Astral Body in Fourth Way

[Hassein]

Reading some Gurdjieff and Ouspensky books, looks like the first remarkable step is bulding a new body, the Astral Body.
Is not a total immortal body, but it give the possibility to become conscious in another body and have some forms of control on the physical body.

 

Do you think is the Ghost Immortal Body (Gui Xian) in daoist paths?

Is it like a body of total yin?

Anyone attained this level here?

What are your experiences about it?

 

[Chang]

It is always difficult to fit one teaching into the coat worn by another. It never quite fits.

 

Gurdjieff's roots were In Christianity and Islam (Sufi), to attempt to match them with Taoist practices will simply be an intellectual pursuit akin to the attempted completion of a cryptic crossword puzzle.

[Michael Sternbach]

While I agree that we need to be careful superposing one another terms from different traditions, the attempt can sometimes be valuable in providing an extended picture. While there are many variations in classification schemes, different traditions nevertheless refer to the same underlying metaphysical realities after all.

 

I had some experiences during lucid dreams when I found myself in a body of light energy which I call astral body. It feels quite fantastic every time. Now in my personal cultivation, I synthesize elements from both Western and Eastern practices. I recall one dream in which I was clearly aware of a chi reservoir in the Lower Dantien and of the chi flow as it is considered in Taiji.

 

How much my experiences with the astral body resemble what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky describe, I can't say off the top of my head. If you could guide me to relevant texts and chapters that are available online, I will be happy to look into this further.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Hassein]

If you could guide me to relevant texts and chapters that are available online, I will be happy to look into this further.

 

In Search of the Miraculous - Fragments of an Unknown Teaching

http://www.gurdjieff.am/in-search/index.pdf

 

in page 47, 48, 49 you'll find the relevant infos 

Edited September 7, 2015 by Hassein

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Reading some Gurdjieff and Ouspensky books, looks like the first remarkable step is bulding a new body, the Astral Body.

Is not a total immortal body, but it give the possibility to become conscious in another body and have some forms of control on the physical body.

 

Do you think is the Ghost Immortal Body (Gui Xian) in daoist paths?

Is it like a body of total yin?

Anyone attained this level here?

What are your experiences about it?

 

but it give the possibility to become conscious in another body and have some forms of control on the physical body: I haven't thought seriously about Gurdgieff/Ouspenski since the early 1970s at the latest, but based on the material you referenced, I would have to say that, if you mean that the "astral body" body mentioned here is an independent body which can control the physical while in an "out of body experience", than no, that does not seem to be what Gurdgieff means by "astral body", but rather these passages should be interpreted more like the Theosophical Society models, which are best likened the Russian matryoshka doll in which the lower body is "nested" within the higher body, but is not really separable from it, but to develop it means to reorganize oneself so that the "lower body" is now completely integrated with the "higher body" and runs on a different set of "rules", which are determined by the higher body.  Following this analogy developing the Mental would again fuse the two lower bodies with the higher one and create a new type of integration which is run by the rules of the "mental" body.  Finally these are fused into the "will" body, which creates a higher level of integration at which point "immortality" is achieved.  The implication is that the Fourth Way allows one to achieve these goals as part of an integrated practice.  How much training in "out of body experiences" may have been a part of Gurdgieff's teaching cannot be determined from these passages, but based on them it would seem there is no need for such training to achieve "immortality" in Fourth Way teachings.

 

While I don't have time now to enter into a detailed discussion, it is possible to put this in a very clear Indo-European context involving four element theory, Indian Yoga and and also Greek Philosophy from the Pre-Socratics through Hermetic thinking.  There are indications that practices involving "exteriorization" were known and practiced in the West, but the subject is complex and is confused in modern times by different approaches between Continental and Anglo/American occultists to the notion of an "out of body experience".  It would be much more difficult to make any direct comparison to Chinese practices, especially those which are more properly considered native to China, rather than those imported with Buddhism, or influenced by such imports.

 

Do you think is the Ghost Immortal Body (Gui Xian) in daoist paths: Based on the above, I would have to say no, but please bear in mind that this is based solely on reading the referenced passages and some subsequent pages and thinking about them for a couple of hours within the context of the last forty years of study, thought, and practice.

 

I hope this is helpful.

[Hassein]

Very interesting Donald, thanks for your reply!
Now, the next question would be why theories form Indo-Europe, Indian Yoga, Greek Philosophy and Hermetic thinking are so far from Daoist and Buddhist Practices...the goal is the same, but how many differences in the way to reach it!

 

However are there any points in common between all this pratices?
For example, many of western/eastern paths start with introspection and easy forms of meditation to become familiar to our inner life.

In my opinion between all kinds of real paths there are some major points in common, based on the structure of the human being, that is the same on the earth.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Hassein

[Aeran]

Now, the next question would be why theories form Indo-Europe, Indian Yoga, Greek Philosophy and Hermetic thinking are so far from Daoist and Buddhist Practices..

 

 I've always felt that Daoism and Hermeticism are very similar and complementary in a lot of respects. Of course that's a whole other discussion and I don't want to divert this one.

 

As for the astral body - typically speaking, it's not something which one builds, but something which everyone possesses (some Hermetic systems do speak of constructing a body on the astral level and transferring your awareness into it to travel the astral realm without the risks of projecting your own astral body, but this is a temporary construct - kind of like a remote control android). The trick is developing awareness of it.

