Man Love

[liminal_luke]

 

 

I just meant in the "bigger picture" being gay isn't all that big a deal.

 

 

 

whew...yes....agreed...in the "bigger picture" it's no big deal at all

 

Ok, Cameron....I think I'm going to take a leaf from your book. No more posts from me for the next month! hehehe....

 

It's all good,

 

Luke

Edited October 28, 2007 by liminal_luke

[三江源]

A sifu I worked with who gave powerful transmission told me that when he works with gay men, as their energy aligns and balances they enter great turmoil as they feel their attraction to men slipping away, and this is very challenging to their self concepts. they have to decide to continue the work and become non - gay, or stop, and preserve their previous energy pattern.

[Pietro]

...

And from this we can see the anal fixation.

 

Master Chunyi Lin is just as kind and open and respectful about differences in sexual orientation but I do think it's fascinating that for 90% of human history

 

the Bushmen Culture of Africa

 

there were NO GAYS.

...

 

 

How very interesting.

Can you give me a reference for this so I can explore the topic further.

I have an incredible attraction for the bushman culture/way of living.

 

Up to the point that I have often considered if it was possible to invent some sort of "holiday resort" (I know it makes you cringe the simple idea, but I can't think of anything else which is also feasible). That is a place where people would go there, live naked, live EXACTLY like the bush man. Maybe asking the bushman to teach them/us.

Right now the problem with the bushman is that their culture is evolving, while the law protects them but not the culture. If you are a bushman you are allowed to hunt in a huge area. An area where normally people are not allowed to go as is a Botswana national park. There are all sort of problems already with this situation, because the area have diamonds, so there is all sort of lobbies that are trying to force the Bushman in camps, "for their own good".

 

But then there is another point, and that is: it is ok, for the bushman to go hunting if they do it with the traditional weapons. But now they are using rifles. And this will eventually unbalance the ecosystem.

 

So my idea is that the protection should not be with the bushman, but with their way of life. And anyone who wanted to live like that could do it. They had to learn, they were not allowed to bring anything a bushman would not have, and they could stay there for as long as they wish.

 

 

I don't think being gay is a "lifestyle choice" Cameron. That's just not the way I've experienced it. I could no more easily stop myself from being attracted to guys, then you could stop yourself from being attracted to women.

Hello Luke, I think there are plenty of scientific results out there on how homosexuality is nearly always not coming from education. For example the hormonal bath in which the fetus is grown seems very important. But the composition of that "bath" depends on many factors, some that are not genetic, and still are not from education. For example if the fetus have female twins (the only I can think right now, but I am sure there are others).

 

Also there is a population in an island in the pacific (the reference is for "Guardians of the Flute" - Amazon), where every boy gets to give oral sex to older boys, drink their semen to make the magic of become real men happen. When the older boy becomes a man and get married he stops that practice, and when the younger boy becomes older (after puberty) he starts with the younger ones of his tribe.

So here you have a tribe of people who all have had homosexual experience for many times during many years. And then eventually they stopped.

Some people would claim that after such beginning those boys would all grow up homosexual. Well, according to this anthropological report the percentage of homosexual among the adult community is the same as in other cultures. Showing that even such environment is not conducive toward homosexuality.

[Yoda]

Liminal Luke,

 

I think that teachers like Lama Max who see being gay as a positive thing are more the exception than the rule and I admire his courage and insight to be able to pluck the fly out of the ointment.

 

Esther says that there are a growing number of spirits who absolutely refuse to fit in with the constrictive ideals active on this planet. These spirits will go so far as to be born physically different in some way so that it would be absolutely impossible for their parents, society, etc to change their minds and to fit them into the system. She says that being gay is one way of achieving this. Such souls are powerful bodhisattvas who are willing to put up with more hardships and confusions in order to transmute and uplift the energy on the planet for every one's benefit.

 

Just don't expect a thank you note!!

 

I'd treat this thread just like every other thread on taobums... we all have different beliefs and we all follow our own hearts... just the way the Great Webmaster intended it.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[voidisyinyang]

Well if you listen to Master Chunyi Lin's latest radio interview -- for free -- at the "in the news" section of http://springforestqigong.com this is what he states. I had first heard this simple explanation of body energy in the last video of Master John Chang -- the first reason I found taobums.com. That video is found at http://mind-energy.net where I also have several qigong articles.

 

I was reading "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" last night to investigate this very issue.

 

That book is actually very complicated and I find it a very rewarding source for practice.

 

Basically it states that the heart spirit-vitality is yang and this yang energy is expressed through the eyes during the day -- while the rest of the body is yin.

