Astral Body in Fourth Way

[Michael Sternbach]

Okay, UFA, thanks for the clarification.

[FraterUFA]

But the question is "how old?" There are people who claim that "True Hermeticism" lies solely in the teachings of the classical Mystery Schools and the texts they left behind, and that if it came in after the burning of the Library of Alexandria, it doesn't qualify.

 

There are also people who claim that any mystical practice in the Western world which draws vaguely from the Graeco-Egyptian tradition or uses some of the terminology stemming from from it qualifies as Hermetic. And of course people claiming anything in between.

 

In your case, the focus seems to be on the Medieval/Renaissance/Enlightenment era practitioners of Europe in general and the Rosicrucians in particular, correct?

 

Most of the above. Hermetic thought can rightly be traced back to ancient Egypt and Sumeria. The development of higher consciousness is marked by the evolution of the Sumerian myths. Alchemy likely had its origin in one of these regions as well. In the Am Duat can be found a familiar initiatory practice, still used today. And the roots of the Qabalah lie in Chaldean cosmology. 

 

As European civilization went on the decline, the Hermetic tradition found its new caretakers in the Muslim world. Its return west began as early as the ninth century through modern-day Spain, Italy and Germany. The modern (written) Qabalah was birthed in Southern France. Alchemical knowledge was likely channeled by the Sufis by way of the Templars (or those behind them).

 

That the tradition evolved over time is undoubted (and it still is evolving). However, it was transmitted from Adept to student in an unbroken chain. This claim may sound impossible to those on the outside but the training itself provides proof that this must be the case.

 

What I refer to as "true Hermeticism" bears several hallmarks. First, an inner practice which leads to spiritual illumination. Second, a spiritual transmission from an Adept... one cannot self-initiate. Third, a way of life which we would today decompose as magic, alchemy or mysticism, but which in reality is all of the above. Fourth, a scientific approach to inner and outer reality (the two being inseparable from one another).

 

As for Rosicrucianism, I think it is likely the Rosicrucians of the 17th century were part of this living tradition. I consider it to require a great stretch of the imagination to believe that today's neo-Rosicrucians still are.

 

Best,

UFA

[FraterUFA]

I just noticed we are going considerably off-topic. I apologize to Hassein for hijacking his thread. Hopefully I have contributed to it more than I have distracted from it.

 

Best,

UFA

[Aeran]

Most of the above. Hermetic thought can rightly be traced back to ancient Egypt and Sumeria. The development of higher consciousness is marked by the evolution of the Sumerian myths. Alchemy likely had its origin in one of these regions as well. In the Am Duat can be found a familiar initiatory practice, still used today. And the roots of the Qabalah lie in Chaldean cosmology. 

 

As European civilization went on the decline, the Hermetic tradition found its new caretakers in the Muslim world. Its return west began as early as the ninth century through modern-day Spain, Italy and Germany. The modern (written) Qabalah was birthed in Southern France. Alchemical knowledge was likely channeled by the Sufis by way of the Templars (or those behind them).

 

That the tradition evolved over time is undoubted (and it still is evolving). However, it was transmitted from Adept to student in an unbroken chain. This claim may sound impossible to those on the outside but the training itself provides proof that this must be the case.

 

What I refer to as "true Hermeticism" bears several hallmarks. First, an inner practice which leads to spiritual illumination. Second, a spiritual transmission from an Adept... one cannot self-initiate. Third, a way of life which we would today decompose as magic, alchemy or mysticism, but which in reality is all of the above. Fourth, a scientific approach to inner and outer reality (the two being inseparable from one another).

 

As for Rosicrucianism, I think it is likely the Rosicrucians of the 17th century were part of this living tradition. I consider it to require a great stretch of the imagination to believe that today's neo-Rosicrucians still are.

 

Best,

UFA

 

I'm curious about why you feel that the alchemical knowledge was channeled? Plenty of texts on the subject went over to the Islamic world with the rest of the lot.

[FraterUFA]

I'm curious about why you feel that the alchemical knowledge was channeled? Plenty of texts on the subject went over to the Islamic world with the rest of the lot.

 

 

I don't mean the word "channeled" in the sense that spiritualists use it. I simply mean it passed to and through them.

[Aeran]

Fair enough.

[FieryWind]

According to my own esoteric studies there is a simpler way to understand this; We have the physical body which is the densest body we have, within this body we also have subtle bodies; mental-causal-astral, these bodies are protoplasmic, lunar in nature, meaning they were created by nature through mechanical means via the evolution of the consciousness through various forms of life/bodies through the different kingdoms/departments of nature; mineral-plant-animal.