 

In Daoist terminology, if I had to take a rough shot at it, I would roughly equate it to the portion of your being which exists between the less dense levels of Qi (the less tangible Qi which you need a bit of internal awareness to notice) up until somewhere into the denser levels of Shen (I don't have any kind of direct experience working with those kind of levels of Daoist practice, so I'm going off what I've read and been told here).

 

I think the miscommunication is mainly in the way in which the different traditions divide up the dimension of vibratory energy that exists between the material world and the Divine. It's difficult to define the Astral Body in Daoist terminology because the Hermetic tradition divides the spectrum up into a different number of layers - it's kind of like asking where "mauve" is on a color wheel which only has 12 colors, or where purple starts and stops on a color wheel which lacks clear divisions.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2015 by Aeran

[Spotless]

The idea that you must build it is part of the dogma of Gurdjieff - it is both true and not true - but it need not be so confusing.

In the end - Ouspensky came to find Gurgjieff's rather top down head approach to be generally unskillful means for attaining higher states and certainly Awakening.

 

Overall I have no qualms with either of them and have read everything they have written that was published.

 

The higher bodies do not need to be built so to speak. In other traditions - in all traditions they grow perfectly well on their own if one is truely in practice. Whether they are said to pre-exist - grow to exist or are formed from effort - one does not need to actively "build them" - if one is in practice then dissipation of all sorts of energies is curtailed to some degree and life itself is also transforming energies - with intention this process increases and creates/transforms higher bodies.

 

The higher finer energies build the higher bodies quit automatically if one is in any sort of realized practice. Much of what one finds in the Gurdjieff Forth Way Schools is misunderstood teaching in confounding headiness and built upon perfect pictures that paralyze the students. It can appeal to one with the somewhat refreshing headiness - along with a certain brash boldness and what seems to be real clarity - but it is actually non-pluses with a lack of real well laid out practice - Gurdjieff himself did not like well laid out practice - though he came from/through such practices himself.

 

However along these lines the Theosophical Society - whom Gurdjieff had a strained relationship with - is much clearer and just as refreshing. Their "schools" appear to be no more accomplished in recent years. But - wow - they put out some great stuff and did produce many great realized teachers. And you can download many many of their books for free at The Project Gutenberg.

Try Annie Bessant's stuff - excellent!

Edited September 8, 2015 by Spotless

[FraterUFA]

Cheers, Hassein.

 

 

Reading some Gurdjieff and Ouspensky books, looks like the first remarkable step is bulding a new body, the Astral Body.
Is not a total immortal body, but it give the possibility to become conscious in another body and have some forms of control on the physical body.

 

Do you think is the Ghost Immortal Body (Gui Xian) in daoist paths?

Is it like a body of total yin?

 

 

I would advise against attempting to mix eastern and western systems. The two should be considered separate animals for a variety of reasons but having stated that caution, I will move on (and for future reference, I will not answer any questions regarding eastern systems or which are stated in eastern terminology).

 

 

Anyone attained this level here?

What are your experiences about it?

 

Yes. I have had many experiences in this state of consciousness. My experiences are diverse and I'm not quite sure where to begin. It is a lot like if I were to ask you, "What are your experiences in daily life?" Would you start by telling me about your commute? Your childhood? Your aspirations? Who you spoke with that day?

 

So I will arbitrarily choose to start with the notion that nothing in this state of consciousness is inherently truthful or "spiritual". It is simply the lunar consciousness, eg: that state of consciousness one ordinarily experiences after the death of the physical body. Some Qabalists would refer to it as the Yetziratic world, occultists may refer to it as the astral plane. A modern alchemist (such as yours truly) would simply refer to it as part of the esosphere. Astral isn't a great term but it works for a lot of people, so I'll use it here.

 

This place is considerably less restrained by ordinary physical laws and thus it is far vaster and more complicated that our everyday reality. It consists of an uncountable number of places which are separated by total sensory blackness, what I refer to as "voids". There are usually other intelligences in these places and they may interact with you. Some of these intelligences are human and are intimately familiar with our customs and manners (and sometimes they will even poke fun at you for your clumsiness!)

 

Most of these places are unreachable by the average individual. In fact, most experiences one has here simply take place in a "virtual copy" of one's physical location... This is an astral location comprised of the mental image one has of a familiar place (eg: typically one's bedroom). When one reads about "sleep paralysis", a state in which their body cannot move and yet one sees one's bedroom through their closed eyes, it is taking place here. One is usually alone here but not always... frightening encounters with entities staring over one's body are not uncommon (this intrusion may in fact be what triggers the state, but I digress).

 

The next place one will encounter is a place that I consider to be akin to the common notions of "purgatory". It is a mental construct symbolic of one's temporal (eg: lower) consciousness. It is in this place that one confronts that which they've repressed in their life... and I believe that this confrontation is often experienced violently... or at least in a manner which will induce a great deal of fear. 

 

So as an example, my early childhood experiences instilled a deep fear of loneliness which I had long repressed in my adult life. As I began to awaken to this level of consciousness, I almost always "awoke" in my childhood bedroom. As I learned to wander the house, I discovered that it was almost always deserted. Only once did I encounter my mother, who said something very cryptic and disturbing to me. For a long time I was trapped in this place, unable to leave.

