Man Love

[minusmode]

I'm completely unfamiliar with what you folks are talking about as far as the mechanics of yin and yang in sexual cultivation, but speaking as a bisexual who is just starting to learn about Taoism in general, my thoughts are that nature has an innate tendency toward balance that it would take a lot more than two men having butt sex to upset in some way. As for energy leakage resulting from it, I just have a feeling there would be more energy waisted worrying about something like that than from the leakage. Reading through this thread, I started more and more envisioning this fragile and precarious world in which the natural order is threatened at every turn and the Tao is a helpless victim of evil man's decadence. Very different from the world I see when I read the Tao Te Ching. But I guess I tend to feel towards a lot of Taoism with regard to the writings attributed to Lao Tsu the same way I feel about most of Christianity with regard to the sayings of Jesus. Someone had some good ideas and then a lot of people started throwing their two cents in and today we have a few diamonds buried under a huge pile of pennies. I realize that I'm saying this about very time honored traditions of knowledge held sacred by millions for thousands of years, but it's just gotta make sense to me or I can't buy it. Then again I'm human and being such I am biased. I love butt sex! And I'm still here!

Edited October 29, 2007 by minusmode

[gendao]

I have never met a Daoist Nun who shaved her head. (bald smiley)

Yea, I thought it was Buddhist monks & nuns who shaved their heads? One reason I heard being to eliminate visual racial/gender differences. Or perhaps as a form of cross-cultural tonsure.

 

And on a sidenote - why do Buddhist monks/nuns have 2 rows of incense dots on the tops of their heads?

Instead I just use the pressure of the full-lotus because again I found that people craved this love energy so badly -- I had to be on the defensive all the time.

 

So I decided that the best defense is a good offense. Preemptive qigong healing.

Interesting. So, what exactly makes the full-lotus such a powerful position? And what position are your hands in this?

Just watch what happens when gays start to thrive in any community. Good restaurants start popping up, better movie theaters, interesting little art galleries, dance performances, great indie bands, the coolest bars and clubs, a thriving and playful nightlife in the floating world starts to form.

 

Straight people have dropped the ball on art and fun people, let's face it.

A lot of this is a function of childless couples and singles - which most gays are. When you have a double-income household with no extra mouths to feed...all that disposable income gets pumped into the neighborhood & community. Basically the opposite of ghettoes. Which is why such gentrified areas have high gay populations...less kids = more disposable income = wealthier hoods.

 

And another reason why I suspect corporate America pushes delayed (or no) childbirth for independent career women and homosexuality now. All of that translates into more disposable income for entertainment and "adult toys" like that new HDTV or Lexus SUV.

[doc benway]

Reading through this thread, I started more and more envisioning this fragile and precarious world in which the natural order is threatened at every turn and the Tao is a helpless victim of evil man's decadence. Very different from the world I see when I read the Tao Te Ching. But I guess I tend to feel towards a lot of Taoism with regard to the writings attributed to Lao Tsu the same way I feel about most of Christianity with regard to the sayings of Jesus. Someone had some good ideas and then a lot of people started throwing their two cents in and today we have a few diamonds buried under a huge pile of pennies. I realize that I'm saying this about very time honored traditions of knowledge held sacred by millions for thousands of years, but it's just gotta make sense to me or I can't buy it. Then again I'm human and being such I am biased. I love butt sex! And I'm still here!

Well said!

The Dao has nothing to fear from man since man is but a blink in the Dao's eye.

I totally agree regarding the diamond and pennies analogy...

some wonderful principles were developed as a guide for right, natural living. Gurus and teachers interpret things as they see fit and we accept their interpretations. There's nothing that will lead you further astray than a well-intentioned teacher!

This exercept from Laozi seems salient to this discussion:

 

Can you hold the door of your mind

open wide to the universe?

With the natural grace of a child,

at the same time, can you become a parent?

Can you befriend all

without prejudice or taboo?

Can you perfect your sight,

discover your faults and

master yourself?

Can you balance the forces of both sexes within?

