Man Love

[sean]

Great post Craig.

 

I am tripping out on some concentric circles in my mind here but have no real clue how they all intersect:

 

The biology of gender: male-hermaphroditic-female

The polarities of yin-yuan-yang

The tendency of your sexual preference: heterosexual-bisexual-homosexual

 

I'm just going to throw some open ended questions and statement out here, freestyle.

 

What is the relationship between yang and the biology of manhood? Are they inextricably linked?

 

Is it possible that the proper balance of yin and yang is relatively unique for each individual? So much so that one man's yang is another man's yin?

 

Is it possible that while yang seems to flow more naturally and with more intensity through biological men, in certain cases yin might actually flow more naturally? So that, when everything artificial is dropped, certain men will find that their true essence turns out to be very much yin?

 

Looking at romantic heterosexual relationships, I have noticed that there is typically a more submissive and more dominant partner. Unfortunately this pattern often conforms to expected gender roles, even if the man is not actually the better leader. Causes a lot of problems. Arguably the man should "step up to the plate" and be a man. But back to previous question, is it possible he is yin and should be the submissive?

 

Now I've also hung out with a lot of gay couples throughout my life, and I've noticed the same polarities. There is usually a pretty obvious submissive and a dominant in their relationships as well. Funny enough, I am tempted to suspect that in homosexual relationships this submissive-dominant (yin-yang?) pattern emerges even more naturally since it's based much more on the energetics and not expected gender roles.

 

This all raises the very real possibility that sexual preference has nothing to do with our polarity. Theoretically a man could have yin essence, be very attracted to women, and very happily submit to the leadership of a strong yang women. And another very yang man might be attracted to and build a successful relationship with a yin-essenced men.

 

Does this make it possible for male on male sex to actually be a balanced yin and yang?

Does this open up the strange possibility that male on female sex can actually be imbalanced yang on yang?

 

 

What is the relationship between our yin-yuan-yang essence and our sexual preference?

 

 

Humbly,

Sean

[Cameron]

Sean,

 

Your beating around the bush.

 

Let's be direct.

 

Both Pietro and Craig have basically alluded to anal sex not being something men are supposed to be doing.

 

Obviously energetically speaking it's a non issue. Heck..even Mantra..who has the energy of like a rock star..said with Kunlun you just get whatever energy you need.

 

But that doesn't mean sex as it is practiced by male homosexuals is in harmony with Tao.

 

Again, I have no idea..just started this thread since there seems to be a huge taboo around this and better to just express what we think and feel.

 

I am guessing from what Pietro and Craig mentioned anal sex with woman is totally fine?

[林愛偉]

We have had many gay people in our seminars. Some would seem to have an advantage because they allow more of their feminine side to flow and Kunlun is all about the feminine energy.

 

It really comes down to reconciling the male/female within and finding the balance. This is why Taoist men grew their hair long: to help balance their female nature. Women monks shave their heads to balance male.

 

 

 

I have never met a Daoist Nun who shaved her head. (bald smiley)

 

I know Chang Yi Xiang Tianshi ( Heavenly Master Lily Siu) Requests her disciples to shave their heads once before discipleship to show their detaching from personal discrimination, and also because long hair can become a distraction during cultivation.

Men keep their hair long as a sign of a mature individual, proper and virtuous, upholding skill and wisdom. Of course its a symbol of covering, or keeping things stable in a sense. But it doesn't have to do with looking feminine in order to keep a feminine balance.

Daoists in the past were chinese, and chinese features were similar for both men and women. A women can wear men's clothing and people would think she was a man.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

P.S.- This thread should end soon before it helps others develop further confusion.

 

what about Lan Caihe? one of the eight immortals, looks quite gay to me...

 

Not gay.

[sean]

Both Pietro and Craig have basically alluded to anal sex not being something men are supposed to be doing.

Pietro actually said that anal sex with a women wearing a dildo penetrating you is considered acceptable by BK Frantzis because it is still yin-yang. My understanding is that Osho, who also taught against male-male sex, has said the same thing.

 

But what if the essential nature of a woman penetrating a yang-man was also yang?