 

So you bring the yang spirit-vitality down to the lower abdomen and through the combination of the yin in the lower abdomen (the life-vitality or generative force) with the spirit vitality from the heart the alchemical agent is created.

 

But if these two are not combined then the spirit-vitality scatters and the life-vitality turns into leaking fluid and therefore the inherent vitality or QI in both is lost.

 

This is the fundamental principle of qigong -- when these two meet (yang-heart and yin-life) then the original spirit is seen -- the formless awareness.

 

We are made aware of the formless awareness through the light that is created from the yang spirit vitality.

 

The yang spirit-vitality can also create another physical body but to do so it must combine with the yin-life vitality.

 

For further Bushmen sources you can read my "The Biomusic Conspiracy" article at http://www.mondovista.com/rainbow.html

 

Dr. Elizabeth Marshall Thomas' book "The Harmless People"

 

or "Women Like Meat" by Professor Megan Biesele http://www.amazon.com/Women-Like-Meat-Folk...7234&sr=1-1

 

or the essay "Healing and Transformation" by Dr. Richard Katz in the book "Therapeutic Aspects of Altered States of Consciousness" are three excellent sources for Bushmen healing secrets -- it's the same as qigong.

Edited October 28, 2007 by drew hempel

[SFJane]

There was never a homosexual Daoist Immortal, and an Immortal would not be an Immortal if they were...hahaha

Mixing those energies does damage to one's cultivation, and results in ill karmic afflictions as well.

 

 

 

 

What a judgmental, out of date, superstitious, ill- founded, incorrect fantasy. This topic is not offensive, but this mind set is.

 

Anyone that wants to know how same sex energy practices are done correctly and without physical or karmic repercussion, pm me anytime.

 

In fact, I will go one step further. I dislike this mindset so much that when I start publicly teaching, I want it known that anyone in the glbt spectrum is more than welcome to learn taoist internals from me.

 

damage to one's cultivation and karma

 

does anyone actually and truly buy this at face value without actually experimenting for one's own edification?

 

Well, I have and I have never ever been in a better place spiritually, emotionally, mentally or physically in 33 years of being alive.

 

Just because they were masters, does not mean they are always right. Masters can be biased, bigoted, ignorant, provincial and wrong!

 

 

 

San Francisco Jane

Edited October 28, 2007 by SFJane

[SFJane]

I'll be technical.. According to what we are taugh. Male to male homosexuality is not ok. Female to female is ok and is called polishing mirrors. It actually increases the yin.

 

To be VERY technical what is not ok in male to male homosexuality is butt fucking. That is what harms the energetic system.

 

And yes, we did ask to Bruce if it was ok for a women to butt fuck a man using a Dildo (that was the first question from many of the more masculine ladies, hemm). Yes, that's fine, because although she is the one with the dildo, energetically she is still the yin side.

 

We were also told that there is a group of male homosexual in china, but they keep to themselves and (as we were told), write "weird things indeed".

 

I know Bruce has only one vow, and that is that he is not allowed to teach to a male homosexual, that living near S.Francisco must be quite an effort.

 

We also asked what was exactly that happened when man have sex with other men. We were told that something in the energetic structure change (I understood something that has to do with compassion) so that IF that man become politically powerful he could cause the death of many million people. Taoists have observed this pattern recuring over the centuries, so now they don't teach to male homosexual... just in case.

 

And I think Bruce had to go through, with his teacher, the whole history of China, and how this person caused those deaths, and that person caused those other, and so on.

 

As such, if you intend to learn from Bruce and you have had homosexual experiences, he, being in the modern world, practically follows a philosophy of don't ask-don't tell. So just shut up or he would be forced to throw you out of the class or stop teaching (forever?).

 

 

 

 

I attended the first Water Method retreat with BKF in California after Relaxing Into Your Being.

 

I have bee practicing Taoist cultivating for well over a decade. Ever since I started taking energy arts classes, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Nei Gung, whatever, I gave myself over to the philosophy and path of the Water Method.

 

These questions were all asked of BKF when I was there. Bear in mind, I have only the highest regard for all of BKF's stuff and am a *devotee* of his teachings, but I disagree with the Big Master.

 

BKF is safely ensconced in heterosexuality. His master has been dead for some time and he had a chance to break course instead of toe the line. I have heard this *polishing the mirror* and how it's ok for girls to play with each other, but not guys. Well in ten years of practicing BKF's stuff, this is where I part ways.

 

I am a freak. People's chromosomes mean very little to me. I have done tantra with men, women, and male to female transsexuals, and female to male transsexuals. I have had sex with just about every kind of deviant, genital configuration or hormone variation under the sun. I have even played with someone with Kleinfelter's

 

I know things about practicing taoist sexual work that BKF only theorizes about.