If you can,

give birth to a new life

and carefully nurture its growing.

Show the way without strife,

stay in the lead and in the right,

without your followers knowing

yours is the Great Way.

 

 

 

--Lao Tze

[minusmode]

Well said!

The Dao has nothing to fear from man since man is but a blink in the Dao's eye.

I totally agree regarding the diamond and pennies analogy...

some wonderful principles were developed as a guide for right, natural living. Gurus and teachers interpret things as they see fit and we accept their interpretations. There's nothing that will lead you further astray than a well-intentioned teacher!

This exercept from Laozi seems salient to this discussion:

 

Can you hold the door of your mind

open wide to the universe?

With the natural grace of a child,

at the same time, can you become a parent?

Can you befriend all

without prejudice or taboo?

Can you perfect your sight,

discover your faults and

master yourself?

Can you balance the forces of both sexes within?

If you can,

give birth to a new life

and carefully nurture its growing.

Show the way without strife,

stay in the lead and in the right,

without your followers knowing

yours is the Great Way.

--Lao Tze

Great quote. Definitely salient. That's why I like Lao Tze as much as Lao Tzu...always makes

sense to me.

[Pietro]

THE BIG LOVE -- here's an interview with Dr. Bradford Keeney, a psychologist recognized as a shaman by the Bushmen. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/161/story_16144_1.html

 

Thnaks,

very appreciated.

 

Pietro

[SFJane]

 

Hmmm where do I start? Well, let me play Devil's advocate here for a moment. If I am reading you correctly, you are saying Liu Hung Chieh cannot denounce homsexuality because he never indulged in it. By that same rational one cannot denounce murder because they have never killed someone!

 

I do not know what to say to that man. I find it troubling you can make a rationalization or comparison or analogy using condoning or condemning homosexuality and murder. I am baffled. If you can not see how that is a logical fallacy, I don't know what I can say.

 

I guess I must be a repressed homosexual then!

 

I never insinuated that at all. That one is all you. I highly doubt you are a repressed homosexual and you know it too.

 

I guess to wrap up my response to you. If you want to believe Liu on the subject, go for it. You won't hurt yourself or anyone else, so, all the power to you.

 

If we are going to use strange and not quite applicable analogies I guess that maybe you taking Liu's word on tantra is kind of perhaps like back to the old explorer days.

 

You are a traveler, pondering how best to travel around and see the sights. You have heard the earth is flat and that the earth is round. Who do you believe? You ponder the greek theories and Galileo but still unconvinced you ask around. Well some will tell you you need only put your trust in the Vatican. They say the earth is flat. what? are you going to disagree with the VATICAN? Who the hell are you?

 

Or you could just ask an explorer. Someone that wanted to experientially understand how the earth actually is by seafaring or circumnavigating the globe.

 

That is how I see it. I am not the Vatican of meditation, I am just another explorer, but I made my maps based off what I found, not by what I was told.

 

Really there was so many ifs perhaps possiblys and maybes in Liu's rationale your skeptic-O-meter should be pinging loud and clear.

 

If someone was convincing you to get surgery would you do it because they said " If this happens, then this might possibly happen, perhaps, maybe" or because they authoritatively told you what was wrong, what would happen and the outcome, no ifs maybes or perhaps.

 

That is how I see it. I am going to call out the burden of proof on that and there is no way Liu can or BKF will take on experimenting to find out yes or no.

 

But I did. I am fine. I know it how works from doing it first hand not speculating about it perhaps maybe if possibly

 

 

And in the end for everyone's efforts, nobody's opinions really changes.

 

P.S. I still love you Janie

 

you are quite right, and I love you to

 

no way to assume we will ever all agree on everything equally.

 

would not be as interesting either

--------

 

Hello Jane,

are you able to take a vow?

 

I am not saying being able to take it is good or bad.

 

But I noticed that from when I started the water method (which I actually consider the taoist path, as opposed to the neo-taoist or tao-buddhist path) I have been more and more unable to keep to vows. It is as if a vow would create a blockage in me, and as soon as I went inside to dissolve my blockages, that blockage would go as well.

