Neidan vs Qigong

[WilliamChan]

Hello.  I am new to this forum.  My English is not good so please forgive if I have not made myself clear.  I am here to share about my experience and hope to exchange ideas with you. 

 

I am a Chinese living in Hong Kong.  Very fascinated at Neidan since 14 years old, and have been searching for many, many methods for long.  There were a very peak development of Qigong in the 60's in China, many different methods have popped up (I personally have kept and read nearly +600 Qigong books, mostly ebooks).  Most of them are neo-Qi gong (created recently, and inferior), with so many unnatural "visualizations", which does not do real good to body and mind.  Some Qi gong are good, they have roots in Taoism, Chinese Medicine or Sholin, could do a lot good to health, or produce some special little powers, (and few might be able realize the natural mind too); they also talk about micro orbit, or macro orbit, but still too quite far away from the true Neidan.

 

Many claiming themselves Neidan, but is actually advanced Qigong.  Though if practiced very carefully, they still do much good to the body and mind.  Fortunately I have learnt from a few good masters (both Qigong and Neidan), and also have read manuals written by an extremely experienced and reliable Neidan master (at the same time, researcher with western mind), these make me finally understand many of the ancient texts.  Many people have tried to use Qigong to explain Neidan text, which could be false assumption.  There are some main differences between them both.

 

Though having known these reliable and reasonable ancient methods after years of search, I am mostly practicing Yoga now, since I think the real Neidan is relatively more difficult to achieve the final goal, compared to Yoga, especially for a person with busy lifestyle like me (I am just lazy, with reasonable effort it is still achievable nowadays).  But due to my interest and its similarity with Yoga, I still study books of it even now.  Please do not misunderstand that I am trying to claim anything, I am not any master at all, but just want to share!!!

 

Below I will share some of my knowledge, which might not be correct.  Please discuss together.

 

1. Development of Chi

 

Qigong:

Using heavy breath method to activate the heat in Dan Tian

Heat is the signal of effectiveness

Tries to use the heat to go into micro orbit

 

Neidan:

Thinks that real Yang only comes from Yin, and therefore does not recognize shallow heat

Heat that exists in the body is mostly fake Yang, which could not be the medicine for further development, and could not finally become Neidan

The development of Fake Yang is going to increase more and more heat, and the possibility of it is not high

There are some methods of obtaining real Yang:

Working on meditation and obtaining an extremely quiet mind; using this quiet mind to slightly focus on Dantian.  Do not use any force, or you will not be able to obtain Yin, where Yang comes out from it.  

Second method, for less calm person, is to visualize Chi coming down below ground and stay some while, and when the Yin goes into extreme, it will naturally come up which becomes real Yang.

Above is only a simplified and incomplete version.  Also, there are more and more methods.  The real principle is to first focus on Yin, until real Yang comes.

 

Purpose of Micro Orbit / Macro Orbit

 

Qigong

- Clear obstacles inside it to obtain health

- And slowly clear all other energy paths (macro orbit)

- simplify the whole process into only clearing energy paths, without concerning about what is being transported in the paths, which is the focus of Neidan

 

Neidan

- Clear obstacles inside it to free the channel for producing medicine for Neidan

- Heat (real yang) coming up to become extreme, reaching the brain and stay for a while, until the brain makes it come real Yin and coming down.  This process goes on to keep refining and refining the medicine.

- But heat is still only the beginning stage and it is not even called medicine.  The refining process will gradually turn the real Yang into something else "original essence" (??? I do not know how to translate in English), which is the real medicine

- Until refined real yang comes the sex organs will have special reaction and using special methods to suck it the the brain and refine again (need to have a delightful and clean mind when you decide to suck, or if you have negative thinking, the materials will become inferior, or become after-birth)

- Refine until you have special signals which proves the "original essence" (medicine) has come, for example, huge ecstasy moving all over the body, skin becomes to breathe, seeing smoke, seems like drunk, bliss, etc. 

- Do "Wood and Gold Orbit" (left and right in the body) to further refine it in each session 

- Slightly pay attention at it after practice in each practice session, focused on it for a while, to make the Spirit and the Original Essence merged together

- When this goes on, maybe 300 rounds traditionally, there will be signals that the Big Medicine has come.  You will see three times with golden lights, eye shining eye golden lights, hear winds, kidney feels like being burnt etc.  It takes 7 days in absolute still state to absorb the big medicine.

- ONLY UNTIL THEN, you are in the macro - orbit stage.  So, macro - orbit stage does not mean anything about opening channels.  It is a stage to describe the Big medicine has come and you could really start to build Neidan in the next coming months, or years.

- Also, those channels other than the front and the back channel will be opened too.  The 12 Channels will be opened through normal chi exercises that you could find in youtube, and during you circulate energy in micro-orbit you will spread the energy inside it too.  And about the other 6 special channels (8 in total, which includes the front and the back channels) will be opened in visualization exercises too (yes, many qigong has it and called in macro-orbit).  The reason to open 6 channels is because if it does not open, the chi in your body will still have yin, and cannot be pure yang at the end.  So it is to make sure Yang gradually develops in the body as pure as it could.

- I am not sure about the further practice so I do not write in here.

 

All in all, Traditional Neidan is to develop and refine the yang and yin and make it gradually become special materials that is extremely good for body at first, and extend original life period secondly (normal qigong could only let your body function better, make you live better, but since it doesnt produce "original essence" and so our designed life span could not be expanded, theoretically; only neidan do), and to return to Tao ultimately.  

