Man Love

[Cameron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOn1htjSZic...FID=2&pc=45

[agharta]

That...was...funny.

[Pietro]

Ok I know this thread was about to disappear off the bottom and I wanted to let it but I felt bad not responding to you Pietro, I needed time to think about your questions

 

The answer Pietro is that no, I can not take a vow. I have in the past.

 

I can remember when I was super super Catholic and my whole life revolved around devotional practices I wanted to honor my mother and father as per commandments. I made vows to my folks that I would never swear, steal, lie, cheat, smoke, do drugs or have sex until I was married.

 

Know what?

 

I broke almost every single oath by the time I was 14. At 15 I broke the drugs and sex vow too.

 

There you have it. I have been a sinner in every way, even breaking vows to not break vows.

 

What I understand that you and Oolong are aiming at, is whether or not I think BKF copped out of being more magnanimous by adhering to his vows to Liu. I know the Liu's adoption of BKF was a Confucian ceremony.

 

I think you both have a point about respecting the man for sticking to his vows.

 

Like yourself Pietro, I too discovered that after exposure to the Water Method, all vows seem to do was make energy blockages that then need to be dissolved.

 

The coolest part was learning to forgive myself for breaking all those vows when I was under massive social, family and psychological pressure as a kid. I got over being guilty about being a vow breaker for 10 years.

 

If you had asked me ten years ago, I would have said that it is an admirable respectable thing that BKF obeys Liu. Now, I think it is more of a hindrance. I have sympathy and empathy for a vow breaker. I really do, I could not condemn BKF for voluntarily escaping from a spiritual straitjacket. I will not condemn him for failing to dissolve out of those bonds. I just do not agree with him that is all. That does not diminish my respect for the man in the slightest. We all move uneasily in our restraints in life.

 

Nevertheless, just as quick as I am to say I that I follow BKF's teachings as best I can, I also do not agree with him on everything. Call me a Kumar Heretic or irreverent but I make no pretense on this subject and I will teach anyone that wants to learn how to do these things if they ask me.

 

Hello Jane,

thank you very much for your thoughtful answer.

I am sorry that there are not many people in this discussion board who are openly practicing and discussion Bruce's water method, and I find very interesting how your perception of what happens taking a vow, blockage wise, echoes mine. I hope you stick around, so I can keep on reading you and discussion with you.

 

Pietro

 

I can remember when I was super super Catholic and my whole life revolved around devotional practices

 

Funny how people can change their religion but hardly the way they approach their religion.

[Fears]

Juicy Thread.

I am thankful for the Tao in assiting me to see this clearly.

 

Being a gay black women, my self practices the Tao for the aid of my self, My chi cleansing, etc..

Since I spend some much Chi on this - Shen and jing do not recover to "Orig. Spriit"

Again Ch i cutlivation practice is done, and I use the healing arts to address energy cultivation with client work.

By essence of being a Tao healer, one cannot attain immortality. This is similiar to the Buddah killing the army to save the karmic debts of other warriors.

 

Aspiring to sage is really not possible, because all aspirationss bring you to wonderous Tao where Lila resides, and I hope for a graceful landing. I can relax into my being, and just be. This is do my Self.

 

Joy of Joys - I can always practice and absorb the moon energy. Hanuman Chalisa anyone?

 

Oh, and people can quote scholars and "experts" - but only the individual can tell you what it like for them. That is the only true way to know. THis is a great opportunity to be a witness to compassion. Listen, take a minute to breath and listen. Can you witness compassion as it presents right now - Amazing. Compassion for the self by the Self.

[Wayfarer64]

This is a very interesting topic.

 

For me there is no one way for us all to be, only our own one way to be... -which is to be that which we can recognize as our best of selves as much we can manage.

 

The will to transcend our lower animal natures is strong for most cultivators and spiritual seekers. For some, sex can be a pathway to spiritual awakening and a shared cosmic/spiritual realization. Tantric and other aspects of spirituality use the force of sexuality to transform and transcend. I have always found sex with women to be an exceptionally wholesome and fullfilling aspect of my spiritual life.