Edited October 28, 2007 by SFJane

[voidisyinyang]

I should add that when the yang spirit-vitality works to make a new physical body and must do so by combining with yin life-vitality the spirit is still yin (which means it can not be seen by others). So the yin spirit if the right eye as Moon Energy while the yang spirit (physical body) is the left eye as Sun Energy. So when the yin spirit (the white light) combines with the yang spirit (the gold light) then a new physical body is created. If the spirit has no vitality when the physical body dies then we just become ghosts.

[doc benway]

Rant on....

Homosexuality exists in our daily life. Homosexual persons are individuals as are heterosexual persons - black, white, fat, skinny, strong, weak, attractive, ugly, smart, stupid, feminine, masculine, responsible, irresponsible, doctors, lawyers, addicts, killers, pedophiles, priests, senators, buddhas, awake, asleep, it's all the same. Overall, they tend to face more challenging situations throughout their lives then their hetero- counterparts due to our religion/myth-obsessed society and culture. We tend to lump them together so that we can feel more confident in our ability to "understand them" as if that were possible to do. Just like we lump together blacks, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, politicians, cops... As long as we label people, we will never see them for who they are - us!, we will only see our image of who we have decided they are. Drop your images of "homosexuals" and give people the courtesy of seeing them as human. They are you! The "I" is the same. Everything else is illusion. Once this is understood, compassion will be unavoidable.

PS - with all due respect, I think it's ludicrous to talk about whether any Daoist immortals are gay - they're myths for goodness sake, who cares who a myth wants to fuck? Who cares who your neighbor wants to fuck? Why should you or I care? What difference does it make that the people who wrote stories about Daoist immortals chose to describe them as straight or gay? Don't you think it simply reflects the authors and their socio-cultural biases? Or are we facing a myth that is now accepted as literal fact, that's even scarier... You and I are every bit as immortal as are the so called Daoist immortals, we just don't see the forest for the trees - wake up!

Sorry for the rant but I have seen alot of suffering among homosexual friends and family members and the ignorance and insensitivity that surrounds this topic pisses me off...

Rant off...

PS - Cam - don't take this as a slam at you for starting the thread - it's not

Edited October 28, 2007 by xuesheng

[SFJane]

I'll be technical.. According to what we are taugh. Male to male homosexuality is not ok. Female to female is ok and is called polishing mirrors. It actually increases the yin.

 

To be VERY technical what is not ok in male to male homosexuality is butt fucking. That is what harms the energetic system.

 

 

Here is the deal. You guys all know by now that the small heavenly circuit is always on to a greater or lesser degree in most people if they are mostly neurologically intact and have reasonably relaxed breathing.

 

anal sex send yang pulses right up the yang channels into the brain and beyond if you let it. in fact I dare say, like a super charger.

 

what a lot of people do not talk about for whatever reason is their experiences with anal sex, male or female.

 

I am an Aquarius, this grants me full perv license to talk about this.

 

To enjoy anal sex, is to be able to relax. What most people will not talk about is how this is accomplished.

 

To be able to allow a penis of any size and dimension into your body and then to proceed to vigorous intercourse is to surrender your body.

 

You must relax and open and surrender inside yourself. This process of opening inward and surrendering inward creates a vortex. The act of complete physical surrender is so massively Yin, that it absorbs the Yang like a black hole. To the point of exhausting the yang invasion without having even been satiated.

 

That is the secret to anal sex cultivation.

 

Like with all power, you do not let it go to your head.

 

Surrender into your being and your Yin will protect both of you.

Edited October 28, 2007 by SFJane

[Spectrum]

This process of opening inward and surrendering inward creates a vortex. The act of complete physical surrender is so massively Yin, that it absorbs the Yang like a black hole. To the point of exhausting the yang invasion without having even been satiated.

 

Thats the secret to everything.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I attended the first Water Method retreat with BKF in California after Relaxing Into Your Being.

 

I have bee practicing Taoist cultivating for well over a decade. Ever since I started taking energy arts classes, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Nei Gung, whatever, I gave myself over to the philosophy and path of the Water Method.

 

These questions were all asked of BKF when I was there. Bear in mind, I have only the highest regard for all of BKF's stuff and am a *devotee* of his teachings, but I disagree with the Big Master.

 

BKF is safely ensconced in heterosexuality. His master has been dead for some time and he had a chance to break course instead of toe the line. I have heard this *polishing the mirror* and how it's ok for girls to play with each other, but not guys. Well in ten years of practicing BKF's stuff, this is where I part ways.