 

However, the above system of Neidan mentioned is the development over many centuries and finally becoming systematic that suits nearly everybody.  It is not the most ancient one I believe, but based on the ancient method to develop things that suit people at their time.  Also, if our moral and spirit is very pure and good, it is said that we could skip all the energy part, and directly realizing / staying close to Tao, which could help finish all the above process.  Therefore, my shallow and personal opinion is, even Qigong has become quite different to Neidan, if people could really become very calm and mindless and moral, they could still refine the Yang and Yin and reach the same goal.  The specific procedure of the above Neidan, I believe, is to suit people of different levels and therefore becoming very complete and detailed.  There is example in Tai wan, who has written books about his experience.  He practices normal Qigong (advanced one, which includes *AUTO* micro-orbit) but has all the scenario described in the ancient text  (but this does not happening to his classmates).  He also agrees and says the most important thing is moral and pure mind.

 

Please discuss together and exchange ideas, especially if you have found something incorrect in here, please point it out to have a bigger picture.

 

Is anyone practicing Neidan?  Has anyone experienced similar things, no matter what you are practicing?  

 

Thank you so much

 

[Taoist Texts]

 if people could really become very calm and mindless and moral,

i donno about moral and calm, but on mindless they do a bang up job

[gendao]

Hello.  I am new to this forum.  My English is not good so please forgive if I have not made myself clear.  I am here to share about my experience and hope to exchange ideas with you. 

 

I am a Chinese living in Hong Kong.  Very fascinated at Neidan since 14 years old, and have been searching for many, many methods for long.  There were a very peak development of Qigong in the 60's in China, many different methods have popped up (I personally have kept and read nearly +600 Qigong books, mostly ebooks).  Most of them are neo-Qi gong (created recently, and inferior), with so many unnatural "visualizations", which does not do real good to body and mind.  Some Qi gong are good, they have roots in Taoism, Chinese Medicine or Sholin, could do a lot good to health, or produce some special little powers, (and few might be able realize the natural mind too); they also talk about micro orbit, or macro orbit, but still too quite far away from the true Neidan.

 

Many claiming themselves Neidan, but is actually advanced Qigong.  Though if practiced very carefully, they still do much good to the body and mind.  Fortunately I have learnt from a few good masters (both Qigong and Neidan), and also have read manuals written by an extremely experienced and reliable Neidan master (at the same time, researcher with western mind), these make me finally understand many of the ancient texts.  Many people have tried to use Qigong to explain Neidan text, which could be false assumption.  There are some main differences between them both.

 

Though having known these reliable and reasonable ancient methods after years of search, I am mostly practicing Yoga now, since I think the real Neidan is relatively more difficult to achieve the final goal, compared to Yoga, especially for a person with busy lifestyle like me (I am just lazy, with reasonable effort it is still achievable nowadays).  But due to my interest and its similarity with Yoga, I still study books of it even now.  Please do not misunderstand that I am trying to claim anything, I am not any master at all, but just want to share!!!

 

Below I will share some of my knowledge, which might not be correct.  Please discuss together.

 

1. Development of Chi

 

Qigong:

Using heavy breath method to activate the heat in Dan Tian

Heat is the signal of effectiveness

Tries to use the heat to go into micro orbit

 

Neidan:

Thinks that real Yang only comes from Yin, and therefore does not recognize shallow heat

Heat that exists in the body is mostly fake Yang, which could not be the medicine for further development, and could not finally become Neidan

The development of Fake Yang is going to increase more and more heat, and the possibility of it is not high

There are some methods of obtaining real Yang:

Working on meditation and obtaining an extremely quiet mind; using this quiet mind to slightly focus on Dantian.  Do not use any force, or you will not be able to obtain Yin, where Yang comes out from it.  

Second method, for less calm person, is to visualize Chi coming down below ground and stay some while, and when the Yin goes into extreme, it will naturally come up which becomes real Yang.

Above is only a simplified and incomplete version.  Also, there are more and more methods.  The real principle is to first focus on Yin, until real Yang comes.

 

Purpose of Micro Orbit / Macro Orbit

 

Qigong

- Clear obstacles inside it to obtain health

- And slowly clear all other energy paths (macro orbit)

- simplify the whole process into only clearing energy paths, without concerning about what is being transported in the paths, which is the focus of Neidan

 

Neidan

- Clear obstacles inside it to free the channel for producing medicine for Neidan

- Heat (real yang) coming up to become extreme, reaching the brain and stay for a while, until the brain makes it come real Yin and coming down.  This process goes on to keep refining and refining the medicine.

- But heat is still only the beginning stage and it is not even called medicine.  The refining process will gradually turn the real Yang into something else "original essence" (??? I do not know how to translate in English), which is the real medicine

- Until refined real yang comes the sex organs will have special reaction and using special methods to suck it the the brain and refine again (need to have a delightful and clean mind when you decide to suck, or if you have negative thinking, the materials will become inferior, or become after-birth)

- Refine until you have special signals which proves the "original essence" (medicine) has come, for example, huge ecstasy moving all over the body, skin becomes to breathe, seeing smoke, seems like drunk, bliss, etc. 

- Do "Wood and Gold Orbit" (left and right in the body) to further refine it in each session 

- Slightly pay attention at it after practice in each practice session, focused on it for a while, to make the Spirit and the Original Essence merged together

- When this goes on, maybe 300 rounds traditionally, there will be signals that the Big Medicine has come.  You will see three times with golden lights, eye shining eye golden lights, hear winds, kidney feels like being burnt etc.  It takes 7 days in absolute still state to absorb the big medicine.

- ONLY UNTIL THEN, you are in the macro - orbit stage.  So, macro - orbit stage does not mean anything about opening channels.  It is a stage to describe the Big medicine has come and you could really start to build Neidan in the next coming months, or years.