 

I believe that in the ordinary course of events, after one's death they find themselves here and they are forced to confront the very things which they ran from in life, again and again, until such time as they have developed the Understanding to move on and incarnate again. In contrast, I believe that those who have developed sufficient Wisdom and Understanding of the lessons of physical life and have come into contact with their Higher Genius pass on to the Briatic world... they attain conscious immortality and begin to carry on the Greater Work.

 

Interestingly, one of the first stages in Initiatic training is the experience of the Dweller on the Threshold. Once this encounter has been successfully passed, the Initiate is no longer bound to this place. It is the nature of alchemy to speed up the natural course of events and this includes the post-death cycle as well. To put it differently, though I was confined to it for a long period of time, "Purgatory" no longer exists for me.

 

People who are genuinely seeking spiritual illumination can find help and guidance from some of the inhabitants on the so-called astral plane. For me, this guidance has included instruction in how to strengthen the astral body... which is naturally very weak and unable to do much (at least in my case).

 

The astral consciousness must indeed be developed. In the early stages, one finds that they are unable to leave the confines of their physical body. Walking is the next challenge. Then interacting with objects (such as doors) as well as learning the proper use of vision (eg: if you stare at something, you will zoom into it, like a microscope). Flying comes later.

 

As the body strengthens, the senses grow stronger. It is very common to experience partial astral awareness, such as having simultaneous awareness of the astral in one part of the body and physical awareness in the rest. For instance, I once woke up, aware of my legs flying through a dark tunnel while upper body remained in bed. My legs proceeded to have an interaction with an astral intelligence who was working on them, not completely unlike receiving a massage.

 

Oftentimes, only a single sense is active... for instance, astral vision can be experienced while the rest of the senses remain grounded in the physical (this is very frustrating, btw). In my journeys, I find it very useful to exercise all of the senses, especially the senses of smell and taste, before proceeding to do anything more taxing.

 

An example of this: I awoke one time, unable to move and aware of an individual diagnosing my body. I could hear and see, but was unable to move or feel. This individual was speaking to another, who I could not sense and after several minutes, I realized that she was a doctor of some kind (I met her again several months later and we had an interesting conversation but that is a story for another day).

 

The greatest challenge of all, however, is changing locations. There is a technique for it but it requires considerable "astral vitality" (a phrase I just made up for lack of any other). This likely takes many years to develop and I am not yet able to travel reliably. Adding to this is the complication that there exists entities whose primary purpose is to prevent this from occurring... it is these same entities that prevent one from simply leaving "purgatory" before they are ready, and I suspect these have played no small part in feeding the notions of devils and demons throughout history. 

 

 

The idea that you must build it is part of the dogma of Gurdjieff - it is both true and not true - but it need not be so confusing.

 

There's nothing confusing or dogmatic about it. It is simple fact.

 

An infant cannot walk, run, speak or do most things. It is only in the normal course of development that he learns to interact with his environment. The same takes place in the astral realm.

 

In the end - Ouspensky came to find Gurgjieff's rather top down head approach to be generally unskillful means for attaining higher states and certainly Awakening.

 

I could see this being the case, though I also think it is kind of pointless to speculate on the true nature of the relationship between two highly enigmatic individuals, much less making the attempt a century later.

 

I personally believe that some development of the astral body is conducive for forging a link with higher states of intelligence (specifically, man's divine nature). Some individuals with a naturally mystic or artistic inclination are probably more developed and thus downplay the importance of this. Life finds its own way and it seems to have a knack for undermining our logical notions of how things should be done.

 

At the same time, astral experiences are a means, not an ends... and it is easy to fall victim to their glamorous and illusory nature.

 

The higher bodies do not need to be built so to speak. In other traditions - in all traditions they grow perfectly well on their own if one is truely in practice. Whether they are said to pre-exist - grow to exist or are formed from effort - one does not need to actively "build them" - if one is in practice then dissipation of all sorts of energies is curtailed to some degree and life itself is also transforming energies - with intention this process increases and creates/transforms higher bodies.

 

They will develop naturally as you say. In the course of the next ten or hundred thousand years, I suspect most of us here will be perfectly proficient in our yetziratic and briatic vehicles. No special effort is required as long as one is content to wait that long.

 

But they can be developed much faster through certain practices, such as alchemical work in the vegetable kingdom.

 

 I've always felt that Daoism and Hermeticism are very similar and complementary in a lot of respects. Of course that's a whole other discussion and I don't want to divert this one.

 

Good idea if for no other reason that they have very little in common.

 

As for the astral body - typically speaking, it's not something which one builds, but something which everyone possesses (some Hermetic systems do speak of constructing a body on the astral level and transferring your awareness into it to travel the astral realm without the risks of projecting your own astral body, but this is a temporary construct - kind of like a remote control android). The trick is developing awareness of it.

 

So you said two very different things there.

 

I believe it is entirely misleading to use the phrase, "transferring your awareness into it". One does not "transfer awareness" as if it some kind of teleportation technology. I mention this because it is a phrase which mislead me for many years and I know from personal experience that it gives rise to a very erroneous notion.

 

Though you went on to say that "the trick is developing awareness of it"... which is very much the case.

 

But as I mentioned above, the astral body can and in fact, must be built (and it is a body, make no doubt... consciousness cannot exist without a vehicle of expression). Whether this happens accidentally in the course of one's practice, naturally by virtue of temperament or evolution, or artificially (artfully) via other means, it must be done.

 

If it wasn't necessary, then we would all simply be able to do it... but such is not the case.