 

After developing to a very high degree within the animal kingdom via more complex sophisticated bodies the consciousness is granted entry into a humanoid body, thus here we are now (although we have had many rounds within these bodies already). From this point spirituality comes into play if we choose to progress further beyond the humanoid state, we are still animals psychologically since we have come from that kingdom previously. So the next step up this "ladder" involves eliminating our animal nature and developing the true human nature instead.

 

The bodies we need to build are superior to the ones we already have, they are completely different and cannot be created mechanically by nature, they are consciously built. Therefore they are referred to as solar bodies (remember the ones we have are lunar because they are created by nature mechanically). To build the solar bodies is a great laborious work involving the sacred science of sexual alchemy (remember the old Alchemical tradition?) see below, male-female becoming one overcoming the dragon (ego).

 

 

Now if we choose not to purify ourselves and become true humans, then we can no longer evolve upwards into superior levels, the humanoid level is as far as nature can take us. So what happens is that we degenerate into inferior bodies on the devolving side of nature, ultimately we end up in the lower worlds known as hell, and go further into it to reach the second death which is where nature will eliminate the ego for us (with much pain) so that we can enter again into the evolving mineral kingdom and back up again to reach the humanoid state. This is the wheel of becoming (Samsara). This is what we need to overcome otherwise we will continue to suffer. 

Edited September 11, 2015 by FieryWind

[Hassein]

Hey guys a lot of answers, thanks you all!

Reading them I thought new questions that I'm goint to post soon.

A lot of ideas, many food for the mind.

 

However I think it is only a matter of words; looks like the astral body and world is something to be reached indirectly working correctly on ourselves, and not something to be directly worked on.

[FraterUFA]

Hi FieryWind,

 

Good post. A few comments:

 

According to my own esoteric studies there is a simpler way to understand this; We have the physical body which is the densest body we have, within this body we also have subtle bodies; mental-causal-astral, these bodies are protoplasmic, lunar in nature, meaning they were created by nature through mechanical means via the evolution of the consciousness through various forms of life/bodies through the different kingdoms/departments of nature; mineral-plant-animal.

 

You've touched upon something quite important here: the linkage between the traditional three kingdoms and these different veils of man. There are definite relationships between them which are exploited by the practice of lab ("outer") alchemy.

 

I had alluded to my own work with alchemical preps in the vegetable kingdom in conjunction with this thread. I discovered in the course of my work that alchemical products in this kingdom had a strong, immediate strengthening effect on the so-called astral body. In fact, I attribute my experiences along these lines not to any innate natural talent (of which I have little) but almost entirely to these preparations... "spiritual short-cuts" if you will, offered to man by the grace of God.

 

 

The bodies we need to build are superior to the ones we already have, they are completely different and cannot be created mechanically by nature, they are consciously built. Therefore they are referred to as solar bodies (remember the ones we have are lunar because they are created by nature mechanically). To build the solar bodies is a great laborious work involving the sacred science of sexual alchemy (remember the old Alchemical tradition?) see below, male-female becoming one overcoming the dragon (ego).

 

 

So based on your comments above, I am guessing you are approaching this from a neo-Gnostic perspective (your words are identical to the teachings of Samuel Aun Weor). I studied him for some time but grew to suspect from a number of inconsistencies and errors in his books that he was reinterpreting alchemy for his own purposes. I was able to confirm later that he knew virtually nothing about it. 

 

As it took me a considerable time to get to the bottom of this, I am going to offer some commentary about the diagram you posted.

 

First, this image is one of relatively few which depicts inner alchemical practices.

 

The dragon is not the "ego"... this is, in fact, an absurd teaching which directly contradicts Hermetic thought. I am aware of two similar, though not completely identical, interpretations of the dragon which were incorporated into the inner alchemical work.

 

The alchemists were heavily influenced by western (Christian) mystical teachings. For some of them, the dragon (or serpent) was the "lower spirit", a mechanism of nature whose purpose was to blind man and draw him into the world of "creatures" and "desires". 

 

To the more daring alchemists who adopted the philosophy and teachings of the Qabalah, this dragon was called "Nachash". Based on the clever arrangement of the symbolism, I am quite certain that whoever drew this was of this school. It is also quite obvious they had ties to the early speculative Freemason lodges. The Nachash can be considered in large part to be identical to the "lower spirit", but this latter hides the greatest secret of western occultism, one which allows for the rapid acceleration of man's evolution. The transmission of this secret through initiation is what constitutes the common thread in the hidden esoteric tradition. It is a thread which runs through the specualtive Freemason guilds prior to 1717, through the Qabalists, through the Alchemists, the Templars, the Sufis, and on and on, back to ancient Egypt.