 

The result of this was that I soon started to lose my ability to stick to strict disciplines. A side effect of this was that I was enjoying my life much more.

 

One of the first disciplines that started leaving was my ability to be celibate. Gone.

 

Now, when you make a vow, you are not always right. Gandhi took the vow at some point never to drink (cow) milk. When he was very ill he was forced to take (goat) milk, breaking the spirit of his vow (not the letter) to remain alive. He said he did it because he wanted to see the end of the political struggle (meaning that, in another circumstance, he was willing to die not to break a vow). Now Gandhi is a particular kind of anal retentive type. He follows the way of vows. Quite as opposite to what a left hand taoist as you can go.

 

But to follow a way where there are no vows, and take no vows, or to follow a way where there are vows, and you follow them, in both cases you don't break any vow.

 

Now when BK met Liu, Bruce spirit was vow-wise in a cage. E-v-e-r-y single teacher he had asked him to take vows so he would teach him. As you know, Liu solved all this by formally adopting Bruce (you can teach to your kid whatever you want), re-teach him everything Bruce already know (thus freeing him from all the other vow), and just keeping this one. You know all this, but some of the other Tao Bums don't, so it is worth repeating.

 

Bruce could just have ignored those vows, but he didn't. Why?

 

Now those vows are not taken lightly, and not followed because they are right. They are mostly followed because once you have taken it you have placed your spirit in a cage by your own words. In a sense they are structuring the spirit by putting limit to it. I know, it is as opposite as the water method can go.

 

But the water method, as you certainly know, insists that you reach inside yourself for a deep understanding about what is moral and ethical for you, and what is not. For Bruce not to break his word is obviously important.

 

I am raising all this because I have reason to think that Bruce himself does not fully agree with that vow, now. I don't know for sure, but I heard him saying in a lesson: "and when you make a vow to a dead man, that's it. You are stuck with the vow".

 

And this is part of Bruce personal morality and philosophy. You seem to have a different one. And this is why my question:

are you able, Jane, to take a vow?

 

Not an "I think I'll do this because it makes sense out of what I know now"-type of decision, but a vow. Take it, and stick to it.

 

And my second question: if you are not (or equivalently, if you see no virtue in vows at all), were you able before starting the water method?

 

Because Bruce is, he is obviously doing it, and all his years of dissolving didn't impede his ability to keep his word.

 

Ok I know this thread was about to disappear off the bottom and I wanted to let it but I felt bad not responding to you Pietro, I needed time to think about your questions

 

The answer Pietro is that no, I can not take a vow. I have in the past.

 

I can remember when I was super super Catholic and my whole life revolved around devotional practices I wanted to honor my mother and father as per commandments. I made vows to my folks that I would never swear, steal, lie, cheat, smoke, do drugs or have sex until I was married.

 

Know what?

 

I broke almost every single oath by the time I was 14. At 15 I broke the drugs and sex vow too.

 

There you have it. I have been a sinner in every way, even breaking vows to not break vows.

 

What I understand that you and Oolong are aiming at, is whether or not I think BKF copped out of being more magnanimous by adhering to his vows to Liu. I know the Liu's adoption of BKF was a Confucian ceremony.

 

I think you both have a point about respecting the man for sticking to his vows.

 

Like yourself Pietro, I too discovered that after exposure to the Water Method, all vows seem to do was make energy blockages that then need to be dissolved.

 

The coolest part was learning to forgive myself for breaking all those vows when I was under massive social, family and psychological pressure as a kid. I got over being guilty about being a vow breaker for 10 years.

 

If you had asked me ten years ago, I would have said that it is an admirable respectable thing that BKF obeys Liu. Now, I think it is more of a hindrance. I have sympathy and empathy for a vow breaker. I really do, I could not condemn BKF for voluntarily escaping from a spiritual straitjacket. I will not condemn him for failing to dissolve out of those bonds. I just do not agree with him that is all. That does not diminish my respect for the man in the slightest. We all move uneasily in our restraints in life.