- Also, those channels other than the front and the back channel will be opened too.  The 12 Channels will be opened through normal chi exercises that you could find in youtube, and during you circulate energy in micro-orbit you will spread the energy inside it too.  And about the other 6 special channels (8 in total, which includes the front and the back channels) will be opened in visualization exercises too (yes, many qigong has it and called in macro-orbit).  The reason to open 6 channels is because if it does not open, the chi in your body will still have yin, and cannot be pure yang at the end.  So it is to make sure Yang gradually develops in the body as pure as it could.

- I am not sure about the further practice so I do not write in here.

 

All in all, Traditional Neidan is to develop and refine the yang and yin and make it gradually become special materials that is extremely good for body at first, and extend original life period secondly (normal qigong could only let your body function better, make you live better, but since it doesnt produce "original essence" and so our designed life span could not be expanded, theoretically; only neidan do), and to return to Tao ultimately.  

 

However, the above system of Neidan mentioned is the development over many centuries and finally becoming systematic that suits nearly everybody.  It is not the most ancient one I believe, but based on the ancient method to develop things that suit people at their time.  Also, if our moral and spirit is very pure and good, it is said that we could skip all the energy part, and directly realizing / staying close to Tao, which could help finish all the above process.  Therefore, my shallow and personal opinion is, even Qigong has become quite different to Neidan, if people could really become very calm and mindless and moral, they could still refine the Yang and Yin and reach the same goal.  The specific procedure of the above Neidan, I believe, is to suit people of different levels and therefore becoming very complete and detailed.  There is example in Tai wan, who has written books about his experience.  He practices normal Qigong (advanced one, which includes *AUTO* micro-orbit) but has all the scenario described in the ancient text  (but this does not happening to his classmates).  He also agrees and says the most important thing is moral and pure mind.

 

Please discuss together and exchange ideas, especially if you have found something incorrect in here, please point it out to have a bigger picture.

 

Is anyone practicing Neidan?  Has anyone experienced similar things, no matter what you are practicing?  

 

Thank you so much

Welcome and fantastic first post!  Probably more authentic info just in here than I've read on this board over the last many years!  Shows what happens when you drink closer to the source!

 

And I would also agree that active "Yang" yoga, stretching, and bodywork are probably required as a foundational prerequisite in order to be able to attain the "great Yin stillness" - from which True Yang then arises...  Because if your bodymind is full of chronic tension, emotional turmoil, and qi blockages, then how can you genuinely meditate in spacetimeless samadhi?

[WilliamChan]

Sorry what do you mean by "bang up" job?  My English is not good.

 

To be specific, about calm, mindless, etc.  There are different levels.  Just like the development of Chi, which could be categorized into different level.

 

Happy, delight, such kind of emotion is the first stage.  Second stage is your connection with the Universe, or your care about the world, it will turn your Chi into a more refined level.  Third level is emptiness, or completely relaxed state.  These stages are the foundation of producing real Yang.  But it is just approximate classification.

 

According to text, when the real Yang has reached your Head, it is very easy to create illusion and other problems.  And so it is vital to be well trained in maintaining such calm states, so as to prevent dangers.

 

Also, I am reading the other threads and discovered about Kunlun.  There were many problems happened in China when it was popular.  So many qigong masters have actually forbid it.  But under guidance of experienced it could produce very significant results in short time.  However, since it is a "releasing" (yin) qigong, instead of "producing" (yang) qigong, it is NOT suitable for long term practices.  

 

Traditionally, these types of qigong is only a very small part and for first stage release of over-heat energy, or to cure big disease in short period of time.  So people will feel very good at the begining.  The stimulating principle in such practice only make the Chi lose more and more eventually.  Perhaps some people will slowly go into deeper and calmer meditation and therefore become exceptional case.  But still, it cannot produce much good.

 

A very famous and experienced Kunlun-like master in Tai wan got cancer (healed by diet and sports at last) and concluded that qigong can just help with general health, but modern health concept is still essential.  I do not agree because if one applies good qigong or neidan it will be very good to health and prevent many diseases.  Probably its because of the qigong he is practicing.

[Taoist Texts]

Sorry what do you mean by "bang up" job?  My English is not good.

 

It means 'a good job'. Your english is fine. So, you are a neidan entusiast which is great. What is the purpose of neidan?

[WilliamChan]

Welcome and fantastic first post!  Probably more authentic info just in here than I've read on this board over the last many years!  Shows what happens when you drink closer to the source!

 

And I would also agree that active "Yang" yoga, stretching, and bodywork are probably required as a foundational prerequisite in order to be able to attain the "great Yin stillness" - from which True Yang then arises...  Because if your bodymind is full of chronic tension, emotional turmoil, and qi blockages, then how can you genuinely meditate in spacetimeless samadhi?

 

Thank you so much.  Indeed even in China, many people are misled and many qigong masters make big money by giving some simple methods, also claiming about magical effect that never happen.  Even if they have the real complete methods (rarely), most of them will just disclose a little.  Some are for good reason.  But some are for ego, I believe.  I think none of us could have claim on these holy methods.  It is supposed to be serving the well being of all people.  Qigong or neidan should not be a way to make big money too.  If here in China there are many false information, I am worried about the western world too.  I am not sure how people in western tell who is the experienced practitioner.  Anyway, I hope to share as much as I could in here.  

 

Also, it is a very deep insight about the "yang" yoga.  I agree too.  And indeed some masters suggest to give "pause" for 2, 3 seconds (or probably breath retention) at the end of each movement.  So the practitioner can go back to yin again in that 2, 3 seconds, and when he/she moves, the movement (yang) comes from yin.  which produces truly beneficial yang chi. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by WilliamChan

[WilliamChan]

It means 'a good job'. Your english is fine. So, you are a neidan entusiast which is great. What is the purpose of neidan?