 

As you can imagine, there were those in the Church who were adamantly opposed to such a teaching as it challenged their mystical hierarchy. In essence, if the cat were let out of the bag, anyone could achieve illumination and potentially undermine church doctrine. It is an inescapable conclusion to me that at least some of them knew that this teaching was legitimate and in fact, superior in its efficacy... but for the most part, they preferred their mystics to labor quietly for a lifetime and achieve illumination slowly, usually only in their declining years.

 

I think it is also reasonable that they recognized the inherent danger in this method and opposed it on the grounds that it could seriously endanger the life and sanity of many of those who attempted it. The church's methods were much safer in this regard.

 

Alchemy is dangerous... a high-risk, high-reward practice. Not merely in the physical sense (many alchemists have died from the preparations though), but moreso in the spiritual sense: premature evolution is brought about by a "hack" and most people can't handle it. 

 

This dragon, or Nachash, performs a great service: it instills in men a dysfunction that keeps him blinded to the higher divine consciousness. When the Nachash has rulership, it blinds men to its existence... or to those who have gone a bit farther, it blinds them to its true nature, sometimes through distractions like "astral travel".

 

Ironically, this secret is hidden here in plain sight: it is shown in this diagram but virtually nobody can see it. The average occultist will look at this diagram and if they are honest, will probably admit they can't see it. If they are inwardly dishonest, they will claim they see it and come up with some sort of twisted explanation for it (SAW's theory that it represented the ego is a good example). It is very easy for someone who knows the secret to determine who else knows it. That is, in fact, the motive behind the polarizing tone I take in my posts... and only one individual on this forum has seen through it.

 

Those of you who are Freemasons will have undoubtedly run into subtle and clever references to it in art, television and other media that most others miss. Similarly, those who have undergone the process I am describing will find the signs of this teaching in the most unlikely of places. This is an obvious depiction of it.

 

I can tell you from personal experience that this diagram has nothing to do with sexual alchemy. It is also not correct to say that it depicts overcoming of the ego. It is merely a clever diagram which portrays the attainment of Adepthood.

 

Best,

UFA

[noonespecial]

If Nachash rules Malkuth and Malkuth is Kether and Kether is Malkuth we are left with the identity of the Nachash as who? Likewise, "So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived." And, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up." I guess this is what all the mysteries boil down to.

[MooNiNite]

Reading some Gurdjieff and Ouspensky books, looks like the first remarkable step is bulding a new body, the Astral Body.

Is not a total immortal body, but it give the possibility to become conscious in another body and have some forms of control on the physical body.

 

Do you think is the Ghost Immortal Body (Gui Xian) in daoist paths?

Is it like a body of total yin?

Anyone attained this level here?

What are your experiences about it?

 

 

 

The Ghost Immortal Body in the Daoist path is a normal human being. Most people are already Ghost Immortals. 

[FieryWind]

That snake lifted up by Moses is the Kundalini raised up the central column (spine) symbolized by the staff/pole. The Alchemical knowledge was secret, hidden in former times so it was alluded to in heavy symbolism. However a clue is present, take note of the type of metal mentioned, "bronze/brass". This type of alloy is a composite of different metals, however its primarily composed of copper and tin which is masculine and the other, copper is feminine, copper(negative)-tin(positive).

 

To simplify it further; to raise the snake (Kundalini) within each one of us is only possible through the co-operation of a male-female couple, obviously in sexual union through a relationship/marriage based on an unadulterated love for one another. We are that laboratory depicted in many Alchemical art pieces. It's not literal, about getting base metals and combining them etc to get a rare, valuable type of metal.

 

 

If Nachash rules Malkuth and Malkuth is Kether and Kether is Malkuth we are left with the identity of the Nachash as who? Likewise, "So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived." And, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up." I guess this is what all the mysteries boil down to.

 

FraterUFA: Esoteric symbolism has many layers of meaning, therefore the best way to get information from them is via meditation practice, although understanding gained from study is a useful aid in the process. That way one does not rely solely on the writings of another but one becomes a competent investigator for him/herself. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by FieryWind

[Michael Sternbach]

Jung emphasized that there is a difference between signs and symbols. Signs have clearly defined meanings. An example being traffic signs; there is not too much leeway in their interpretation. Hopefully not! LOL.