 

Nevertheless, just as quick as I am to say I that I follow BKF's teachings as best I can, I also do not agree with him on everything. Call me a Kumar Heretic or irreverent but I make no pretense on this subject and I will teach anyone that wants to learn how to do these things if they ask me.

 

Being homosexual doesn't mean one can not cultivate. They will only get so far, and when so far gets reached, it does matter.

 

this is like sexism but for gays right? I hope you don't actually think this. If you do, I am laughing. This is so full of it. I have to laugh or I would get annoyed with the stupidity and falseness of it.

 

If you really want to know ask an immortal.

Otherwise it is pure speculation.

 

lol? why not ask a living person that actually does these practices specifically to find out how they actually work and what if any is the real deal behind all the hysteria

 

Anal sex in any form with anyone is not proper at all for one's health, and cultivation.

It causes leakages in one's essence, directly out of the kidneys.

For men having anal sex, it is adding toxic energy to their system like plugging into an electrical outlet.

 

what total nonsense. anal sex is healthy and speeds up cultivation, that is why the straight immortals do not have any clue what they are talking about only guesses. They need to open their anus and find out for themselves instead of spinning lies and fantasy and untested theory

 

 

could be a form of vampirising

 

It is stealing one's energy for one's own satisfaction.

 

this is really getting entertaining.

 

Vampirism only happens when you as the top or bottom, do it deliberately. Otherwise it's just energy doing it's thing.

 

For the top, when you are pulling out for the next stroke, you close your kwa, left and right channels and this action sucks energy from the tail of the bottom person into your tool into your spine for you do whatever with.

 

Regardless of whether the bottom is male or female or say..XXXY, that person breathes deeply to receive. If the receiver has any facility at all with his or her sphincters, he or she can strip the energy out of the penetrator during both the inward and outward strokes. Again, like a black hole. The person on the bottom is far better able to drain energy than the top. By virtue of manifesting Yin in order to be penetrated.

 

For the penetrator, use reverse breathing on the withdraw stroke to get your chi back. Not hard, but must be a conscious effort. If you keep pulling like that on every withdraw stroke, you will start pulling her energy right into you. Vampirism thing is going both way but in favor of the bottom. Again, it's intent. Deliberate or unintentional vampirism for either the top or the bottom is very seductive and fulfilling and fun.

 

A sifu I worked with who gave powerful transmission told me that when he works with gay men, as their energy aligns and balances they enter great turmoil as they feel their attraction to men slipping away, and this is very challenging to their self concepts. they have to decide to continue the work and become non - gay, or stop, and preserve their previous energy pattern.

 

HAHAHA this is the best one yet, maybe, Lin's are pretty entertaining so far.

 

 

Would you tell someone that was born liking spicy food they should change to not liking it because it agitates the alimentary canal in some people?

 

Would you tell someone born red-green color blind to use alchemy or energy work to get over it?

 

Would tell someone that was born disliking spicy food that during energy work, they should just face the choice, to follow their impulse and avoid spicy food, or to go against that impulse and make themselves eat it?

 

Would you tell the stars to move for you? Would you tell the ocean tide not to come in while you are at the beach?

 

Would you try to teach a cat not to kill a mouse?

 

People are born gay and there is nothing wrong with it any way shape or form except what ever morality check you place over homosexuality based on your upbringing. When you were a squalling baby you had no ideas about the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality. You picked up your biases from your environment and either accepted them or rejected them. Gay people are not denied high level cultivation nor are they karmically in danger of any sort. This is so patently ridiculous and untrue and unproven and mostly unprovable. It is annoying and amusing to see this crap in this thread. So many of you are so smart and learned and you let a little thing like environmental bias interfere with reason,sad really.

 

I for one call BS on the entire thing. Many successful gay people that are comfortable with themselves are unbelievably intelligent and wise. They would pick up on these practices with greater speed and facility than some others. Some of you need to take some humanities courses in a San Francisco Uni and just get over these useless and false and unfounded and really harmful biases against homosexuals.