 

It seems the real issue is with energetics, not biology.

 

So my question remains.

 

Can anyone say with absolute confidence that a man always and should have a yang polarity to their nature and women always and should have a yin polarity to their nature?

 

Honest question, I certainly don't know the answer.

 

Sean

[liminal_luke]

There was never a homosexual Daoist Immortal, and an Immortal would not be an Immortal if they were...hahaha

 

Lin

 

To be VERY technical what is not ok in male to male homosexuality is butt fucking. That is what harms the energetic system.

 

We also asked what was exactly that happened when man have sex with other men. We were told that something in the energetic structure change (I understood something that has to do with compassion) so that IF that man become politically powerful he could cause the death of many million people. Taoists have observed this pattern recuring over the centuries, so now they don't teach to male homosexual... just in case.

 

 

"It was a sad day when Liminal_Luke discovered he would never be immortal. Why, oh why, had he fucked so many butts? Fortunately, destroying the world was still a possibility."

[Yoda]

Fortunately, destroying the world was still a possibility.

 

 

 

Between the two populations, gays have more fun and that tells me which group is closer to the truth.

[林愛偉]

Pietro actually said that anal sex with a women wearing a dildo penetrating you is considered acceptable by BK Frantzis because it is still yin-yang. My understanding is that Osho, who also taught against male-male sex, has said the same thing.

 

But what if the essential nature of a woman penetrating a yang-man was also yang?

 

It seems the real issue is with energetics, not biology.

 

So my question remains.

 

Can anyone say with absolute confidence that a man always and should have a yang polarity to their nature and women always and should have a yin polarity to their nature?

 

Honest question, I certainly don't know the answer.

 

Sean

 

 

Anal sex in any form with anyone is not proper at all for one's health, and cultivation.

It causes leakages in one's essence, directly out of the kidneys.

For men having anal sex, it is adding toxic energy to their system like plugging into an electrical outlet.

 

Enjoy.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited October 27, 2007 by 林愛偉

[sean]

Between the two populations, gays have more fun and that tells me which group is closer to the truth.

Just watch what happens when gays start to thrive in any community. Good restaurants start popping up, better movie theaters, interesting little art galleries, dance performances, great indie bands, the coolest bars and clubs, a thriving and playful nightlife in the floating world starts to form.

 

Straight people have dropped the ball on art and fun people, let's face it.

 

 

Sean

[Sunya]

Just watch what happens when gays start to thrive in any community. Good restaurants start popping up, better movie theaters, interesting little art galleries, dance performances, great indie bands, the coolest bars and clubs, a thriving and playful nightlife in the floating world starts to form.

 

Straight people have dropped the ball on art and fun people, let's face it.

 

 

Sean

 

you have a point.

i believe gay people to be very much more in touch with the feminine Yin aspect than most straight people.

[agharta]

I used to crave anal sex with women majorly. Then, I had a girlfriend who let me bang her butt every day. I am so grateful. I actually got over my craving!

[Eric23]

And now for the $64K question all male bums are afraid to ask.... Where does the Aneros fit in? edit... I know where it goes!! Meant to inquire is it considered analsex?

Edited October 27, 2007 by Eric23

[Mantra68]

"It was a sad day when Liminal_Luke discovered he would never be immortal. Why, oh why, had he fucked so many butts? Fortunately, destroying the world was still a possibility."

This is super funny.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Falun Dafa leader Li Hongzhi doesn't appear to be a big fan of homosexuals either:

 

The World's Ten Evils

 

Humans without kind thoughts

Human against human as enemy.

 

Destroying traditions

Culture turning decadent.

 

Homosexuality, licentious desires

Dark heart, turning demonic.

 

Gambling popular, drugs popular

Following whims and desires.

 

Lifting restrictions, promiscuity

Leading to evil and wickedness.

 

Sinister gangs, treacherous factions

Politicians and bandits, all one family.

 

Acting on one's own decisions, deranging the masses

Against heaven, betraying Dao.

 

Blindly believing in science

Mutant mankind.

 

Publicizing and revering violence

Fond of audaciousness, competing at ruthlessness.