 

I am a freak. People's chromosomes mean very little to me. I have done tantra with men, women, and male to female transsexuals, and female to male transsexuals. I have had sex with just about every kind of deviant, genital configuration or hormone variation under the sun. I have even played with someone with Kleinfelter's

 

I know things about practicing taoist sexual work that BKF only theorizes about.

 

Hi Jane,

 

I really wish that this thread had never been started as I don't really see anything positive coming out of it. Everyone has strong beliefs, and I don't feel anybody will be swayed one way or the other. I also regret posting that quote from the Falun Dafa leader Li Hongzi, as I do not even subscribe to their beliefs. My point in posting it was that many masters seem to frown heavily upon homosexuality. Li Hongzi's opinion is an extreme. Personally, I don't really care what anyone does behind closed doors as long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else. But that having been said, I disagree that Bruce should break course from his master. If an extremely high level masters like Liu Hung Chieh took so much effort expounding on an issue, then it should not be taken lightly. Furthermore, if Bruce turned his back on an oath he took just because his master passed away, I would lose a lot of respect for Bruce.

 

Brgds!

[SFJane]

Hi Jane,

 

Personally, I don't really care what anyone does behind closed doors as long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else. But that having been said, I disagree that Bruce should break course from his master. If an extremely high level masters like Liu Hung Chieh took so much effort expounding on an issue, then it should not be taken lightly. Furthermore, if Bruce turned his back on an oath he took just because his master passed away, I would lose a lot of respect for Bruce.

 

Brgds!

 

Fealty and unswerving devotion to a teacher's directions is considered by many a virtue. It can also be a vise. Not vice, a vise.

 

Everything must be looked at via perspective. As a devotee of BKF's stuff, I have made it my business to read everything the man ever wrote, committed to print, anything. Every news article, every interview.

 

Liu Hung Chieh was a conservative old man when he met Bruce. Bruce himself learned some of his sex stuff from Wang Shu Jin, a man with a hearty appetite for sex. Supposedly Wang himself was in a taoist sex cult at one point.

 

I do not indulge in worship of the living or the dead. Liu Hung Chieh was an accomplished meditation and nei jia master with a depth of knowledge on the arcana of chi gung practices. He was still a human and I am going to guess his feces stunk like any other mortal.

 

Respect and acknowledge mastery. Do not worship the feet and gospel of a teacher. Learn from a teacher, but you do not have to copy their personal morality and philosophy.

 

Liu Hung Chieh was a hermit. He was not a perv nor did he live the scene in some all inclusive neighborhood. He never went to SF Pride weekend. He was a provincial. Olde school.

 

He may have taught Fire and Water practices but he is not all knowing and infallible. I refuse to indulge in blind uncritical hero worship.

 

One of the qualities I judge in a person is common sense and critical thinking. I lose respect for people that just nod and say yes without giving it a second thought.

 

That is how lineage and religious schisms have been evolving for millennium. People have a doctrine belief, a differing opinion, a different morality. They feel so strongly about this, they split. They follow the teaching they learned, all of them, but they part ways on details details details.

 

Now, you can believe the words of a conservative old taoist guy who lived in Confucian society. A man who by all account, did not care for sex at all! He only did the nasty to do his Confucian duty to family and state and have children! He was not a sexually liberated guy. He was anal retentive about sex. I am going to call a spade a spade. Who are you going to believe? Some guy that had hetero intercourse once or twice? Or someone that has done tantra with some of the more exotic of God's creatures?

 

I have experience! Liu did not. BKF does not have my experience in this matter! Are you going to accept the word of someone that uses theory? Or someone that has actually done it and been there done that?

 

Quite frankly I think Liu and BKF are full of it on this subject! That's where I stand. I have repaired physical, mental, emotional, spiritual and karmic problems with meditation, I have repaired my own chi several times.

 

I know how these practices actually work with different genders. What does Liu say about people with XXY chromosomes? what about XXXY? Liu Hung Chieh was a hick, a provincial and he did not even like sex.

 

Again who are going to believe? Did not someone mention what a shame it was that you guys did not have someone who has tried all this stuff? Now you do!

 

There comes a point when you have to get beyond the magic spell that learning from a master puts over you. do your own critical thinking and experimenting, to get your own experiential answers to those questions and settle all dispute. There comes a point that any student bent on mastery is going to disagree with and form different opinions than their teachers, and stick to their guns on the subject. That is critical thinking. The ability to separate the master as a man or from their teachings is essential. I respect a person that disagrees with their teacher based on their experiments and conclusions because that shows they are trying to live the teachings and figure them out on their own.