 

I think the miscommunication is mainly in the way in which the different traditions divide up the dimension of vibratory energy that exists between the material world and the Divine. It's difficult to define the Astral Body in Daoist terminology because the Hermetic tradition divides the spectrum up into a different number of layers - it's kind of like asking where "mauve" is on a color wheel which only has 12 colors, or where purple starts and stops on a color wheel which lacks clear divisions.

 

No offense, but none of this is true Hermeticism... just mainstream occult BS.

 

Best, 

UFA

[Spotless]

Cheers, Hassein.

 

 

 

 

 

I would advise against attempting to mix eastern and western systems. The two should be considered separate animals for a variety of reasons but having stated that caution, I will move on (and for future reference, I will not answer any questions regarding eastern systems or which are stated in eastern terminology).

 

 

 

 

Yes. I have had many experiences in this state of consciousness. My experiences are diverse and I'm not quite sure where to begin. It is a lot like if I were to ask you, "What are your experiences in daily life?" Would you start by telling me about your commute? Your childhood? Your aspirations? Who you spoke with that day?

 

So I will arbitrarily choose to start with the notion that nothing in this state of consciousness is inherently truthful or "spiritual". It is simply the lunar consciousness, eg: that state of consciousness one ordinarily experiences after the death of the physical body. Some Qabalists would refer to it as the Yetziratic world, occultists may refer to it as the astral plane. A modern alchemist (such as yours truly) would simply refer to it as part of the esosphere. Astral isn't a great term but it works for a lot of people, so I'll use it here.

 

This place is considerably less restrained by ordinary physical laws and thus it is far vaster and more complicated that our everyday reality. It consists of an uncountable number of places which are separated by total sensory blackness, what I refer to as "voids". There are usually other intelligences in these places and they may interact with you. Some of these intelligences are human and are intimately familiar with our customs and manners (and sometimes they will even poke fun at you for your clumsiness!)

 

Most of these places are unreachable by the average individual. In fact, most experiences one has here simply take place in a "virtual copy" of one's physical location... This is an astral location comprised of the mental image one has of a familiar place (eg: typically one's bedroom). When one reads about "sleep paralysis", a state in which their body cannot move and yet one sees one's bedroom through their closed eyes, it is taking place here. One is usually alone here but not always... frightening encounters with entities staring over one's body are not uncommon (this intrusion may in fact be what triggers the state, but I digress).

 

The next place one will encounter is a place that I consider to be akin to the common notions of "purgatory". It is a mental construct symbolic of one's temporal (eg: lower) consciousness. It is in this place that one confronts that which they've repressed in their life... and I believe that this confrontation is often experienced violently... or at least in a manner which will induce a great deal of fear. 

 

So as an example, my early childhood experiences instilled a deep fear of loneliness which I had long repressed in my adult life. As I began to awaken to this level of consciousness, I almost always "awoke" in my childhood bedroom. As I learned to wander the house, I discovered that it was almost always deserted. Only once did I encounter my mother, who said something very cryptic and disturbing to me. For a long time I was trapped in this place, unable to leave.

 

I believe that in the ordinary course of events, after one's death they find themselves here and they are forced to confront the very things which they ran from in life, again and again, until such time as they have developed the Understanding to move on and incarnate again. In contrast, I believe that those who have developed sufficient Wisdom and Understanding of the lessons of physical life and have come into contact with their Higher Genius pass on to the Briatic world... they attain conscious immortality and begin to carry on the Greater Work.

 

Interestingly, one of the first stages in Initiatic training is the experience of the Dweller on the Threshold. Once this encounter has been successfully passed, the Initiate is no longer bound to this place. It is the nature of alchemy to speed up the natural course of events and this includes the post-death cycle as well. To put it differently, though I was confined to it for a long period of time, "Purgatory" no longer exists for me.

 

People who are genuinely seeking spiritual illumination can find help and guidance from some of the inhabitants on the so-called astral plane. For me, this guidance has included instruction in how to strengthen the astral body... which is naturally very weak and unable to do much (at least in my case).

 

The astral consciousness must indeed be developed. In the early stages, one finds that they are unable to leave the confines of their physical body. Walking is the next challenge. Then interacting with objects (such as doors) as well as learning the proper use of vision (eg: if you stare at something, you will zoom into it, like a microscope). Flying comes later.

 

As the body strengthens, the senses grow stronger. It is very common to experience partial astral awareness, such as having simultaneous awareness of the astral in one part of the body and physical awareness in the rest. For instance, I once woke up, aware of my legs flying through a dark tunnel while upper body remained in bed. My legs proceeded to have an interaction with an astral intelligence who was working on them, not completely unlike receiving a massage.

 

Oftentimes, only a single sense is active... for instance, astral vision can be experienced while the rest of the senses remain grounded in the physical (this is very frustrating, btw). In my journeys, I find it very useful to exercise all of the senses, especially the senses of smell and taste, before proceeding to do anything more taxing.

 

An example of this: I awoke one time, unable to move and aware of an individual diagnosing my body. I could hear and see, but was unable to move or feel. This individual was speaking to another, who I could not sense and after several minutes, I realized that she was a doctor of some kind (I met her again several months later and we had an interesting conversation but that is a story for another day).