 

If I had not already said it, if you are GLBT, come to me, I will teach whatever you want sans the mind games and morality shit with the caveat that I can only take you as far as I have gone.

 

I am interested in beings, in spirits, in shen and chi. I don't remotely give a shit whether you like boys, girls, or transsexuals. I do not care if your favorite color is blue, green or orange. I don't care whether you are a vegan or a meat eater. Really there are so many better things to care about. I will give you the real deal as I know it and not make you feel guilty for being exactly who you are naturally. I am all about that.

 

If you want to know what is toxic energy and thinking, it is harboring loathing or judgement for no good reason at all. What is toxic is failing to follow the calling of your heart. What is toxic to your spirit, is going against the Tao, what ever is natural for you. You can not and will not ever make me believe that anal sex is somehow catastrophically anti taoism, I do not believe it for one picosecond, so save your keystrokes trying to share your biased and limited thinking with me.

 

The Tao, the Universe, The Force, does not care if you are gay and somehow, I just can't bring myself to either.

Edited October 31, 2007 by SFJane

[Mandrake]

People are born gay and there is nothing wrong with it any way shape or form except what ever morality check you place over homosexuality based on your upbringing. When you were a squalling baby you had no ideas about the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality. You picked up your biases from your environment and either accepted them or rejected them. Gay people are not denied high level cultivation nor are they karmically in danger of any sort. This is so patently ridiculous and untrue and unproven and mostly unprovable. It is annoying and amusing to see this crap in this thread. So many of you are so smart and learned and you let a little thing like environmental bias interfere with reason,sad really.

 

Well, there's not really any more substance to these claims than political correctness. As if people need to be born with something in order to defend how they live.

 

Anyway, say that a various group - redhaired, blacks, mortadella-lovers or whatever, actually weren't as fit spiritually as the rest, would we be ready to acknowledge it? I don't believe so.

 

M

[doc benway]

 

Anyway, say that a various group - redhaired, blacks, mortadella-lovers or whatever, actually weren't as fit spiritually as the rest, would we be ready to acknowledge it? I don't believe so.

 

What does spiritually fit mean?

[SFJane]

Well, there's not really any more substance to these claims than political correctness. As if people need to be born with something in order to defend how they live.

 

Anyway, say that a various group - redhaired, blacks, mortadella-lovers or whatever, actually weren't as fit spiritually as the rest, would we be ready to acknowledge it? I don't believe so.

 

M

 

 

There is substance to these claims, my experience! You can choose to believe me or not. It's fine with me. I use to believe in all sorts of things from Santa to Yaweh to the Earth Goddess. I've moved on to what is tangible and real to all my senses.

 

Who are you or anyone really to judge what the spiritual capabilities are of any one soul in this life time?

 

If the Vorlon planet killer fleet or the Death Star came into orbit and blasted the earth into pieces instantly, we would all transcend our flesh real quick by the expedient of being involuntarily vibrated into high energy states. While our souls are moving about the rubble of Earth going wtf? We would get a good look at each other, genuine and naked and real.

 

Do you think the parameters, limitations, gifts or natural physical proclivities that a spirit being inherits when they are born into a corporeal existance someone how limits them from how strongly they can vibrate at the level of chi or shen?

 

 

My mother and I have the red haired gene. My personal bias is that I have noticed red headed men and women to be born both with a higher level of psychic sensitivity and power. They are often naturally drawn to spirituality from Third Order Franciscans to witchcraft.

 

Red heads tend to be more emo, more psychic, more sensitive and more psychotic and mentally ill than others. My mother, my grandmother and I all at once time heard voices, experienced profound depression, practiced self harm and can tell what you are thinking without you speaking. It runs in the gene.

 

Maybe I should only teach red heads because they are born already more psychically powerful than non redheads. Maybe I should espouse the idea that only red heads will ever achieve the highest levels of cultivation because they have such highly intense emotions and natural psi. Maybe teaching anyone else is a waste of my time.