 

Edit. While I was editing this post, it occurred to me where I have seen the infallible master logic fallacy. On my videos! People do this about doctors too. It is a bias, an authority bias or master fallacy. I talk on my channel about how meditation and dissolving beat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. When I make comments on other people's videos, when I disagree with the party line on mental illness sooner or later I get a comment or an email that reads like this. "Umm are you a doctor? Did you go to medical school? Ok how are you qualified to talk about this?" When people who do not know me, see me voice an opinion counter to the standard catechism, they question my credentials. This entails a belief that either a doctor is always right or a doctor is never wrong. This is disproven on a daily basis with malpractice cases or new scientific discoveries disproving old theories. A PhD does not mean you are never wrong. Just because someone is a *Master* does not mean they are never wrong. If you believe that you are sycophant really. Really ask yourself this question, what if insert X where is X = some master, is wrong? What then?

 

Why do I need a PhD to talk about my life with mental illness with authority ? answer, I don't

Why do I need to be a Master to be right about trantra practices? answer, I don't

 

Not being a master or a phd does not invalidate me if I am right.

 

Knowledge is knowledge is knowledge, however learned.

Edited October 28, 2007 by SFJane

[SFJane]

I will tell you something else. You guys are studying Taoism. The deal is here is change and changelessness, form and formlessness.

 

I am about the least judgmental person you are going to find when it comes to different people. I value spirits, not bodies. I values hearts and minds, not catechism and dogma. If you are a freak or perv or a mutant or an alien, you will find shelter with me. I do not teach people based on their sexual, gender or chromosomal states. When it comes to sexuality and psychology I daresay you will find me more inclusive and accepting than perhaps many mainstream teachers. I love Mary Magdalene and St Paul. I love the sinners and the outcasts. I love the Fallen and the strange. One of the reasons I believe in Taoism is that Universal Consciousness is way too powerful to remotely give a shit about this discussion.

 

Think about that when you choose a teacher.

 

If this topic disturbs you in anyway. Then you are not comfortable inside yourself on these subjects. As a meditation student and teacher and volunteer therapist. I would tell you that if this thread disturbs you, you have a blockage of some kind inside your being, somewhere,mentally, emotionally, somewhere in you is disturbed chi that you have not dealt with. If I were your teacher, and you told me this thread troubles your mind, I would tell you go meditate and dissolve, until none of these subjects trouble you anymore.

 

That's Taoism.

Edited October 28, 2007 by SFJane

[宁]

oh my... sweet potatoes...

i think sexual impulses and eating habits are those that define one person in it's most essential ways.

it is even said that your sexuality is the root of your identity.

you can take it from here

[Cameron]

Hi Jane,

 

I really wish that this thread had never been started as I don't really see anything positive coming out of it. Everyone has strong beliefs, and I don't feel anybody will be swayed one way or the other. I also regret posting that quote from the Falun Dafa leader Li Hongzi, as I do not even subscribe to their beliefs. My point in posting it was that many masters seem to frown heavily upon homosexuality. Li Hongzi's opinion is an extreme. Personally, I don't really care what anyone does behind closed doors as long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else. But that having been said, I disagree that Bruce should break course from his master. If an extremely high level masters like Liu Hung Chieh took so much effort expounding on an issue, then it should not be taken lightly. Furthermore, if Bruce turned his back on an oath he took just because his master passed away, I would lose a lot of respect for Bruce.

 

Brgds!

 

 

I don't regret starting it..not even a little..how can you say somewhat honest communication dealing with an energy that is considered..oh..I don't know...ESSENTIAL TO CULTIVATION..to be not a good thing!?

 

My sense is we should have been having MORE discussions of this level from the beginning.

[Pietro]

...There comes a point that any student bent on mastery is going to disagree with and form different opinions than their teachers, and stick to their guns on the subject. That is critical thinking. The ability to separate the master as a man or from their teachings is essential. I respect a person that disagrees with their teacher based on their experiments and conclusions because that shows they are trying to live the teachings and figure them out on their own.

...

 

Hello Jane,

are you able to take a vow?

 

I am not saying being able to take it is good or bad.

 

But I noticed that from when I started the water method (which I actually consider the taoist path, as opposed to the neo-taoist or tao-buddhist path) I have been more and more unable to keep to vows. It is as if a vow would create a blockage in me, and as soon as I went inside to dissolve my blockages, that blockage would go as well.

 

The result of this was that I soon started to lose my ability to stick to strict disciplines. A side effect of this was that I was enjoying my life much more.

 

One of the first disciplines that started leaving was my ability to be celibate. Gone.