 

My only experience with homosexuality was being gang-raped by neo-nazis-(the Stanton-Pagones KKK cell famous for attacking Tawana Brawley)...

That both actual incidents were covered-up by the "powers that be" and good men were discredited (Maddox in particular) is a great travesty and sad commentary on our society and legal system... Those men were/are homophobic homosexuals -who have a truely demented and evil aspect to their personalities and have no loving/caring/nurturing aspect to their sexuality...For such evil beings sex is about power not love.

 

I have been able to transcend the attack and have done what I was able to support those who tried to expose those miscreants. I do not hold their mis-guided homosexuality to blame, only that which twisted them into sadists instead of honest "gay" men... It was their pain and inner anguish which drives them to hate and attack, not their gayness...I believe this is the case with most hate groups, nazis in particular.

 

So I see it as the fighting of ones' true inner nature that creates evil miscreants not their true inner nature -(unless they have some sort of sociopathic/chromasome problem) etc...

 

Homosexuality is natural for some, repugnant for others. Cultivation of ones' true inner spirit is a matter of transcending all "self" related issues and becoming one with that which is beyond self or personality or that which dies... It is the eternal within us that seekers seek... if anal sex is a step in that direction for someone -who am I to ask if it is a true path?

 

Forcing any viewpoint on others is the sin for me... acts of cowardice and bullying are reprehensible and degrades all concerned.

Conversly, it is the loving, open expression of the inner self shared in erotic love that counts (whatever that may be agreed to) when reaching for higher levels of awareness and loving embrace etc...Whoever that may be with, consentual love is never a bad thing... and that may not even need any sexual componant...

[iadnon]

Wow, this is my second "gay" message in this forum tonight.

 

First off, it's interesting to see so many hets talking about gay issues. Anyway, I've just heard theories of all kinds and styles, when the only thing that counts is astral sight. Only when you have that ability, thanks to the awakening of the third eye, you'll be able to "see" directly what the heck is going on inside that anus; always, in energy terms. If you don't have the ability, you are limited to believe in books and others.

 

Some people has talked about "natural" or "unnatural" things a man should do when fucking. Well, nipples are not designed to be sucked and give pleasure, but they do. Prostate is not designed to provoke you an amazing orgasm, but it does. Mother Nature is not to be contaminated by humans, and we do. Natural? Unnatural? Where's the handbook, and who wrote it? By the way, it's far easier to contain semen contracting the PC muscle when having a prostate provoked orgasm.

 

"Anal sex in any form with anyone is not proper at all for one's health, and cultivation." What are the facts? Is someone to explain that? Or is that just another gratuitous and pompous phrase? Are tits designed to do a "cubana"? Are lips designed to kiss? Are feet designed to be sucked?... I've started to deduce that, here, many people talk much but experience nothing.

 

About body polarity, I remember that Franz Bardon published a book where all those aspects where explained. Anyway, Jane, you hit the nail in the head. It's true that you must surrender, completely, when being fucked. When you are able to achieve such great statement, you feel all moving in its path. It's also true that penis' energy can be absorbed through the anus/rectum, to redirect through the spine, in the orbit. Not many people are able to realize that fact, J. Once more, and as it's seen in others "iluminated"'s messages, it's easier to talk indiscriminately, than to experience such things

 

Just to end up. I found a book where the author talked about gay people. In his words, gays and straights, men and women, we all have different energy circuitry patterns, giving 4 main patterns. In hets, those patterns are settled down with the first energy boost from a contrary counterpart, ie, when the first sex experience. In gays/lesbians that doesn't happen, and the original energy pattern is kept. The advantage of having a not settled down pattern, and always in his words, is to be able to "connect" with higher energies. That happens with virgin hets, and gays/les. That's why celibacy is encouraged in order to be a priests, for example. If you are interested in the book: "inner guide meditation" by Edwin Steinbrecher.