 

The greatest challenge of all, however, is changing locations. There is a technique for it but it requires considerable "astral vitality" (a phrase I just made up for lack of any other). This likely takes many years to develop and I am not yet able to travel reliably. Adding to this is the complication that there exists entities whose primary purpose is to prevent this from occurring... it is these same entities that prevent one from simply leaving "purgatory" before they are ready, and I suspect these have played no small part in feeding the notions of devils and demons throughout history. 

 

 

 

 

 

There's nothing confusing or dogmatic about it. It is simple fact.

 

An infant cannot walk, run, speak or do most things. It is only in the normal course of development that he learns to interact with his environment. The same takes place in the astral realm.

 

 

 

I could see this being the case, though I also think it is kind of pointless to speculate on the true nature of the relationship between two highly enigmatic individuals, much less making the attempt a century later.

 

I personally believe that some development of the astral body is conducive for forging a link with higher states of intelligence (specifically, man's divine nature). Some individuals with a naturally mystic or artistic inclination are probably more developed and thus downplay the importance of this. Life finds its own way and it seems to have a knack for undermining our logical notions of how things should be done.

 

At the same time, astral experiences are a means, not an ends... and it is easy to fall victim to their glamorous and illusory nature.

 

 

 

They will develop naturally as you say. In the course of the next ten or hundred thousand years, I suspect most of us here will be perfectly proficient in our yetziratic and briatic vehicles. No special effort is required as long as one is content to wait that long.

 

But they can be developed much faster through certain practices, such as alchemical work in the vegetable kingdom.

 

 

 

Good idea if for no other reason that they have very little in common.

 

 

 

So you said two very different things there.

 

I believe it is entirely misleading to use the phrase, "transferring your awareness into it". One does not "transfer awareness" as if it some kind of teleportation technology. I mention this because it is a phrase which mislead me for many years and I know from personal experience that it gives rise to a very erroneous notion.

 

Though you went on to say that "the trick is developing awareness of it"... which is very much the case.

 

But as I mentioned above, the astral body can and in fact, must be built (and it is a body, make no doubt... consciousness cannot exist without a vehicle of expression). Whether this happens accidentally in the course of one's practice, naturally by virtue of temperament or evolution, or artificially (artfully) via other means, it must be done.

 

If it wasn't necessary, then we would all simply be able to do it... but such is not the case.

 

 

 

No offense, but none of this is true Hermeticism... just mainstream occult BS.

 

Best, 

UFA

 

It looks as though you are beginning to have a fair idea of some of this stuff though your take on purgatory is from the movies - I am quite adept in this and one does not have to wait long at all for the higher bodies to develop given simple regular practice in any number of realized practices. (By not long I do mean a few years generally)

 

Fear is the greater obstacle in growth along these lines - good regular practice in "occult BS" from the finest of traditions will result in well developed higher bodies.

 

However much you have developed higher bodies - thought control and other tempering factors are much more important than having the vehicle - without the control - it comes out pretty much as FraterUSA described his experiences.

 

A solid and clear practice - not an intellectually interesting "quest" - or an approach that is "doing" - but one of non-doing - fostering stillness in awareness - a non-labeling awareness.

 

This occult BS will take you very far.

 

[Aeran]

No offense, but none of this is true Hermeticism... just mainstream occult BS.

 

Best, 

UFA

 

In what sense specifically? Genuinely interested.

[FraterUFA]

In what sense specifically? Genuinely interested.

 

In the sense that color exercises and theories were introduced by later authors in response to imaginations coming from the 19th century occult revival. They do not play a role in traditional Hermetic training. My objection is not on the grounds of traditionalism but simply that these later additions contribute nothing in the way of effectiveness... and merely one's progress in what was originally a very fast, very efficient method.

 

Best,

UFA

Edited September 9, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

It looks as though you are beginning to have a fair idea of some of this stuff though your take on purgatory is from the movies - I am quite adept in this and one does not have to wait long at all for the higher bodies to develop given simple regular practice in any number of realized practices. (By not long I do mean a few years generally) Fear is the greater obstacle in growth along these lines - good regular practice in "occult BS" from the finest of traditions will result in well developed higher bodies. However much you have developed higher bodies - thought control and other tempering factors are much more important than having the vehicle - without the control - it comes out pretty much as FraterUSA described his experiences. A solid and clear practice - not an intellectually interesting "quest" - or an approach that is "doing" - but one of non-doing - fostering stillness in awareness - a non-labeling awareness. This occult BS will take you very far.

 

It seems that we agree in large part so I'm guessing that you misunderstood my comment about mainstream occult BS. It was directed specifically at the color wheel stuff.

 

Best,

UFA

[Michael Sternbach]

Hello again Hassein,

 

I did my homework. I agree with Gurjieff that there are several "bodies", from the physical over the emotional (what G calls astral) and mental to the spiritual. This simple scheme reflects the four Aristotelian elements, Jung's four functions etc. There are more complex schemes to be sure, it really seems to boil down to where you like to draw the lines, as Aeran demonstrated so nicely by his colour circles.

 

It should be understood that all the metaphysical traditions speak of the same subtle realities, only from somewhat different perspectives. Regardless of your particular outlook being Hellenistic, Indian, Chinese, whatnot in origin, the relatively simple things beheld are ever the same, and the perceptions can be compared and sometimes blended as to render a more complete picture. This requires expertise in several areas; there is much work to be done by competent occultists.

 

I don't quite agree with G that the subtle bodies need to be created; they are where our feeling, thinking, intuiting happens in reality, we couldn't function without them. Nevertheless, there is some truth to what G said, as these bodies can be actualized to varying degrees, depending on their cultivation in this life or a previous one.