 

I think there are different stages of pursue.  In very early time many pursue to be physically immortal.

And in later time it focuses more on the immortality of the Soul, which is to abide with Tao.

The chi or internal alchemy is all for going back to Tai Chi (it happens when the real Yang goes up reach the real Yin as mentioned above, the big medicine, and the body will be in complete still stage for 7 days, according to text),

and gradually return to Tao.  Beyond time and space.

[Taoist Texts]

I think there are different stages of pursue.  In very early time many pursue to be physically immortal.

And in later time it focuses more on the immortality of the Soul, which is to abide with Tao.

The chi or internal alchemy is all for going back to Tai Chi (it happens when the real Yang goes up reach the real Yin as mentioned above, the big medicine, and the body will be in complete still stage for 7 days, according to text),

and gradually return to Tao.  Beyond time and space.

very good, i totally agree. so you are saying every one and any one can do it?

[gendao]

Sorry what do you mean by "bang up" job? My English is not good.

 

To be specific, about calm, mindless, etc. There are different levels. Just like the development of Chi, which could be categorized into different level.

 

Happy, delight, such kind of emotion is the first stage. Second stage is your connection with the Universe, or your care about the world, it will turn your Chi into a more refined level. Third level is emptiness, or completely relaxed state. These stages are the foundation of producing real Yang. But it is just approximate classification.

 

According to text, when the real Yang has reached your Head, it is very easy to create illusion and other problems. And so it is vital to be well trained in maintaining such calm states, so as to prevent dangers.

 

Also, I am reading the other threads and discovered about Kunlun. There were many problems happened in China when it was popular. So many qigong masters have actually forbid it. But under guidance of experienced it could produce very significant results in short time. However, since it is a "releasing" (yin) qigong, instead of "producing" (yang) qigong, it is NOT suitable for long term practices.

 

Traditionally, these types of qigong is only a very small part and for first stage release of over-heat energy, or to cure big disease in short period of time. So people will feel very good at the begining. The stimulating principle in such practice only make the Chi lose more and more eventually. Perhaps some people will slowly go into deeper and calmer meditation and therefore become exceptional case. But still, it cannot produce much good.

 

A very famous and experienced Kunlun-like master in Tai wan got cancer (healed by diet and sports at last) and concluded that qigong can just help with general health, but modern health concept is still essential. I do not agree because if one applies good qigong or neidan it will be very good to health and prevent many diseases. Probably its because of the qigong he is practicing.

Interesting, I never knew "Kunlun" (yigong) was popular in China?

Too bad you weren't here on the boards during the height of its craze here - as you could have added some interesting context...

I do feel like it definitely opened my eyes and gave me a great spiritual springboard (catapult?), and there's no question that it was IMMENSELY powerful to begin with! But I gradually discontinued it after I no longer felt I was getting effects from it - and it likely had released a lot of my excessive blockages. So maybe I intuitively ended up using it the way it was supposed to be used? Or maybe it would have led me even further had I continued, who knows?

But afterwards, I organically moved on to other self-healing practices, plus some other false starts..

Currently, I've continued going back to the drawing board and practice mostly psychoanalysis & active bodywork now - like you.

I still hope to practice genuine neidan one day, but realize how I have a lot of remedial training to finish first before I am even ready for that!

 

It's like it takes Yang to attain Yin to attain True Yang, lol!

Edited September 9, 2015 by gendao

[WilliamChan]

very good, i totally agree. so you are saying every one and any one can do it?

 

Yes.  But if you want to go to that far through real Neidan, the system will become a little complex, since it has more uncertainties compared to other systems (imagine you are doing cooking, you have to be aware of many things like the fire, the water, the ingredients, etc., if the fire heats up too much, the egg will be spoiled...... while in other practices, the path seems to be more regular).  Please know that it is just my personal opinion and assumption, as I am not successor in any path.

 

But some might have a very huge passion in Chinese culture and its spiritual practice, and will only want to find out the true Neidan; if so, It would be good if you could read Chinese so that I could suggest you some very reliable and practical sources (or else, I could only translate a little basic concept in here for interest). 

 

Another Chinese way, I think, is to practice advanced Qigong that gives you safe AUTOMATIC micro-orbit.  It is inferior compared to the highest Neidan but I think it might succeed too, though the result will be subtly different.

 

Another way is to do Tai Chi mindlessly.  Abide in the stillness.  It will do too.  I have a master has enlightening experience in it.  He says the world has completely changed after that.  He can do some very special performance too......  

 

I am not enlightened.  But these are the experiences, ideas that I have learned from people or read throughout the years.

[WilliamChan]

Interesting, I never knew "Kunlun" (yigong) was popular in China?

Too bad you weren't here on the boards during the height of its craze here - as you could have added some interesting context...

I do feel like it definitely opened my eyes and gave me a great spiritual springboard (catapult?), and there's no question that it was IMMENSELY powerful to begin with! But I gradually discontinued it after I no longer felt I was getting effects from it - and it likely had released a lot of my excessive blockages. So maybe I intuitively ended up using it the way it was supposed to be used? Or maybe it would have led me even further had I continued, who knows?

But afterwards, I organically moved on to other self-healing practices, plus some other false starts..

Currently, I've continued going back to the drawing board and practice mostly psychoanalysis & active bodywork now - like you.

I still hope to practice genuine neidan one day, but realize how I have a lot of remedial training to finish first before I am even ready for that!

 

It's like it takes Yang to attain Yin to attain True Yang, lol!