 

Religions turned evil

Money seekers, politicians.

 

http://falundafa.org/book/eng/HongYinVB.htm#_Toc110877587

[Pietro]

"It was a sad day when Liminal_Luke discovered he would never be immortal. Why, oh why, had he fucked so many butts? Fortunately, destroying the world was still a possibility."

 

1) I am not saying what I believe, because I have no experience in the field, so I am simply repeating what Bruce said.

 

What Bruce said is not that it is not possible for a gay to become immortal. He didn't even say that it was impossible. The question was simply never asked. Nor is the water method so much focused on immortality. The aim is more in trying to become a human being, and this is considered quite an achievement already.

 

He did say that the energetic structure gets damaged,

and that IF the person gets political power he is a danger for others.

 

Full stop, do not add your own fears, interpretation, problems, taboo, to that.

And if you do, don't get me in.

 

Also note, a lot of things damage the energetic structure, porn, lying, breaking your word, consciously harming someone, excessive discussion on the tao bum , Smile would add "eating meat". And of course the age old classics: killing, raping and torturing.

Do they damage it more, less, is one not possible to heal and the other yes?

For example I know he has no vow to teach people who did quite terrible things. And since he was in China after the revolution he had to help people from both side of the torture table. Yet he has no vow stopping him to help a torturer. Why so?

Is his vow stopping him from teaching anyone who is gay now, or someone who have had omosexual experiences? What if someone was raped? Can he not practice? In short there are a lot of obscure parts in all this. Keep them obscure, keep guessing, admit what you don't know. But do not assume that is one or the other. If it is important go to a meeting with him and ask.

 

Also Cameron, in the other thread you asked about sex with animals. According to what we are told there are only 4 things that are absolute taboo for taoists. To those you add your personal. The things that are permitted, but you just don't feel like doing.

 

The 4 taboos are:

1) alive people and dead people: No!

2) human beings and animals: No!

3) adults with kids: No!

4) men and men: No!

 

Those are the four, and for what I know he only has a vow concerning one. Probably the other being considered rare enough not to require a vow.

 

In any case everything else is ok.

Nothing about fidelity.

Nothing about married people.

Nothing about orgies.

And nothing about incest(!).

 

Those are quite weird. I remember he (he being Bruce, of course) telling us that respect to taoist moral standards, the osho community is a bunch of right wing conservatories.

 

I did ask about anal sex, because is something I like, and I was told that historically is was not practiced much simply because of hygenical reasons.

 

Yet I like 林愛偉 explenation of what is going on. I mean, the more a woman is feminine the more I want to fuck her on the back. And generally the more a woman have anal sex, the less feminine I feel her. It might very well be that the reason of all this desire is that I feel I lack yin energy, and I feel that is a very direct way of getting it. it could be a form of vampirising

 

And of course in the topic (come er cacio sui maccheroni) goes the lao tzu-chuang tzu dialectic. The dialectic between right hand taoists, and left hand taoists. With the right hand being the one who are naturally celibate, and the left hand the one who are naturally poligamous or naturally orgiastic.

 

And on this, really, to each his own.

[林愛偉]

 

... it could be a form of vampirising...

 

 

 

It is stealing one's energy for one's own satisfaction.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

[Yoda]

Just watch what happens when gays start to thrive in any community. Good restaurants start popping up, better movie theaters, interesting little art galleries, dance performances, great indie bands, the coolest bars and clubs, a thriving and playful nightlife in the floating world starts to form.

 

Straight people have dropped the ball on art and fun people, let's face it.

 

The energetic difference between a straight dance club and a gay dance club is like night and day.

[Mandrake]

Between the two populations, gays have more fun and that tells me which group is closer to the truth.

 

 

Hehe, between the two populations, I've never seen more pain, angst, intrigues and loneliness either. What this has to do with truth I don't know. Some friends of mine have ton's more fun than I when they are on dope or similar interesting stuff. Truth? Naaah, especially considering they don't flaunt the darker side.

 

Note: Nothing personal

 

M

[rain]

you have a point.

i believe gay people to be very much more in touch with the feminine Yin aspect than most straight people.