 

I can make sweeping over generalizations based off my own experience and bias too. I can come to biased conclusions too. It's human, but also spiritually retarded

 

How do you guys like that rationale?

Edited October 31, 2007 by SFJane

[林愛偉]

Yea, I thought it was Buddhist monks & nuns who shaved their heads? One reason I heard being to eliminate visual racial/gender differences. Or perhaps as a form of cross-cultural tonsure.

 

And on a sidenote - why do Buddhist monks/nuns have 2 rows of incense dots on the tops of their heads?Interesting. So, what exactly makes the full-lotus such a powerful position? And what position are your hands in this?

 

No hair is a symbol of purity, just as a baby with no hair in the womb at some point. For some with high virtue, the hair just falls out off their scalps...lol Fun.

Also the no hair cultivates everyone as the same, almost looking the same physically. It can be seen as a method to aid in cultivating non discrimination.

 

The dots on the head are vows. The burning of incense is the making of vows. To know you have something out of place on the head, makes you more humble...in that everyone who sees, who is not a monk, will laugh. Either way, it was for precept/vow taking.

 

The full lotus is like a Vajra (Diamond) even like a triangle, and can be seen as a posture for cultivating power. Its physical structure allows the spine to be straight, with practice, stretches the spleen, liver and kidney meridians: which is good in order to have a more relaxed manner in mind for if spleen and or liver is not well, lots of emotional problems arise, headaches, etc.

 

And last but not least, the lotus pos. brings in more energy, keeps the mind sharper leading to better concentration. The Buddhas have all realized Complete Pure Enlightenment through full lotus as well. That maybe saying something.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

 

 

Would you tell someone that was born liking spicy food they should change to not liking it because it agitates the alimentary canal in some people?

 

Would you tell someone born red-green color blind to use alchemy or energy work to get over it?

 

Would tell someone that was born disliking spicy food that during energy work, they should just face the choice, to follow their impulse and avoid spicy food, or to go against that impulse and make themselves eat it?

 

Would you tell the stars to move for you? Would you tell the ocean tide not to come in while you are at the beach?

 

Would you try to teach a cat not to kill a mouse?

 

Telling someone is not the point. Tell the or not and it will still be the same until it isn't.

 

Liking things and living styles, emotions, desires...all conditional and can be changed. Look for the conditions present and they can be if chosen to.

 

All of these things are only conditional. If one can make the tides come in and out when they want, that is an outcome of cultivation, and good affinities with the Dragon Spirits of that ocean.

 

If one tells another "Hey, you are wrong change." And the other changes without returning to it, it was the right tie to change.

 

Conditional. A beings real nature is not homosexual. That is only an outcome of conditions. A persons living conditions are dictated by their karma. Until they change their karma, they are subject to it.

 

It has nothing to do about morality, but has everything to do with causes and outcomes.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited November 1, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Pero]

If the Vorlon planet killer fleet...

 

Babylon 5 was great!!! Have to re-watch it again sometime.

[Mandrake]

Wow, you really_totally_missed my point.

 

 

 

There is substance to these claims, my experience! You can choose to believe me or not. It's fine with me. I use to believe in all sorts of things from Santa to Yaweh to the Earth Goddess. I've moved on to what is tangible and real to all my senses.

 

Who are you or anyone really to judge what the spiritual capabilities are of any one soul in this life time?

 

If the Vorlon planet killer fleet or the Death Star came into orbit and blasted the earth into pieces instantly, we would all transcend our flesh real quick by the expedient of being involuntarily vibrated into high energy states. While our souls are moving about the rubble of Earth going wtf? We would get a good look at each other, genuine and naked and real.

 

Do you think the parameters, limitations, gifts or natural physical proclivities that a spirit being inherits when they are born into a corporeal existance someone how limits them from how strongly they can vibrate at the level of chi or shen?

My mother and I have the red haired gene. My personal bias is that I have noticed red headed men and women to be born both with a higher level of psychic sensitivity and power. They are often naturally drawn to spirituality from Third Order Franciscans to witchcraft.