 

Symbols are wider in scope and can at once pertain to different levels. Thus, an allegorical image in an Alchemical book can refer to both a process happening in the psyche of the practitioner as well as in his laboratory.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Aeran]

We are that laboratory depicted in many Alchemical art pieces. It's not literal, about getting base metals and combining them etc to get a rare, valuable type of metal.

 

Historically speaking, that isn't the case. Back to it's earliest days, alchemy has always had literal, physical components. It's only in in the 19th century the idea emerged that Alchemical texts were a metaphor for internal spiritual processes - and although it's a very apt metaphor, it's historically incorrect to purport that a metaphor is all it is. Whatever spiritual components Western alchemy had, it was always first and foremost an art involving the combination of physical ingredients within a laboratory.

[FieryWind]

Historically speaking, that isn't the case. Back to it's earliest days, alchemy has always had literal, physical components. It's only in in the 19th century the idea emerged that Alchemical texts were a metaphor for internal spiritual processes - and although it's a very apt metaphor, it's historically incorrect to purport that a metaphor is all it is. Whatever spiritual components Western alchemy had, it was always first and foremost an art involving the combination of physical ingredients within a laboratory.

Sure, there is definitely a literal branch to Alchemy. However my statement focuses on the spiritual meaning of art depicting Alchemy in its mystical form. I'm glad that you pointed this out because it's important to make this distinction.

Edited September 12, 2015 by FieryWind

[FraterUFA]

That snake lifted up by Moses is the Kundalini raised up the central column (spine) symbolized by the staff/pole. The Alchemical knowledge was secret, hidden in former times so it was alluded to in heavy symbolism. However a clue is present, take note of the type of metal mentioned, "bronze/brass". This type of alloy is a composite of different metals, however its primarily composed of copper and tin which is masculine and the other, copper is feminine, copper(negative)-tin(positive).

 

I remember my first Gnostic meeting. Young guy leading the group, very passionate about what he was preaching (and he was most definitely preaching). I remember how serious he was... no way he would crack a smile. Found out later he was pretty active on Amazon astroturfing Samuel Aun Weor's books and writing negative reviews about his detractors.

 

Anyway... the reason I attended this particular meeting is because it was on alchemy. At the time, I had studied the texts on and off for almost 20 years. I knew a little bit. Enough to know that there was a layer of complexity underneath the surface that was easy to overlook until you had made a thorough study of it. Things such as there being three mercuries, four sulphurs, what types of mercuries and sulphurs those were, etc. Not really understanding any of the inner meaning, just the surface.

 

I was impressed by his eloquence... at first. Until about halfway through when he began making some serious mistakes in regards to alchemical terminology. The same mistakes I later found which were scattered through the Gnostic books and lectures. This individual had no true understanding. He was just repeating what he had read (oops, I mean what SAW taught him on the inner plane, according to him).

 

Your comments here suggest you are firmly seated on the Gnostic tour bus, so I don't expect this can lead to any productive discussion (though I may suggest that a Google search for "samuel aun weor cult" will turn up some interesting reading). But for anyone else reading... there is no Kundalini signified or implied in alchemy or by the serpent. 

 

 

To simplify it further; to raise the snake (Kundalini) within each one of us is only possible through the co-operation of a male-female couple, obviously in sexual union through a relationship/marriage based on an unadulterated love for one another. We are that laboratory depicted in many Alchemical art pieces. It's not literal, about getting base metals and combining them etc to get a rare, valuable type of metal.

 

The symbolism of "metal" has both literal and metaphorical meanings. But it has nothing to do with sex practices.

 

 

This is the "go-to" alchemical diagram from the Gnostic crowd. That bed in the back does not refer to sexual practices, btw.

 

FraterUFA: Esoteric symbolism has many layers of meaning, therefore the best way to get information from them is via meditation practice, although understanding gained from study is a useful aid in the process. That way one does not rely solely on the writings of another but one becomes a competent investigator for him/herself. 

 

 

Best,

UFA

[FieryWind]

I have already trawled through such forums and discussions, not with an attitude against anything opposed to these teachings, but rather to see what people have to say as it's always interesting to hear what others have to say about something, for or against. To be perfectly honest with you, I didn't see anything to be alarmed about when it comes to the original teachings themselves.

 

Lets not forget that any group of people with a like-minded opinion of something can become a cult. Even a cult-watch group itself can, as strange as it may seem, turn into a cult. Is it then really that much of a surprise to discover that people turn Gnostic, Buddhist, Taoist, Chrisitan etc groups into cults?