 

 

than most straight men.

[voidisyinyang]

OK this is an interesting thread. Basically Master Chunyi Lin told our class (or me -- sometimes it's hard to tell) -- that until the second chakra was opened up then the same sex would be attracted to me. Now when he told me this I had already had problems with getting hit on by males -- which revolted me because it was usually done in a very underhanded manner with bad intentions. Let's face it: Modern males can not control the lower half of their bodies and for this reason are really not much different than other primates.

 

I pondered what Master Chunyi Lin meant about "2nd chakra" since that's not a term he usually uses for qigong but then I realized he meant converting the generative force (or electrochemical energy) into vitality (or electromagnetic energy).

 

"In Search of the Miraculous" -- Gurdjieff's teaching -- is also very good on this -- talking about "Level One" and "Level Two" people.

 

Anyway it's not like I was getting hit on just by the same sex as me but also by females, girls, and I would even say animals -- haha.

 

Regardless -- it's basically a real struggle -- because, and I hate to say this, but PERVERTS will try to suck off the electrochemical energy.

 

Or as Gurdjieff states -- most males are Level One or Level Two (controlled by their sex energy). A level One person is someone who burns off their sex energy so fast that their consciousness is then focused on their

 

tailbone -- sacrum energy center.

 

And from this we can see the anal fixation.

 

Master Chunyi Lin is just as kind and open and respectful about differences in sexual orientation but I do think it's fascinating that for 90% of human history

 

the Bushmen Culture of Africa

 

there were NO GAYS.

 

Of course people won't believe this -- they'll say it must have just been hidden. But guess what -- 90% of the males became energy healers and nothing was hidden in that culture.

 

First of all the males had to live with the families of their wife-to-be and there was basically no privacy.

 

Now the fact is that we live in an ecological crisis and materialistic culture promotes two things as an increasing trend: animalistic sex and destructive technology.

 

Both of these things are based on the left-brain repression of our emotions which are then projected as unconscious behaviors (one of which is homosexuality).

 

Formless awareness (emptiness) or pure consciousness is FEMALE -- this is because the free energy works by complimentary opposites, in contrast to Western science which is based on symmetry (and patriarchy).

 

Most of Nature does not need males. This is why the Female Formless Awareness can self-generate whereas the male form is a materialistic growth out of the female.

 

When the male learns to connect with the female self this means that the emotions are no longer repressed and true love can be achieved.

 

So it's not that homosexuality is the problem -- all of modern civilization (left-brain dominant thinking) is the problem. Phonetic langauage, western math, etc. --- it's all philosophically false.

 

Homosexuality is just the natural progression of late capitalist society.

 

A lot of modern males can not control their attraction to other males -- even though they don't consider themselves homosexual.

 

Again this is a byproduct of ELECTROCHEMICAL or generative force dynamics.

 

It's just like in Tantra -- the physical sex is just a beginner stage that must be done with total detachment if it will enable creation of CHI or electromagnetic energy.

 

There's nothing worse than the sensation of a man trying to suck me off with their desire -- because with a female their attraction is not down but UP.

 

The female orgasm is internal -- through the vagus nerve going up to the right brain (as it should be for qigong practicers as well -- males!!).

 

I can sense the energy level of people's messages on the internet and when a male's consciousness is focused on his lower chakras then inevitably that person is very reactionary and close-minded.

 

It's obviously not part of the practice to have anger because the transformation comes from the formless awareness but it's the

 

FULL-LOTUS that transforms the electrochemical blockages (be it anger in the liver or whatever).

 

This is easier if no food has been eaten because then the energy channels are more clear.

 

This is a serious issue for me -- my aura is affected by my housemates and one person makes such behavior in our house.

 

The formless awareness is beyond these dualities so it's just an issue of extra energy that needs to be harmonized through the full-lotus.

 

The greater the electromagnetic force, the deeper the level of harmony achieved and the more sensitive the practicer is to disharmony.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin discusses this in his books -- he states that in modern society it's probably better not to practice because the energy is so bad.

 

He even states that the existence of humanity as a whole is a conundrum.

