

Nothing become everything and everything becomes one.

I tend to be a follower of embracing. It's just much easier for me to understand that everything in the universe is made of the same stuff and if this is so it includes me and all there is and all there isn't and then some.

It resonates with me.