 

Red heads tend to be more emo, more psychic, more sensitive and more psychotic and mentally ill than others. My mother, my grandmother and I all at once time heard voices, experienced profound depression, practiced self harm and can tell what you are thinking without you speaking. It runs in the gene.

 

Maybe I should only teach red heads because they are born already more psychically powerful than non redheads. Maybe I should espouse the idea that only red heads will ever achieve the highest levels of cultivation because they have such highly intense emotions and natural psi. Maybe teaching anyone else is a waste of my time.

 

I can make sweeping over generalizations based off my own experience and bias too. I can come to biased conclusions too. It's human, but also spiritually retarded

 

How do you guys like that rationale?

[SFJane]

Well, there's not really any more substance to these claims than political correctness. As if people need to be born with something in order to defend how they live.

 

M

 

I dealt with the pc issue, your first point

 

as for your second

 

Anyway, say that a various group - redhaired, blacks, mortadella-lovers or whatever, actually weren't as fit spiritually as the rest, would we be ready to acknowledge it? I don't believe so.

 

 

Wow, you really_totally_missed my point.

 

I don't think so. I think the question you asked is the spiritual development version of the James Watson debacle.

 

As you all know nobel prize winning genetics authority James Watson recently made statements to the effect of, Black people are genetically incapable of the high intelligence. He got a lot of crap for it too.

 

I am sure there are people that agree with Dr Watson as well as those that condemned him for his bias.

 

If I read you correctly, you are saying if the Lama Budda 3221th Patriarch Immortal authored a papal bull stating that gay people and or mortadella lovers and red heads were denied Heaven and further, were fundamentally and constitutionally unable to advance in this life or any other.

 

Would we be ready to acknowledge it?

 

Is this not what you meant?

 

The Far East has their own version of Xtian conservative fundies folks. Not everyone with an aura and a serene smile is right simply because someone else calls them enlightened.

 

If I am wrong....correct me!

Edited November 1, 2007 by SFJane

[fuego]

In reading this thread, I've seen a few things that disturb me somewhat. For instance, sweeping generalizations about whether or not entire groups of people are more "spiritually fit" than others. To classify an entire group of people in this regard merely attempts to fence those people into neat and tidy little boxes for classification. The problem with this approach is that to get those people to fit into those little boxes, one must ignore or trim off those people's other qualities.

 

When one really distills things down, what truly matters is the quality of self one brings to one's practice. No more, and no less. We each are here to grow, be hurt, have joy; to truly have the experience of living. With that in mind, I cannot see how anyone is less capable of "enlightenment " (which, personally, I think is an utterly nebulous and subjective term) than anyone else.

 

True, the things one does may harm another, or even yourself, but those actions are brought about by the quality of mind one brings to one's life anyway.

 

I'm still relatively new along my own path of awakening, enlightenment, or whatever you wish to call it. I'll say that upfront, and I'll eagerly admit that I've much more to learn, and much further to go. However, I don't think that whether or not one has red hair, whether one was born in the african bush, whether one is homosexual, whether one likes anal sex, or whether one was once another gender has really anything whatsoever to do with the quality of mind and being one brings to one's daily life.

 

If one does not have compassion, empathy, or understanding for themselves, they're not going to have it for anyone else, and that is what I do think is important.

 

EDIT: Er, "mind," not "mine."

Edited November 1, 2007 by fuego

[beancurdturtle]

One of the reasons I believe in Taoism is that Universal Consciousness is way too powerful to remotely give a shit about this discussion.

Or most any other discussion.

 

I honor and applaud your detachment. I have been amused myself.

 

In reading this thread, I've seen a few things that disturb me somewhat. For instance, sweeping generalizations about whether or not entire groups of people are more "spiritually fit" than others.

Ah! But there are those here who thrive on "my school is better than yours" uneupmanship.

 

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

Peace,

[fuego]

Ah! But there are those here who thrive on "my school is better than yours" uneupmanship.