 

But that's part of the paradoxes of formless awareness -- the practice occurs because it's the logical truth.

 

So the more one learns to transform the energy blockages, the more one has to practice and it becomes a feedback process.

 

Another misnomer is that to be celibate is to not have climaxes but rather it's just an internal climax.

 

Yet the real issue becomes the "scattering of the vitality" -- as the electrochemical energy goes up to the third eye and turns into electromagnetic energy it is then shot out of the third eye -- into YIN sources.

 

The upper half of the body is YANG so then it's attracted to YIN -- but if a MALE's consciousness is focused in the lower half of their body that means they have MORE YIN then yang.

 

For modern, "straight," males this yin focus is unconscious and then projected as oppressive technology to create more iron-based, meat food as an artificial source of yang energy.

 

But since all energy comes from formless awareness this yang source of food is not necessary.

 

So the issue of homosexuality has to been considered in a much greater context and it's solved by the full-lotus.

 

Whenever anyone takes energy from me then the full-lotus brings more energy in -- but if the energy is taken at night -- by my housemates -- through activating my aura while I'm asleep -- then I if I don't sit in full-lotus the vitality (electromagnetic) energy pill is converted back into

 

seminal fluid

 

that deconverts the healing powers.

 

In fact even straight males are afraid of this extra healing energy because they don't know what to do with it. So again straight males subconsciously have their consciousness focused in the lower half of their body (unless their minds are particularly focused).

 

So if the yang energy in my third eye shoots energy out into straight males the straight males start getting horny and they don't know why and they, of course, don't know what to do with the extra energy since they don't understand alchemy.

 

So then that extra energy just turns back into seminal fluid for them. But maybe they use it to make someone happy! (besides themselves).

 

haha.

 

I haven't gotten past this stage. I used to have my second chakra open but then I had even stronger reactions to my energy because my aura had strong electromagnetic fields (instead now it's mainly electrochemical fields).

 

I'm always toying with this transistion -- so part of the day the electromagnetic fields will be stronger, etc.

 

Of course ideally you're supposed to only sublimate the generative force after 11 pm -- when the governing channel (the back) opens up through the circadian rhythm -- and then again before 1 pm the following day.

 

After 1 pm it's stated that any attempt at someone taking your energy (or you having thoughts about desire) should be turned back, using "quick fire" -- breathing to raise the electrochemical energy so that it goes up to the solar plexus, unites with the electromagnetic energy, and then that stops the generative force from being turned into a fluid.

 

Instead I just use the pressure of the full-lotus because again I found that people craved this love energy so badly -- I had to be on the defensive all the time.

 

So I decided that the best defense is a good offense. Preemptive qigong healing.

Edited October 28, 2007 by drew hempel

[Cameron]

I actually am grateful now that I spent the last 5 years working in my family business because I got to have alot of direct contact with homosexual men(My family is in the flooring/design business)

 

Part of this exposure has helped me see each individual as a unique human being rather than just a "sex object".

 

For example..yes, I have been hit on by men and it was never really a problem. If you have a sense of humor and can laugh about it it's not that bad.

 

That said..any serious..uncomfortable advances would be met with a sound ass kicking..and I can do that without causing much if any damage(no lawsuits!)

 

However, the reality is..pretty much every single gay man I have known has been more or less an upright person. When they see your not into it they drop it.

 

But then you hear these stories like that guy with Michael Winn in Ashevelle who was brutally raped and your like..holy shit...for some guys it's actually not that different than some woman who gets raped on a college campus somewhere.

 

fucked up!

[liminal_luke]

 

 

But then you hear these stories like that guy with Michael Winn in Ashevelle who was brutally raped and your like..holy shit...for some guys it's actually not that different than some woman who gets raped on a college campus somewhere.

 

fucked up!

 

While there certainly is a lot to like about the whole gay sex thing, I'd hardly go so far as to say that man-on-man action prevents rape, or the twisted attitudes that take some guys in that direction. Were that true, prison recidivism rates would plummet. So yes, a small minority of gay dudes are rapists. We also count among our ranks a few murderers (as correctly noted by one of Pietro's teachers), a whole bunch of plain ole unhappy folks (nice call, Mandrake), but very few immortals (point well taken, Lin). Fortunately, this sad state of affairs hasn't stopped many of us from having fun on a Saturday night, or opening up trendy restaurants and art galleries, as charitably pointed out by Yoda and Sean respectively.