 

Now, when you make a vow, you are not always right. Gandhi took the vow at some point never to drink (cow) milk. When he was very ill he was forced to take (goat) milk, breaking the spirit of his vow (not the letter) to remain alive. He said he did it because he wanted to see the end of the political struggle (meaning that, in another circumstance, he was willing to die not to break a vow). Now Gandhi is a particular kind of anal retentive type. He follows the way of vows. Quite as opposite to what a left hand taoist as you can go.

 

But to follow a way where there are no vows, and take no vows, or to follow a way where there are vows, and you follow them, in both cases you don't break any vow.

 

Now when BK met Liu, Bruce spirit was vow-wise in a cage. E-v-e-r-y single teacher he had asked him to take vows so he would teach him. As you know, Liu solved all this by formally adopting Bruce (you can teach to your kid whatever you want), re-teach him everything Bruce already know (thus freeing him from all the other vow), and just keeping this one. You know all this, but some of the other Tao Bums don't, so it is worth repeating.

 

Bruce could just have ignored those vows, but he didn't. Why?

 

Now those vows are not taken lightly, and not followed because they are right. They are mostly followed because once you have taken it you have placed your spirit in a cage by your own words. In a sense they are structuring the spirit by putting limit to it. I know, it is as opposite as the water method can go.

 

But the water method, as you certainly know, insists that you reach inside yourself for a deep understanding about what is moral and ethical for you, and what is not. For Bruce not to break his word is obviously important.

 

I am raising all this because I have reason to think that Bruce himself does not fully agree with that vow, now. I don't know for sure, but I heard him saying in a lesson: "and when you make a vow to a dead man, that's it. You are stuck with the vow".

 

And this is part of Bruce personal morality and philosophy. You seem to have a different one. And this is why my question:

are you able, Jane, to take a vow?

 

Not an "I think I'll do this because it makes sense out of what I know now"-type of decision, but a vow. Take it, and stick to it.

 

And my second question: if you are not (or equivalently, if you see no virtue in vows at all), were you able before starting the water method?

 

Because Bruce is, he is obviously doing it, and all his years of dissolving didn't impede his ability to keep his word.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Fealty and unswerving devotion to a teacher's directions is considered by many a virtue. It can also be a vise. Not vice, a vise.

 

Everything must be looked at via perspective. As a devotee of BKF's stuff, I have made it my business to read everything the man ever wrote, committed to print, anything. Every news article, every interview.

 

Liu Hung Chieh was a conservative old man when he met Bruce. Bruce himself learned some of his sex stuff from Wang Shu Jin, a man with a hearty appetite for sex. Supposedly Wang himself was in a taoist sex cult at one point.

 

I do not indulge in worship of the living or the dead. Liu Hung Chieh was an accomplished meditation and nei jia master with a depth of knowledge on the arcana of chi gung practices. He was still a human and I am going to guess his feces stunk like any other mortal.

 

Respect and acknowledge mastery. Do not worship the feet and gospel of a teacher. Learn from a teacher, but you do not have to copy their personal morality and philosophy.

 

Liu Hung Chieh was a hermit. He was not a perv nor did he live the scene in some all inclusive neighborhood. He never went to SF Pride weekend. He was a provincial. Olde school.

 

He may have taught Fire and Water practices but he is not all knowing and infallible. I refuse to indulge in blind uncritical hero worship.

 

One of the qualities I judge in a person is common sense and critical thinking. I lose respect for people that just nod and say yes without giving it a second thought.

 

That is how lineage and religious schisms have been evolving for millennium. People have a doctrine belief, a differing opinion, a different morality. They feel so strongly about this, they split. They follow the teaching they learned, all of them, but they part ways on details details details.

 

Now, you can believe the words of a conservative old taoist guy who lived in Confucian society. A man who by all account, did not care for sex at all! He only did the nasty to do his Confucian duty to family and state and have children! He was not a sexually liberated guy. He was anal retentive about sex. I am going to call a spade a spade. Who are you going to believe? Some guy that had hetero intercourse once or twice? Or someone that has done tantra with some of the more exotic of God's creatures?

 

Liu Hung Chieh

 

I have experience! Liu did not. BKF does not have my experience in this matter! Are you going to accept the word of someone that uses theory? Or someone that has actually done it and been there done that?

 

Quite frankly I think Liu and BKF are full of it on this subject! That's where I stand. I have repaired physical, mental, emotional, spiritual and karmic problems with meditation, I have repaired my own chi several times.

 

I know how these practices actually work with different genders. What does Liu say about people with XXY chromosomes? what about XXXY? Liu Hung Chieh was a hick, a provincial and he did not even like sex.