 

Kunlun was not popular in China.  But much prior to Kunlun there are many same type of Qigong popped up in China and in Taiwan.  Neidan does not talk about Spirits at all, since they think they control their own life.  There is no ritual, blessings, or things like that (originally).  But since I have been practicing Chinese mystics for years too, I want to make some "superstitious" idea, ignore it if you feel it is non-sense (it is not an important point).  Kunlun-like practices could be dangerous when it comes to spirits/ghost.  If you could read Chinese just look at how notorious such kind of practices are in Taiwan, that some people got haunted, crazy, eventually.  I believe it does really happen in Taiwan, but it could be due to cultural reason.  You attract what you think.  Taiwanese are really into these magical things, and if Kunlun-like practices has opened up their paths, that such things might take place to resonate what they want.  Or, maybe it is just sub-consciousness stuff brought up under an emotional triggering atmosphere, which leads to emotional imbalance.  Anyway, if a healthy mind person who does not think of these things, it is not a problem.  I hope in Kunlun they dont talk about spirits or magic.... If they do, it is dangerous.

 

May I know why do you want to learn Neidan?  I wanted to learn it suddenly when I was 14.  When I read the sutra and the pictures of it I just felt I am home.  This simple feeling keeps me pursuing until now.  Also, Neidan is for everyone.  There are preparatory but advanced techniques.  I could introduce some to you if you really want to practice, cuz it takes a lot of time to translate the many words to ensure safe practice.  But I am just a student like you to help in some translations only, who has no real experience.

 

Thank you so much for your kind reply  Yes, stay Yin first

[WilliamChan]

One more point I would like to make is, true Neidan focuses on absorbing and refining.  The Chi in the body is becoming more and more weightless and refined.  It is kept deep inside the body like a very refined materials, which gives you ecstasy feelings.  So high quality Chi will not stimulate and move your body like this.  If so, those Chi is still on the outer surface in the body so that it can stimulates body movements. (according to some masters, sometimes Neidan practitioners will activate these automatic movement too, but definitely not for long).

 

On the other hand, in some practices, Chi will make you feel hot and feel like it is surrounding your body.  In short period of time people feel healthier, but weaker in long term.  Since these could be fake Yang, keep becoming hotter and hotter, that will burn the Yin in your body and make you feel thirsty always.

[Taoist Texts]

Yes.  ,,,,,(or else, I could only translate a little basic concept in here for interest). 

 

 

 

that would be wonderful please translate this

 

学者如牛毛，达者如麟角

 

thank you

[gendao]

Kunlun was not popular in China.  But much prior to Kunlun there are many same type of Qigong popped up in China and in Taiwan.  Neidan does not talk about Spirits at all, since they think they control their own life.  There is no ritual, blessings, or things like that (originally).  But since I have been practicing Chinese mystics for years too, I want to make some "superstitious" idea, ignore it if you feel it is non-sense (it is not an important point).  Kunlun-like practices could be dangerous when it comes to spirits/ghost.  If you could read Chinese just look at how notorious such kind of practices are in Taiwan, that some people got haunted, crazy, eventually.  I believe it does really happen in Taiwan, but it could be due to cultural reason.  You attract what you think.  Taiwanese are really into these magical things, and if Kunlun-like practices has opened up their paths, that such things might take place to resonate what they want.  Or, maybe it is just sub-consciousness stuff brought up under an emotional triggering atmosphere, which leads to emotional imbalance.  Anyway, if a healthy mind person who does not think of these things, it is not a problem.  I hope in Kunlun they dont talk about spirits or magic.... If they do, it is dangerous.

No, Kunlun was a simple self-practice that didn't invoke spirits or magic.  However, it did seem to push whatever latent fears or other negative dross lurking in your subconscious up into your manifest conscious awareness.  So, if you feared entities, you might get haunted by them, etc.  But more often, it could initiate physical detoxing that would require healing.

 

I had some incredible experiences with it and still feel like I benefited immensely from it.  Kriyas (automatic outer body movements) were just the tame norm then, lol.  But, I was also fortunate to have some good outside healing resources and sufficient grounding to be able to handle whatever was stirred up.  And those who didn't, ran into problems...

May I know why do you want to learn Neidan?  I wanted to learn it suddenly when I was 14.  When I read the sutra and the pictures of it I just felt I am home.  This simple feeling keeps me pursuing until now.  Also, Neidan is for everyone.  There are preparatory but advanced techniques.  I could introduce some to you if you really want to practice, cuz it takes a lot of time to translate the many words to ensure safe practice.  But I am just a student like you to help in some translations only, who has no real experience.

 

Thank you so much for your kind reply  Yes, stay Yin first

I've always wondered "why?" and as Bruce Lee said, "We must discover the cause of our own ignorance."  Well, I wanted solutions to life's problems and Daoism appealed to me due to its deeply spiritual, philosophically esoteric, and yet highly practical and applicable nature.  And I was inspired by genuinely experiencing qi just as it had always traditionally been described for the first time.

 

So, the ancient mythology...was actually literally (and not "metaphorically") TRUE?!

 

Anyhow, so yes, I would love to learn more of whatever you have to share! /\

[WilliamChan]

that would be wonderful please translate this

 

学者如牛毛，达者如麟角

 

thank you

 

Please dont mind if I have lost the beauty in the original sentence.

 

Learners are as many as cow's hair, successors are as few as unicorn horns.

[Aeran]

I don't want to derail this discussion, but does anyone have a link to an article or thread or anything which sums up what went on with the whole Kunlun thing? It was before my time (so to speak), but I'm always interested in hearing about different people's experiences with different systems (positive and negative).

[Taoist Texts]

Yes. those who try to succeed in neidan are as numerous as hairs on a cowhide, those who have actually attained success are as unique as uncorn's horn. You still say that anyone can do neidan?