 

There is an ancient model according to which, prior to incarnation, the soul descends from the stars (but you could also say, from Infinity), through the spheres of the planets of the solar system, all the way down to Earth. In each sphere, it clothes itself in a particular kind of subtle matter. Thus, it forms an "astral vehicle" (astroeides ochema) while it obtains traits like desires, thinking etc which it will express in its eventual physical existence.

 

Which body I am using for my astral trips (indeed sometimes to other planets), I cannot say with certainty, as I found no label on it. However, I recall one such experience on a plane of luminous fog which was all around me and also inside me, especially in the area of the Lower Dantian. It looked and felt just awesome. It was what Hermeticists call luminous ether and Daoists call chi. In a related experience, I saw the same kind of fog being emitted through the hand chakras (Laogong in Chinese) when doing Taiji punches.

 

I hope this helps. If you have any questions, let me know, I will do my best to answer them.

[manitou]

I've been a studier of comparative philosophy of all sorts for about 40 years.  My personal experience is that when you follow all philosophies far enough (or deep enough) they all seem to end up in the same place; the I Am of all of us.  They seem to come together in the hidden dynamics of metaphysics once the structure of the philosophy or religion has been transcended.

[FraterUFA]

I've been a studier of comparative philosophy of all sorts for about 40 years.  My personal experience is that when you follow all philosophies far enough (or deep enough) they all seem to end up in the same place; the I Am of all of us.  They seem to come together in the hidden dynamics of metaphysics once the structure of the philosophy or religion has been transcended.

 

I could not say from personal experience, though many have said as much. I do not measure my ruler by other rulers.

 

What I do know is that the paths differ for very good reasons. Some are gentle, long and winding, others are steep and straight, most end abruptly well short of the goal. It is as it should be, as we are not born with the same temperaments or abilities.

 

But all paths begin in the fog of self-deception and ignorance. The way up entails an acceptance that what one needs to hear is the opposite of what they would like to hear. Few possess the humility to break free of intellectual pride.

 

Best,

UFA

[FraterUFA]

In the interest of pushing this conversation in the direction of Hassein's original question, I have decided to share one of my earlier experiences, as I wrote it at the time. 

 

Some background may be helpful. At the time, I had been having OBEs once every few days. With a few exceptions, I would find myself confined to a particular location with no other intelligences around. Any attempt to leave would result in immediate return to my physical body or on one occasion, a deliberate intercession by a dark entity which took on a shadow form.

 

I have several observations about this about this particular OBE. First, that there is no "spiritual meaning" behind it. It is simply an experience, with perhaps no other significance in that it contributed to my growing awareness of non-physical consciousness. Second, it was the first time that I tried to use my voice while out of body and I found it very difficult. Third, the ordinary cognitive faculty Ruach) does not function in the usual manner while in this state; I find it typically operates at a reduced level of activity and that is the case here. 

 

 

I lay awake for quite a long time, though drifting every so often into a light dream state. I wake from a light sleep feeling my legs floating above me. I grow tired of this and decide to see if I can lift my head out. I push up and my head and chest lift up. I do this a number of times, but never get free. Finally, with a big push I exit completely.

 

I wave my arms in front of me and they become visible. I am in a small room. Everything seems a bit fuzzy, not quite real. It looks to be a messy dorm room. I walk out into the hall.

 

I decide to ask for assistance… “if anyone is here…” but my voice cuts out. It is but a tiny whisper.

 

I try again, “if someone is here and can hear me, please help me…” my voice is croaking. I have never tried to speak out loud before.

 

I go in another room and look around. I could try to leave this place but decide instead to search for a phone. I find one in a third room.

 

It’s an old rotary phone. I pick it up and hear a bell clinging inside. I look closely at it and the dial turns into a jumble of push buttons. I am not surprised that all of the numbers aren't there, but I see a “4” in the middle along with the number "1". It gives me an idea.

 

I pick up the phone but there is no dial tone. I dial “411”. [Note: this is the old US phone number for general information]

 

I wait… there is no ring. I think to myself that this is not leading anywhere. But I continue to wait anyway.

 

Finally, I hear a voice.

 

It is garbled at first but I focus my hearing and eventually the words become clear. It’s a woman’s voice. It sounds like a recording and I pick it up in the middle of a sentence:

 

"...distributed communication. You have requested original level translocation..."

 

Everything goes dark and I wake up.

[Aeran]

Good idea if for no other reason that they have very little in common.

 

Agree to disagree, I guess.

 

 

So you said two very different things there.

 

I believe it is entirely misleading to use the phrase, "transferring your awareness into it". One does not "transfer awareness" as if it some kind of teleportation technology. I mention this because it is a phrase which mislead me for many years and I know from personal experience that it gives rise to a very erroneous notion.

 

 

I'm sorry you were misled for many years, what language do you feel clarifies the concept most fully?

 

 

Perhaps better then to say "transfer the majority of your conscious awareness, for the purpose of using this portion of your being to interact with it's associated environment," as of course some degree of subconscious (for lack of a better word) awareness remains within all portions of an individual's being at all times.

 

Though you went on to say that "the trick is developing awareness of it"... which is very much the case.

 

But as I mentioned above, the astral body can and in fact, must be built (and it is a body, make no doubt... consciousness cannot exist without a vehicle of expression). Whether this happens accidentally in the course of one's practice, naturally by virtue of temperament or evolution, or artificially (artfully) via other means, it must be done.