 

Again who are going to believe? Did not someone mention what a shame it was that you guys did not have someone who has tried all this stuff? Now you do!

 

There comes a point when you have to get beyond the magic spell that learning from a master puts over you. do your own critical thinking and experimenting, to get your own experiential answers to those questions and settle all dispute. There comes a point that any student bent on mastery is going to disagree with and form different opinions than their teachers, and stick to their guns on the subject. That is critical thinking. The ability to separate the master as a man or from their teachings is essential. I respect a person that disagrees with their teacher based on their experiments and conclusions because that shows they are trying to live the teachings and figure them out on their own.

 

Edit. While I was editing this post, it occurred to me where I have seen the infallible master logic fallacy. On my videos! People do this about doctors too. It is a bias, an authority bias or master fallacy. I talk on my channel about how meditation and dissolving beat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. When I make comments on other people's videos, when I disagree with the party line on mental illness sooner or later I get a comment or an email that reads like this. "Umm are you a doctor? Did you go to medical school? Ok how are you qualified to talk about this?" When people who do not know me, see me voice an opinion counter to the standard catechism, they question my credentials. This entails a belief that either a doctor is always right or a doctor is never wrong. This is disproven on a daily basis with malpractice cases or new scientific discoveries disproving old theories. A PhD does not mean you are never wrong. Just because someone is a *Master* does not mean they are never wrong. If you believe that you are sycophant really. Really ask yourself this question, what if insert X where is X = some master, is wrong? What then?

 

Why do I need a PhD to talk about my life with mental illness with authority ? answer, I don't

Why do I need to be a Master to be right about trantra practices? answer, I don't

 

Not being a master or a phd does not invalidate me if I am right.

 

Knowledge is knowledge is knowledge, however learned.

 

Hmmm where do I start? Well, let me play Devil's advocate here for a moment. If I am reading you correctly, you are saying Liu Hung Chieh cannot denounce homsexuality because he never indulged in it. By that same rational one cannot denounce murder because they have never killed someone! This is not as if Liu said to Bruce don't eat watermelons because they taste bad at left it at that. He apparently expounded on it at length and provided historical examples. I don't imagine this belief originated with Liu either.

 

In any event, as I said I really don't care what people do behind closed, and I think you are missing my point. When Liu offered to teach BKF, BKF took the vows that Liu laid forth. BKF and Liu entered into a major karmic contract. It would be very very bad for BKF to break that agreement IMHO.

 

FWIW, you don't need a PHD to talk about subjects but if you want the "establishment" to take you seriously, then you have to play by their rules. Not saying I agree with it, but that's just the way it is.

 

I will tell you something else. You guys are studying Taoism. The deal is here is change and changelessness, form and formlessness.

 

I am about the least judgmental person you are going to find when it comes to different people. I value spirits, not bodies. I values hearts and minds, not catechism and dogma. If you are a freak or perv or a mutant or an alien, you will find shelter with me. I do not teach people based on their sexual, gender or chromosomal states. When it comes to sexuality and psychology I daresay you will find me more inclusive and accepting than perhaps many mainstream teachers. I love Mary Magdalene and St Paul. I love the sinners and the outcasts. I love the Fallen and the strange. One of the reasons I believe in Taoism is that Universal Consciousness is way too powerful to remotely give a shit about this discussion.

 

Think about that when you choose a teacher.

 

If this topic disturbs you in anyway. Then you are not comfortable inside yourself on these subjects. As a meditation student and teacher and volunteer therapist. I would tell you that if this thread disturbs you, you have a blockage of some kind inside your being, somewhere,mentally, emotionally, somewhere in you is disturbed chi that you have not dealt with. If I were your teacher, and you told me this thread troubles your mind, I would tell you go meditate and dissolve, until none of these subjects trouble you anymore.

 

That's Taoism.

 

I guess I must be a repressed homosexual then! Talking about Tax cuts for the rich also makes me uncomfortable. I guess I must also be a repressed Republican. Again you missed my point Jane. My point is simply that it will turn into one of those threads where everybody has an opinion, and tempers start flaring up. It just becomes tiresome, a waste of energy and mentally draining. And in the end for everyone's efforts, nobody's opinions really changes.

 

P.S. I still love you Janie

[Pietro]

...

For further Bushmen sources you can read my "The Biomusic Conspiracy" article at http://www.mondovista.com/rainbow.html

 

Dr. Elizabeth Marshall Thomas' book "The Harmless People"

 

or "Women Like Meat" by Professor Megan Biesele http://www.amazon.com/Women-Like-Meat-Folk...7234&sr=1-1

 

or the essay "Healing and Transformation" by Dr. Richard Katz in the book "Therapeutic Aspects of Altered States of Consciousness" are three excellent sources for Bushmen healing secrets -- it's the same as qigong.