 

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

Indeed - each has their own path, and each of us has different things that makes us truly happy.

 

I feel that the very fact that many of us here choose different schools of thought or feeling is a wonderful thing - how boring it would be if we all followed the same drum!

[mbanu]

Enlightenment and immortality are different.

 

Enlightenment is possible for all people regardless of orientation, given the right circumstances. In the process they may lose their sexuality, however. This is true for straights, gays, and everyone in between.

 

As to alchemy practices, the advice against men having sex with other men is a rule of thumb, having to do with controlling sexual energy. Sexual energy is difficult to control as is. Typically, the female is the moderating force. When two men cultivate, their sex drives can feed off one another, making cultivation a lot more challenging. Semen retention is made more difficult, and the energy that is built up, even if retained, tends to run on the hot side, which can easily cause toxic heat problems for people who aren't already experienced with dealing with that sort of thing.

 

Also, as stated, anal sex can cause energy leakage complications, although I'd be reluctant to say that these are insurmountable.

 

The general reasoning behind advice against male homosexuality isn't because it prevents cultivation, so much as it makes an already difficult thing more difficult than it could be... or at least so I've come to understand. If one is homosexual, one should feel free to practice alchemy, only knowing that it will be difficult from the start, without the easier slope upwards that is available to some other practicioners, at least while using the techniques which we currently have at our disposal.

Edited November 2, 2007 by mbanu

[Yoda]

wait, hold on, I'm still back at the penetrator part...

 

Out of pure academic interest, how does the reverse breathing go again?

 

thanks,

Yoda

[agharta]

 

 

these are insurmountable.

 

 

 

 

"mount".

[beancurdturtle]

"mount".

in sir mount.

 

how did I get dragged into this?

[sheng zhen]

If one is homosexual, one should feel free to practice alchemy, only knowing that it will be difficult from the start, without the easier slope upwards that is available to some other practicioners, at least while using the techniques which we currently have at our disposal.

 

What do you mean by the techniques "we" have at our disposal? Do you mean the techniques we have available in this world? Cause if you do I think you should try to open your eyes to how big this world really is, how many techniques we have here. Most of them arent even famous....many of them havent been written in books... And, not only is this world big, but when you are at the level where you can transcend this world, a whole new and even bigger world appears, with a lot more techniques to use.

 

I find this discussion very strange, but also pretty funny. Strange because here are people who meditate and feel the vastness of the universe every day, still thay think that it is limited if one is gay. Funny because my teacher is gay, and it certainly doesnt seem to have stopped his cultivation.

 

The limitations people put on their practices isnt more than just that, limitations they put on their practices. The universe, or tao, is not limited in any way. Only our perspective is.

[mbanu]

What do you mean by the techniques "we" have at our disposal? Do you mean the techniques we have available in this world? Cause if you do I think you should try to open your eyes to how big this world really is, how many techniques we have here. Most of them arent even famous....many of them havent been written in books... And, not only is this world big, but when you are at the level where you can transcend this world, a whole new and even bigger world appears, with a lot more techniques to use.

 

I find this discussion very strange, but also pretty funny. Strange because here are people who meditate and feel the vastness of the universe every day, still thay think that it is limited if one is gay. Funny because my teacher is gay, and it certainly doesnt seem to have stopped his cultivation.

 

The limitations people put on their practices isnt more than just that, limitations they put on their practices. The universe, or tao, is not limited in any way. Only our perspective is.

 

If you have access to such techniques, why not share them?

[sheng zhen]

If you have access to such techniques, why not share them?

 

It was not my point to say that I know all these methods. My point was that there are more methods available than you know of. I tried to say that there are techniques available that dont discriminate gay people or any other people. And these techniques are at our disposal. I dont quite remember what SFJane wrote, but my guess is that the water-method or whatever she does is such a technique. I also believe that Kunlun dosent discriminate gay people. There are many techniques, and they are at our disposal, right now, even for gay people

[gendao]

[Cameron]

Men should just cut our penises off and be done with it.

 

*totally joking*