[WilliamChan]

No, Kunlun was a simple self-practice that didn't invoke spirits or magic.  However, it did seem to push whatever latent fears or other negative dross lurking in your subconscious up into your manifest conscious awareness.  So, if you feared entities, you might get haunted by them, etc.  But more often, it could initiate physical detoxing that would require healing.

 

I had some incredible experiences with it and still feel like I benefited immensely from it.  Kriyas (automatic outer body movements) were just the tame norm then, lol.  But, I was also fortunate to have some good outside healing resources and sufficient grounding to be able to handle whatever was stirred up.  And those who didn't, ran into problems...

I've always wondered "why?" and as Bruce Lee said, "We must discover the cause of our own ignorance."  Well, I wanted solutions to life's problems and Daoism appealed to me due to its deeply spiritual, philosophically esoteric, and yet highly practical and applicable nature.  And I was inspired by genuinely experiencing qi just as it had always traditionally been described for the first time.

 

So, the ancient mythology...was actually literally (and not "metaphorically") TRUE?!

 

Anyhow, so yes, I would love to learn more of whatever you have to share! /\

 

I do also agree that Daoism gives much solution to life, since it has the most detailed explanations about everything, compared to other religions, in my opinion.  Even many ancient Chinese Medicine Doctors are Neidan Practitioners who discovered the body in a very deep sense and created the healing theory.  But sadly we are used to hide the techniques or only pass down to one or two lifelong students.  Many good things are lost.  This year, I have quit my job because I have found a real Master in Malaysia and went to find him.  His lineage is from the ancient time and so the writing in it is mostly Hieroglyphic; the lineage has been only passed in the mountain (he never receive students and gradually we have lost contact).  I have seen so many non-explainable scenarios.  So I truly believe some methodology are real.  Such things exist.  But I do not go for mysterious things anymore.  The highest is Tao in itself, others are moon in the water.

[WilliamChan]

Yes. those who try to succeed in neidan are as numerous as hairs on a cowhide, those who have actually attained success are as unique as uncorn's horn. You still say that anyone can do neidan?

 

Yes of course.  There are too many unnecessary dogmas and rumors about a secretary linage.  Very few people in the ancient time could have the chance to even hear about Neidan.  Gradually it builds a huge distance.

 

Moreover, the quote you have made is originally written by a General, when he is writing about discourses about doing war.  It is not an authoritative saying and does not give too much meaning.  There are many such poetic sayings in many different religions too.  Can we believe all of it?

 

Another reason why we should not believe all of it, is that Neidan has been spread into toooooo many different lineages, and each has its own saying.  Meanwhile, many say if you have the right method, you will succeed FOR SURE.  The most important thing is to find a PARTICULAR lineage, and see how the masters think and talk about Success.  If they also think it is not impossible, then I think it could be true in their lineage.  But not for all lineage.  There are still successors.

 

Lastly, how do we tell if it is possible, or not possible?  Read the REAL techniques, skip the dogma and rumours, and evaluate yourself.  If you have read about the techniques, you will see that, there are so many similarities with the Indian Tantra at the beginning stage.  The Back Channel locates at the same place with their Sushumna.  When it reaches the head, it turns into cool liquid and going back down to create bliss (mico-orbit).  Even in the later stage, Big medicine happens when the *very refined* real Yang comes up to meet the real Yin in the head, and people go into dead state for 7 days until it comes back.  It looks very similar to when Shakti "fully awakened" and travel up to meet Shiva and fully absorbed into it (real yang and real yin merges and become "Tai Chi" / "Oneness"); until that time practitioners are into dead state, since his consciousness/shaiti/yang has become one with the Source/yin/Tao.  And when he/she comes back, the Shiva travels with Shakti and the whole world become different.  (though there is still slight difference focus).  Based on the similarity between both and many yogis could actually do it nowadays, I would assume it is equally achievable in Neidan too.  We have the same body and nervous system.

 

Both is still possible nowadays.  Successors (many in yoga, very few in Neidan) have been sharing about their experience.  If they can, others can too.  Also, practice of Neidan is not that mysterious.  Everyone can begin with too.  But of course, even it is unlike the uncorn's horn saying and can be achieved by normal person with much effort, it is still very difficult (and in my opinion more difficult than Yoga). 

 

If you are talking about physical immortality in Neidan, or rainbow body is Yoga/The Great Perfection, I do not have any idea about the possibilities of it, since I still have not met or read any reliable source.  But it is surely not for me and not for everyone, as even the most sincere followers might fail too.  If this is what you are trying to say, I agree with you.

 

May I know what do you practice (or only non-doing) ?  Why do you choose to practice in this way?  How is your experience so far? 

Edited September 10, 2015 by WilliamChan

[Taoist Texts]

Yes of course.  There are too many unnecessary dogmas and rumors about a secretary linage.  Very few people in the ancient time could have the chance to even hear about Neidan.  Gradually it builds a huge distance.

 

Moreover, the quote you have made is originally written by a General, when he is writing about discourses about doing war.  It is not an authoritative saying and does not give too much meaning.  There are many such poetic sayings in many different religions too.  Can we believe all of it?

 

Another reason why we should not believe all of it, is that Neidan has been spread into toooooo many different lineages, and each has its own saying.  Meanwhile, many say if you have the right method, you will succeed FOR SURE.  

 

So you believe promises but do not believe warnings. That's...nice.

 

 

That is why the ancient used to say: “of those who study Dao there are as many as hairs on a cow - but of those who completed Dao there are as few as horns on a unicorn”.