Thank you Drew,

I read your article, but I had a sudden problem when you started speaking about quantum physics. I am sorry about it, but my whole body itches and fills with red spots, as soon as I hear the q. word outside of the sacred container of a physical institute. I hope you will understand.

 

Please, I would like not to buy books from Amazon, only to discover that they exacerbate my already dangerous condition. Will I be at ease with your other references or are they filled of the q. word also?

 

Thanks again,

Pietro

[voidisyinyang]

My information online covers all the ranges of accessibility, writing style, debates, dialog, etc. My old blog is http://drewhempel.gnn.tv. My new blogbook is http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com. I have a new article at http://mind-energy.net that links to 3 previous articles.

 

My masters thesis is linked at http://nonduality.com/hempel.htm. along with my bio.

Edited October 29, 2007 by drew hempel

[freeform]

Everyone has strong beliefs, and I don't feel anybody will be swayed one way or the other.

 

actually... I dont....

 

well - to be honest that's not quite true - what I have found is that I must hold two strong beliefs that oppose each other.

 

So I hold the belief that being gay and enjoying gay sex would preclude one from any reasonable level of development - and - I also hold the belief that being gay and enjoying gay sex would improve the chances of someone reaching a reasonable level of development.

 

In between, right in the middle of these polar opposites is something special - kind of like emptiness or non-attachment or not-knowing or blissful confusion... I tend to prefer to hold to this middle point. I hold to the middle and then I see how my body reacts to external stimulus in regards to this specific duality.

 

So when I read this thread (or with any interaction) my natural response (usually) is to unequivocally agree with the point of view of that person - then I just return to the middle... If I'm prompted for an oppinion I usually just watch myself answer whatever I answer... ofcourse the next time the answer might be different lol

 

We often try to scoop up the infiniteness of the universe with a desert-spoon of a mind and then declare the contents of the spoon as 'the truth'... I mean this does serve to make things seem simple and under control... but... well, you know....

 

 

....and could a severely disabled person reach a high level of cultivation?

 

 

(fun to watch the mind squirm and chase after the heroin of 'truth', no?)

[Pietro]

My information online covers all the ranges of accessibility, writing style, debates, dialog, etc. My old blog is http://drewhempel.gnn.tv. My new blogbook is http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com. I have a new article at http://mind-energy.net that links to 3 previous articles.

 

My masters thesis is linked at http://nonduality.com/hempel.htm. along with my bio.

Thanks, I wouldn't be able to survive most of it. My limit.

I might give a shot to your master thesis

if it might contain anything related to Bushman,

and hopeing you kept yourself on common ground a bit more.

But essentially that's why I asked you about the other books.

Pietro

Edited October 29, 2007 by Pietro

[nightwatchdog]

"Shakyamuni exclaimed: 'Wonderful! Wonderful! How can it be that all sentient beings are endowed with the intrinsic wisdom of the Tathagata?' Even though one believes that one has oneself attained enlightenment, if, from his point of view other creatures are not enlightened as well, one's enlightenment is not genuine. With one's realizing one's Buddha-Nature, the possibility of which is possessed by every person, all sentient beings attain thier Buddha-Nature. This is the meaning of the above quote from the Nirvana Sutra, 'All sentient beings have Buddha-Nature."

 

-A Study of Dogen, Masao Abe

Edited October 29, 2007 by nightwatchdog

[voidisyinyang]

THE BIG LOVE -- here's an interview with Dr. Bradford Keeney, a psychologist recognized as a shaman by the Bushmen. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/161/story_16144_1.html

 

 

 

 

"Shakyamuni exclaimed: 'Wonderful! Wonderful! How can it be that all sentient beings are endowed with the intrinsic wisdom of the Tathagata?' Even though one believes that one has oneself attained enlightenment, if, from his point of view other creatures are not enlightened as well, one's enlightenment is not genuine. With one's realizing one's Buddha-Nature, the possibility of which is possessed by every person, all sentient beings attain thier Buddha-Nature. This is the meaning of the above quote from the Nirvana Sutra, 'All sentient beings have Buddha-Nature."

 

-A Study of Dogen, Masao Abe

[Yoda]

THE BIG LOVE -- here's an interview with Dr. Bradford Keeney, a psychologist recognized as a shaman by the Bushmen. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/161/story_16144_1.html

 

Amazing article, thanks!