 

I'm not going to oversimplify with the whole "we are just like straights except for what we do in bed" saw, but let me put it this way--nobody whose ever been to my place has called the next day for decorating tips. Gay or straight, we are people first.

 

The relationship between sexuality and spirituality is complex, full of possibilities and pitfalls for everybody. But this much I know: gay people are every bit as capable of spiritual development as our straight brothers.

[Cameron]

Luke,

 

I feel you have represented people of your lifestlye in a very high way on this thread. And that's all it is..a lifestlye choice...not another ego identity trap.

 

Best,

 

Cameron

[Sunya]

upper body is yang and lower body is yin? are you sure?

i thought it would be the other way around

[liminal_luke]

Luke,

 

I feel you have represented people of your lifestlye in a very high way on this thread. And that's all it is..a lifestlye choice...not another ego identity trap.

 

Best,

 

Cameron

 

I've tried to write in a humorous, pointed, perhaps slightly detached style. Frankly, this seemed the best way to approach what to me is quite a loaded topic. But perhaps in doing so, I've come off as a little egoistic. So I'll try to speak from the heart.

 

I'm quite surprised to discover that I care as much as I do what everybody thinks of me. Thought I had put more of my own homophobia behind me, but clearly I have more work to do. All my life, I've been told that I can't be spiritual as a gay guy. Attending a rural US high school in the 80's, I certainly picked up on the strong anti-gay Christian vibe of the people around me. In college I embraced my Jewish roots, and studied Torah for a year in Israel. Eventually though I figured out that I would never be able to make my Jewish sensibilities mesh with being gay in a satisfying way, so one day I took off my kipah (skullcap) and had a cheesy hot dog on the street, my first non-kosher meal in several years.

 

Lately of course, I've been exploring taoist cultivation. And up until this moment I have not encountered any of this anti-gay sentiment among the taoist community. Now I'm realizing that the taobums is no refuge from this kind of thing. Of course I know that some people just don't have a clue. I wish I could just ignore them and move on. But in the place I'm in right now it hurts.

 

I don't think being gay is a "lifestyle choice" Cameron. That's just not the way I've experienced it. I could no more easily stop myself from being attracted to guys, then you could stop yourself from being attracted to women. Maybe somebody out there just woke up one morning and "decided" to be gay, but it wasn't me. Of course celibacy is always an option--that would be a "lifestyle choice"-- but not having sex wouldn't make me straight, I'd just be a celibate gay guy.

 

Like many of us taobums, spirituality is very important to me. It has been all my life. And yes, I like guys. I've been struggling for years now to find a place where I can feel whole, where both my spiritual yearnings and sexual self can be accepted.

 

Don't get me wrong. These days I'm very happy being gay. If someone offered me a pill that could make me straight I wouldn't take it. In fact, I do think there are some advantages to being gay when it comes to spiritual cultivation. But I didn't get to this place overnight. It's been a long road to get to a place of feeling as good about me as I do, and while I'm certainly well on my way the journey isn't over yet. So if I something in my previous postings struck anybody as a little sharp, or egoistic, or "high" or whatever, just know that I come at this whole topic not in an abstract theoretical way but with baggage firmly in tow.

Edited October 28, 2007 by liminal_luke

[Cameron]

I am sorry..didn't mean to imply you have a choice.

 

I just meant in the "bigger picture" being gay isn't all that big a deal.

 

I am speaking from the perspective of what I picked up from my Zen teachers..who are all very accepting of people lifestlye(just lifestlye not lifestlye choice..ok )

 

But from the persective of awakening..isn't all this business about "I am gay" or "I am straight" or "I am bisexual" or "I am celibate" just more "stuff"?

 

Sorry that you were hurt..but my feeling is it is better for people to bring this stuff to the table..and maybe actually have some authentic heart to heart diologue.