 

If it wasn't necessary, then we would all simply be able to do it... but such is not the case.

 

I would only disagree with you here in your use of the word "built," as it implies that the thing being built had no prior existence before the active process of building was taken up. In my own experience (granted, not as extensive as many), and in every explanation of the concept I've ever heard or read, the astral body (or whatever terminology you prefer) is something which exists for the whole of one's life, necessarily, as without it one cannot live, it is just that most people have no conscious awareness of it and it maintains a state of semi-dormancy, functioning just enough to allow the individual to operate on a physical and mental level.

 

It does, however, have to be developed and strengthened through use and conscious effort. - like someone who had been quadriplegic their whole life, then suddenly regained use of their body. They would have to put great effort into developing awareness of their body, learning to move their limbs, build muscular strength and so on, but the body existed even when they couldn't feel or control it (again, by definition, if it had not, they would have been dead).

 

 

In the sense that color exercises and theories were introduced by later authors in response to imaginations coming from the 19th century occult revival. They do not play a role in traditional Hermetic training. My objection is not on the grounds of traditionalism but simply that these later additions contribute nothing in the way of effectiveness... and merely one's progress in what was originally a very fast, very efficient method.

 

Best,

UFA

 

I used the color wheel/spectrum metaphor as an easy, universal way of explaining the concept, I never claimed it originated in Hermetic thought.

 

Although I'm not sure why you're getting worked up about the distinction, I'm curious, what exactly would you call "True Hermeticism"? Because everyone seems to have a different definition.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Aeran

[FraterUFA]

I used the color wheel/spectrum metaphor as an easy, universal way of explaining the concept, I never claimed it originated in Hermetic thought.

 

I think the miscommunication is mainly in the way in which the different traditions divide up the dimension of vibratory energy that exists between the material world and the Divine. It's difficult to define the Astral Body in Daoist terminology because the Hermetic tradition divides the spectrum up into a different number of layers - it's kind of like asking where "mauve" is on a color wheel which only has 12 colors, or where purple starts and stops on a color wheel which lacks clear divisions.

 

Fair enough. I highlighted the above so you could see where my confusion stemmed from.

 

 

Although I'm not sure why you're getting worked up about the distinction,

 

What leads you to believe I'm worked up?

 

Hermeticism is a science and productive discussion of it calls for precision. What we see bandied around here in connection with it is typical popular Taoism and layers of hearsay and theory spewed by modern authors.

 

Donald plays his role in promulgating and correcting muddled views on Platonism. I try to do the same when it comes to Hermeticism for the benefit of anyone truly interested in the subject (eg: not mere hobbyists).

 

I'm curious, what exactly would you call "True Hermeticism"? Because everyone seems to have a different definition.

 

Everyone seems to have a different definition because few people have actually bothered to study the old texts and even fewer have been initiated under the watchful eye of an Adept. 

 

Paul Case devised an entire metaphysical practice around the color wheel, as did H Spencer Lewis as part of the AMORC teachings. Both were preceded - and likely inspired - by the Golden Dawn, who had their own uber-intellectual color scales. 

 

The birth of the Golden Dawn lies in the discovery of the Cipher Manuscripts. One version of the story behind these manuscripts states that they had their origin with an adept of the German Gold-und-Rosenkreuz. If that is true, it would indicate a connection (though a tenuous one) with the last publicly known Hermetic order which actively practiced alchemy. There is considerable doubt on the authenticity of this manuscript however.

 

Furthermore, the cipher manuscripts (to my knowledge) contain no references to color attributions. So the evidence leads us to believe that what we are dealing with here is an artifact of 19th-century occult revival, which like so many other popular notions today, passes for "truth" simply because its origins have been buried in time and few people are willing to research them with a critical eye.

 

This is not to say that we should reject everything simply on the basis that it is new. But we should be able to point to some evidence that it is both necessary and effective and that evidence is sorely lacking in this case (despite Anne Davies claims of miracle cures).

 

As for what constitutes "true Hermeticism", it is not very mysterious and it is rather a simple thing to research on your own. We know an awful lot about the practices and philosophies of many Hermetic adepts between the 14th and 18th centuries. Much of it can be found online. Start with the academics (Jennifer Rampling has written some excellent papers), then proceed to AE Waite's "Secret Tradition" books, and then move on to the writings of the old adepts themselves. Curiosity will be well rewarded.

 

Best,

UFA

[Aeran]

Fair enough. I highlighted the above so you could see where my confusion stemmed from.

 

As I said, it was a metaphor, not an attempt to lay out any kind of color-based cosmological schema and claim it was based on any kind of Hermetic doctrine.

 

 

What leads you to believe I'm worked up?

 

Your language, "mainstream occult bs" for starters, and people tend to not throw around the phrase "no offense" unless they feel like what they're going to say is offensive.

 

Hermeticism is a science and productive discussion of it calls for precision. What we see bandied around here in connection with it is typical popular Taoism and layers of hearsay and theory spewed by modern authors.

 

Yup, it's called the internet

 

Everyone seems to have a different definition because few people have actually bothered to study the old texts and even fewer have been initiated under the watchful eye of an Adept.

 

But the question is "how old?" There are people who claim that "True Hermeticism" lies solely in the teachings of the classical Mystery Schools and the texts they left behind, and that if it came in after the burning of the Library of Alexandria, it doesn't qualify.