 

吾曰：「今人學道者如牛毛，聞道者如麟角。何言之？古人聞道者多，而成道者少；

今人學道者多，而聞道者少；今人學道之數，倍於古人學道之數；今人聞道之數， 少於古人成道之數。

 

But I say: “nowadays of those who study Dao there are as hairs on a cow - but of those who even heard about the true Dao are as few as horns on a unicorn”. 

 

 

(劉一明「通關文」)

 

 

The most important thing is to find a PARTICULAR lineage, and see how the masters think and talk about Success.  If they also think it is not impossible, then I think it could be true in their lineage.  But not for all lineage.  There are still successors.

 

Lastly, how do we tell if it is possible, or not possible?  Read the REAL techniques, skip the dogma and rumours, and evaluate yourself.  If you have read about the techniques, you will see that, there are so many similarities with the Indian Tantra at the beginning stage.  The Back Channel locates at the same place with their Sushumna.  When it reaches the head, it turns into cool liquid and going back down to create bliss (mico-orbit).  Even in the later stage, Big medicine happens when the *very refined* real Yang comes up to meet the real Yin in the head, and people go into dead state for 7 days until it comes back.  It looks very similar to when Shakti "fully awakened" and travel up to meet Shiva and fully absorbed into it (real yang and real yin merges and become "Tai Chi" / "Oneness"); until that time practitioners are into dead state, since his consciousness/shaiti/yang has become one with the Source/yin/Tao.  And when he/she comes back, the Shiva travels with Shakti and the whole world become different.  (though there is still slight difference focus).  Based on the similarity between both and many yogis could actually do it nowadays, I would assume it is equally achievable in Neidan too.  We have the same body and nervous system.

 

Both is still possible nowadays.  Successors (many in yoga, very few in Neidan) have been sharing about their experience.  If they can, others can too.  

How do you know they can? May be they just say that they can.

 

Also, practice of Neidan is not that mysterious.  Everyone can begin with too.  But of course, even it is unlike the uncorn's horn saying and can be achieved by normal person with much effort, it is still very difficult (and in my opinion more difficult than Yoga). 

 

If you are talking about physical immortality in Neidan, or rainbow body is Yoga/The Great Perfection, I do not have any idea about the possibilities of it, since I still have not met or read any reliable source.  But it is surely not for me and not for everyone, as even the most sincere followers might fail too.  If this is what you are trying to say, I agree with you.

 

Thank you. But if "physical immortality in Neidan, or rainbow body " are impossible for an average person, then what is possible for an average person in neidan?

 

May I know what do you practice (or only non-doing) ?  Why do you choose to practice in this way?  How is your experience so far? 

I practice Quanzhen alchemy. Neidan is a dead-end, it is useless and harmful, so I have chosen the true way of Quanzhen. The experience is excellent, I had all the true results in accord with the texts.

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Taoist Texts]

 

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on this. I have not heard of this, and be interesting to hear from someone who is practicing.

 

Of course, will be glad too. Here I will quote the patriarchs of Quanzhen on what their alchemy is, the operative words being 

 

"in the world you must have nothing that you cherish"

 

 

 

 

Ma Yu and Qiu Chuji

 

“INNER DAILY SUSTENANCE” (NEIRIYONG) AND “OUTER DAILY SUSTENANCE” (WAIRIYONG):

 

You every day must not forget the matter of your daily sustenance. Of daily sustenance there are two types; there is outer daily sustenance and inner daily sustenance.

 

Outer daily sustenance [is as follows]: You are strongly forbidden to see the faults of others, boast of your own virtue, envy the wise and talented, give rise to the worldly thoughts that are the fire of ignorance, give rise [to] feelings of superiority over the masses, [discriminate] between self and other or right and wrong, or to speak of hatred and affection.

 

Inner daily sustenance [is as follows]: Quit giving rise to doubtful thoughts. Always do not be forgetful of the inside. Whether wandering about or staying and sitting, you should clear your mind and discard your desires. Have nothing that hangs upon or hinders [your mind]. Do not get defiled and do not cling. In true clarity and true purity, wander about freely at your will. Consistently throughout the day, contemplate upon the Tao in the same way a hungry person thinks of food or a thirsty person thinks of drink. If you become aware of the slightest imbalance [in your thinking], you must correct it. If you train yourself in this way, you will definitely become a Divine Immortal.

 

You people, listen to my words. You must not forget your inner daily sustenance and outer daily sustenance.

 

Outer daily sustenance [is as follows]: You are strongly forbidden to see the faults of others, boast of your own virtue, envy the wise and the talented, give rise to ignorant worldly thoughts, [or to commit] the various misdeeds of a desiring mind.

 

Inner daily sustenance [is as follows]: Be truly clear and truly still. Do not become defiled and do not cling. Control your energy, and nurture your spirit. Wander about freely at your will. Secretly accumulate merits and deeds; do not seek for recognition from people, but only wish to be observed by Heaven.

 

A poem says,

“[From the] Tao, human emotions are distant. Non-action is the basis of the wondrous origin.

If in the world you have nothing that you cherish, confused thoughts will not ensue.”

 

(Ma Yu)

 

 

Again [someone] asked [Qiu Chuji] about inner and outer daily sustenance.

 

Qiu said, “To abandon your self and follow another person (humbly obey one’s teacher), to overcome yourself and return to propriety, this is your outer daily sustenance. To forgive others and withstand insults, to eliminate all thoughts and worries, to put all things to rest in your mind, this is your inner daily sustenance.”

 

The next day [someone] again asked about inner and outer daily sustenance. Qiu said, “To put others first and yourself last, to put yourself in accord with others, this is your outer daily sustenance. To carry out your training in clarity and stillness, this is your inner daily sustenance.”