 

I suggest that others decide for themselves what they feel is right. Don't simply take anyone's word for it (even a so called guru on the topic), do your own research and use your own intelligence to come to an understanding for yourself.

 

Your comments here suggest you are firmly seated on the Gnostic tour bus, so I don't expect this can lead to any productive discussion (though I may suggest that a Google search for "samuel aun weor cult" will turn up some interesting reading). But for anyone else reading... there is no Kundalini signified or implied in alchemy or by the serpent. 

[Hassein]

guys, we are off topic.

I think you should create another post to speak about your knowledge of western alchemy...

[Jetsun]

Its true that Gurdjieff said that we have to create another body, while we may have astral bodies already formed for the most part we are not conscious of them and just about everyone can't maintain consciousness in them after death, if we could then we would have memory of what happens in between lives and previous lives. Most of us go into forgetfulness of everything. So one feature of the new body is a stable unmoving attention which is strong enough to remain detached and unified enough even upon death.

[Hassein]

yep, I read the same thing.

The aim is to have another body where "insert" our consciousness.

Is not something theoretical but it's really a practical goal.

We are conscious only in our carnal body.

The next question is...how to be conscious in another body?
Continuous Self-remembering?
Sexual practices and abstinece?
None of all?

[kio]

I second the request for FraterUFA to start a new topic of discussion, defending the perspective that:

 

there is no Kundalini signified or implied in alchemy or by the serpent.

 

 

 

 

yep, I read the same thing.

The aim is to have another body where "insert" our consciousness.

Is not something theoretical but it's really a practical goal.

We are conscious only in our carnal body.

The next question is...how to be conscious in another body?
Continuous Self-remembering?
Sexual practices and abstinece?
None of all?

 

I have had the most success after abstaining from masturbation and sexual desire.  These are 'rooted' in the physical.  If the point is to 'create' a 'solar' body, then it follows that the energy of creation (sexual energy) should be sublimated to the place of spiritual/energetic vitality (solar plexus) in order to form the body.

 

After that, it seems to be a matter of visualizing what form the body takes.  This is the step in the process I'm at now.  Last time I noticed a significant moment in development, it felt as if my physical/etheric body had a thin layer of energy surrounding it that could be molded into different shapes.  During this moment, I played with different designs for my body -- one was a version of myself as a warrior, one was my favorite anime character (Naruto Uzumaki ), and the other was a mountain lion.

Edited September 13, 2015 by kio

[FraterUFA]

 

I second the request for FraterUFA to start a new topic of discussion, defending the perspective that:

 

FraterUFA, on 12 Sept 2015 - 16:17, said:

there is no Kundalini signified or implied in alchemy or by the serpent.

 

The default view does not need to be defended. The connection between alchemy and kundalini is 100% fabricated and has no evidence to support it. I've said enough to put anyone interested on the right track, so I will limit all future replies in this thread to on-topic discussion.

 

Best,

UFA 

[FieryWind]

I second the request for FraterUFA to start a new topic of discussion, defending the perspective that:

 

 

 

 

I have had the most success after abstaining from masturbation and sexual desire.  These are 'rooted' in the physical.  If the point is to 'create' a 'solar' body, then it follows that the energy of creation (sexual energy) should be sublimated to the place of spiritual/energetic vitality (solar plexus) in order to form the body.

 

After that, it seems to be a matter of visualizing what form the body takes.  This is the step in the process I'm at now.  Last time I noticed a significant moment in development, it felt as if my physical/etheric body had a thin layer of energy surrounding it that could be molded into different shapes.  During this moment, I played with different designs for my body -- one was a version of myself as a warrior, one was my favorite anime character (Naruto Uzumaki ), and the other was a mountain lion.

 

You have made a powerful discovery in relation to the sexual energy and its power. When it's wasted then obviously a great deal of energy goes along with it. Since sexual energy (obviously with the physical counterpart) creates physical bodies then it makes logical sense that the sexual energy has an important role in the development of the solar vehicles, bodies.

 

However just as you need a partner of the opposite sex to create children, you also need such a partner to elaborate those solar bodies. Since it's a conscious act with intelligence guiding the whole process, it needs to be accompanied by certain qualities such as love and to develop love you need to work hard in maintaining ethics, meditating on your defects etc.

 

So this whole process of elaborating the solar bodies (astral is just one of these bodies) is a conscious effort, not a mechanical one since the higher levels of existence are conscious levels. Mechanical creatures have only mechanical bodies belonging to mechanical nature, so for example we only possess the inferior "lower" mechanical astral body.