 

A last word. I feel like a man. I'm happy with my penis, my body, and so; and I'm happy fucking with my partner, who he's a man, also. But when I do my meditation routine, and I interact with my inner world's archetypes, I've had, many times, sexual relationships with them (both men, women, mystical animals or whatever). In a meditation you can do whatever you imagine. You can also change your sex, and function in the opposite gender. Doing that, I've felt strong energy pulses inside my muladara. I mean, when I'm being fucked as a female in a meditation, my male body reacts accordingly, but adapting the experience to my male body. All of that makes me be "plastic", and charged with many energy sources.

 

Period. Time to go to the bed. It's 0.49am. Bye, het folks!

[8trigrammer]

For SFJane:

 

First off, what did you mean by Kleinfelter?

 

Onward,

 

As someone who's been to a couple of BKF's retreats and has read his books, your commentary was fascinating to me. I applaud your openness in talking about your own experiences as well.

 

Some food for thought: When grandmaster Lui was teaching Bruce, he was in his late 80's. Although he himself didn't engage in any explorative sex (or whatever you wanna call it), let alone much plain vanilla sex, except for a couple of times, is it possible that in his travels/studies with all his different teachers and temples and what have you, that he may have encountered people who were more like yourself in terms of sexual exploration?

 

If he did, maybe he observed their sexual practices as detrimental to the water method in the long term. Also, being that he had been a practicing taoist for decades, is it possible that he gained insights on this subject which you may have not yet discovered? In other words - 30 years from now you may look back on the sex you've had and find that it hindered your spiritual progress (for lack of a better term..). Then again - you may look back and find that it put you way ahead of people who were not as sexually eclectic - far be it from me to know that, it's just food for thought.

 

I guess my main point there is that I wonder what the long term affects of male to male intercourse over, let's say, a 30-40 year time period is in relation to Taoist practices/internal alchemy/energetics etc..

 

I realize that you and some others have mentioned that there are ways for males to have homosexual sex in a such a way that is not harmful, or even beneficial, energetically speaking from a Taoist perspective. If this is true, then where did you learn about these practices and why wouldn't a man like grandmaster Lui have known about them? Surely the Taoists must have experimented over the centuries and kept a record of these kinds of things..

 

Anyways, I would love to hear your thoughts/ideas.

Edited January 28, 2008 by 8trigrammer

[Chanwu]

Being homosexual doesn't mean one can not cultivate. They will only get so far, and when so far gets reached, it does matter.

 

Despite what Michael Winn says, there was never a homosexual immortal... lol that's just silly.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

 

To think that a yang/yang relationship would cause problems is just silly. A relationship doesn't break your balance, the balance is within, not from something external.

 

As some said in this thread - I believe homosexual men have it easier with accepting their feminine/gentle side and create a balance.

 

To say one would be "screwed" when it comes to a certain degree of cultivation because of being homosexual would be like saying that just because you have too many males at your workplace you will have a yang imbalance.

 

Or just because you have too many female friends you have a yin imbalance.

 

A male have access to both yin and yang, it's not limited by such limited thinking as thinking in terms of "cock + cock = yangoverload"!

[gendao]

I guess my main point there is that I wonder what the long term affects of male to male intercourse over, let's say, a 30-40 year time period is in relation to Taoist practices/internal alchemy/energetics etc..

Well, purely from a physical standpoint - habitual anal sex leaks to a loosened sphincter and anal leakage in the long run...

[Chanwu]

Yeah, because gay men only have anal sex until their anuses explode? Come on :-)

 

Some don't even like anal sex, how come you are so fixated with anal sex when it's two guys?

 

Heterosexuals don't have anal sex? Come on, one of my girlfriends love anal sex with her guy ;-)

[Pietro]

...Come on, one of my girlfriends love anal sex with her guy ;-)

Hey, who many gf have you got? How many guys does she has.

That's the way to go!

Free love, and sex for all.

[Chanwu]

If man loving leads to imbalance, then people in celibacy can't attain a higher level of "cultivation" either because that implies that sex is needed for cultivation - that is, heterosexual sex is needed for cultivation.

 

Yin and yang is in abundance for us all to balance.

 

To all who say otherwise - like a vulcan I say: your logic is flawed ;-)