 

He also said, “To always make your entire mind limpid, to remain alert and aware throughout the twelve [double-] hours of the day, to not let your [Real] Nature become obscured, to make your mind stable and your qi harmonious, this is your true inner daily sustenance. To practice benevolence and accumulate virtue, to make yourself suffer for the benefit of others, this is your true outer daily sustenance.”

 

 (Qiu Chuji)

 

/Eskildsen/

[SonOfTheGods]

One more point I would like to make is, true Neidan focuses on absorbing and refining.  The Chi in the body is becoming more and more weightless and refined.  It is kept deep inside the body like a very refined materials, which gives you ecstasy feelings.  So high quality Chi will not stimulate and move your body like this.  If so, those Chi is still on the outer surface in the body so that it can stimulates body movements. (according to some masters, sometimes Neidan practitioners will activate these automatic movement too, but definitely not for long).

 

On the other hand, in some practices, Chi will make you feel hot and feel like it is surrounding your body.  In short period of time people feel healthier, but weaker in long term.  Since these could be fake Yang, keep becoming hotter and hotter, that will burn the Yin in your body and make you feel thirsty always.

 

So many practitioners are heat chasers- and it will eat up the body long term, just as you said

[Aetherous]

Also, I am reading the other threads and discovered about Kunlun.  There were many problems happened in China when it was popular.  So many qigong masters have actually forbid it.

 

It seems like you're maybe talking about spontaneous movement qigong? Kunlun isn't really the same thing...it's a certain posture, basically.

[WilliamChan]

So you believe promises but do not believe warnings. That's...nice.

 

 

That is why the ancient used to say: “of those who study Dao there are as many as hairs on a cow - but of those who completed Dao there are as few as horns on a unicorn”.

 

吾曰：「今人學道者如牛毛，聞道者如麟角。何言之？古人聞道者多，而成道者少；

今人學道者多，而聞道者少；今人學道之數，倍於古人學道之數；今人聞道之數， 少於古人成道之數。

 

But I say: “nowadays of those who study Dao there are as hairs on a cow - but of those who even heard about the true Dao are as few as horns on a unicorn”. 

 

 

(劉一明「通關文」)

 

 

How do you know they can? May be they just say that they can.

 

 

Thank you. But if "physical immortality in Neidan, or rainbow body " are impossible for an average person, then what is possible for an average person in neidan?

 

I practice Quanzhen alchemy. Neidan is a dead-end, it is useless and harmful, so I have chosen the true way of Quanzhen. The experience is excellent, I had all the true results in accord with the texts.

 

 

The Neidan I am describing in my first post is actually of Dragon Gate tradition, which is one of the lineage of traditional Quanzhen. If you are really practicing Quanzhen you must have understood about what I have said in the post. Moreover, Quanzhen alchemy, which is later alchemy, does not talk about physical immortality anymore, so when you asked me about what can Neidan achieve, it would be to merging with Tao.

 

About your perspective, with so much respect to you and your master I disagree:

 

1)  It is not a careful conclusion to just raise out one or two fragmented sutras and dismiss the further discussion of a very fruitful tradition without even going deeper to discuss the methodology, historical background, etc..  

 

2) Even the writer of your sutra is a Neidan Practitioner. 劉一明 has written so many texts about the importance of practice BOTH spirit and body (chi) --- “若欲成道，非性命双修不可”.  Of course nowadays very few people are practicing Neidan, and very few of them practice the correct one.  And of course very very few people succeed.  But traditionally when people have learnt the right one, with effort they succeed.  So if we change the situation now by disclosing more and more about Neidan, the correct methods, more will succeed.  

 

3)  Have you ever studied Neidan?  Or just follow the idea of certain masters?  If you have studied you will see the things describe in here is never impossible.  It doesnt ask you to do magical flying etc.  It is not even DANGEROUS. Not useless too for sure as it gets normal people much healthier, even though they did not succeed at last.  I have many experience of cultivating real Yang that sexual BLISS going throughout my body, lights and things like that.  So I personally believe this can happen.

 

4)  Do you know nearly most of the first generation masters in Quanzhen actually practice Neidan?  Do you know that nowadays many Tao Masters could not access to Neidan and therefore they just have to only follow the Spiritual teaching?  Do you know that pure Spirit / philosophical teaching is only for those who is VERY talented and could go directly into Tao without even doing anything?  Many people nowadays could not do that, just like me.  And Neidan is actually a step by step guide going back to Tao.  If you do not have a healthy pure yang body, the dirt of mind will be destroying you in your deepest consciousness as a form on subtle energy blockage.  So if you could clear up the blockages and more, Tao is here.  Again, as the author of your quote says: “若欲成道，非性命双修不可”. 

 

A Quanzhen master have tried to become a alive dead man for many years.  And when he goes out he thought he has succeeded.  Only until he hears people talking about the dismay of the country, his heart moves again and he know he still does not succeed.  At that time he admits that solely practice Spirt/Mind is very difficult to succeed.  Have you heard of this story?  If you wish I could find the source but it would take some time.

 

At last, my dear friend, I know you are very into your lineage and teachings.  I am sure what you are doing is taught by a beautiful tradition.  I am very glad that you could echo to such pure Taoist teachings without even preparing for the earlier stage.  If I have the talents like you, I would not go for any energy cultivation for sure.  However, please understand that nowadays Neidan is not as mysterious as in the ancient.  The late Neidan is about merging with Tao, instead of physical immortality.  It could help so many people with health.  I hope you could first study about Neidan and then do your argument.  Or else, some empty arguments will not help yourself and others to see the whole picture.  

 

Thank you so much and let's abide with Tao now.

Edited September 11, 2015 by WilliamChan