 

There are also people who claim that any mystical practice in the Western world which draws vaguely from the Graeco-Egyptian tradition or uses some of the terminology stemming from from it qualifies as Hermetic. And of course people claiming anything in between.

 

In your case, the focus seems to be on the Medieval/Renaissance/Enlightenment era practitioners of Europe in general and the Rosicrucians in particular, correct?

 

ps: didn't expect you to reply so fast, I editted my last post to respond to the comments you made in your second reply to my query.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Aeran

[Michael Sternbach]

The underlying assumption seems to be that works written after the 18th century are inferior and just a distortion of genuine Hermeticism, overall.

 

I considered this view for awhile and concluded that it is inaccurate as a general statement. Hermeticism is not merely an ancient teaching set in stone; in many ways, it is an ever evolving science.

 

In more general terms, nothing is good or bad, just because it's ancient or modern.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Paul Case devised an entire metaphysical practice around the color wheel, as did H Spencer Lewis as part of the AMORC teachings. Both were preceded - and likely inspired - by the Golden Dawn, who had their own uber-intellectual color scales. 

 

The birth of the Golden Dawn lies in the discovery of the Cipher Manuscripts. One version of the story behind these manuscripts states that they had their origin with an adept of the German Gold-und-Rosenkreuz. If that is true, it would indicate a connection (though a tenuous one) with the last publicly known Hermetic order which actively practiced alchemy. There is considerable doubt on the authenticity of this manuscript however.

 

One version of the story behind these manuscripts states that they had their origin with an adept of the German Gold-und-Rosenkreuz: So the evidence leads us to believe that what we are dealing with here is an artifact of 19th-century occult revival, which like so many other popular notions today, passes for "truth" simply because its origins have been buried in time and few people are willing to research them with a critical eye.

 

Paul Case devised an entire metaphysical practice around the color wheel: Though Agrippa gives attributions of colors to Planets, etc. in Chapter 49 of Volume one of his Three Books of Occult Philosophy, color wheels seem to have been developed by Newton, a famous alchemist wannabe, from his work with the colors of the spectrum in the late Seventeenth Century.  They were adopted by artists in the Eighteenth Century.

 

One version of the story behind these manuscripts states that they had their origin with an adept of the German Gold-und-Rosenkreuz: I never thought that this was a convincing account.

 

Furthermore, the cipher manuscripts (to my knowledge) contain no references to color attributions: The origin of the complex color scales of the Golden Dawn probably owes more to Mrs. MacGregor-Mathers and her art study at the Slade School than anything else, though an interesting case can be made that these ideas are an adaptation of ideas that occur in Plato's Philebus and that they are a useful systemization and extension of traditional correspondences.  The ideas in the Philebus are specifically applied to musical notes and letters of the alphabet, whether this was correlated with colors within higher teachings of the Golden Dawn or later, as appears in P. F. Case's work is not clear.

 

See The Enjoyment and Use of Color by Walter Sargent for a good introduction to Nineteenth Century color theory in art.  You will see what I mean.

[Michael Sternbach]

Paul Case devised an entire metaphysical practice around the color wheel: Though Agrippa gives attributions of colors to Planets, etc. in http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrippa/agripp1c.htm#chap49]Chapter 49 of Volume one of his Three Books of Occult Philosophy[/url], color wheels seem to have been developed by Newton, a famous alchemist wannabe, from his work with the colors of the spectrum in the late Seventeenth Century. They were adopted by artists in the Eighteenth Century.

Another colour wheel which became very influential on occultism is the one developed by Goethe. It is based on a six-star (hexagram) and depicts the complementary colour pairs. In the Golden Dawn scheme, the colours which are complementary to the colours of the elements play a certain role (they are called flash colours.)

Edited September 10, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[FraterUFA]

The underlying assumption seems to be that works written after the 18th century are inferior and just a distortion of genuine Hermeticism, overall.

 

This is actually not the case, as I stated in my previous response. The most lucid writing on Hermeticism and alchemy occurred in the last few decades, and some of the most authoritative and believable in the last century. Cockran, Fulcanelli, Becker are excellent sources. There are others but they won't hit the mainstream for another couple of decades or so, if at all.

 

I considered this view for awhile and concluded that it is inaccurate as a general statement. Hermeticism is not merely an ancient teaching set in stone; in many ways, it is an ever evolving science.

 

Evolving in the sense that our understanding of it evolves, not that the principles and laws behind it do. I do not object at all to new expressions of the Hermetic science... in fact, they are completely necessary (one of the tenents of Hermeticism is that the principles of the art must be rediscovered by each student). But virtually all of which is accepted as Hermeticism has no basis in experience or reality. It is intellectual theory which jives with neither the above or the below.

 

For instance, relatively few students or writers have an accurate understanding of the three principles. This is about as basic as it gets and yet they make gross errors because they haven't bothered to prove their ideas in the inner or outer lab.

 

In more general terms, nothing is good or bad, just because it's ancient or modern.

 

I agree. See my previous post.

 

Best,

UFA

 

[Aeran]

Cockran, Fulcanelli, Becker are excellent sources. There are others but they won't hit the mainstream for another couple of decades or so, if at all.

 

No reason to not name them. Even though I acknowledge the limitations of the written word as a means of transmitting esoteric knowledge, I'm always looking for more good authors to read.