Split from Awakening versus enlightenment

[Karl]

Yes, those would be additional examples of composite delusions, as it would anything word and/or thought based.  Reality is Reality, accepting human constructed substitutions would only be cheating ourselves out of the ineffable beauty and wonder of Now that encompasses all that is real to the limit of a humans perception limited ability to know it.    We are in agreement brother. :-)

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

Each thing you add is yet another delusion Bud. This should be obvious. You have created your own logic loop which is piling one after another thoughts on top of the next. You aren't finding reality, but going in the opposite direction.

 

It's strange to see this happening to another person because I must have gone through this same thing. You are believing reality is a different thing to what you directly experience as reality. It's like Russian dolls.

[Bud Jetsun]

Karl my friend, first I must say, I am grateful and indebted to your probing discussion.

 

Lack of experiencing unmind-filtered awareness of perception does not preclude the existence of the choice of state.

 

My words can not be capable of relating existence of the state to you. It is a timeless experience because time is the perception of passing thoughts. It is a state of awe in that no attempt at interpretation of word/verbal concepts is fathomable.

 

This is due to inherent word limitations of only representing qualities of relationship concepts in the perception limited perspective of the finite.

 

When trying to express the infinite and infinitesimal Oneness it's beyond the game piece arrangements scope of relationships.

 

This is why the games break down and end in loops of endless philosophy banter to fill library shelves.

 

This is also why Buddha said not to write down his words, but to instead focus on liveing the lifestyle of compassion that brings peace-to-mind, offering clairity of the ever present beyond mind.

 

Buddy boy, you side step the teachings and practices of the historic Buddha while proclaiming Buddhism per Bud, now that is AN EXAMPLE of delusional.

In compassion for your new awareness brothers.

 

 

"Wisdom in Buddhism can refer to two types of insight: conventional wisdom and ultimate wisdom:

 

Conventional wisdom relates to understanding the conventional world, or the world as we know it. Traditionally it refers to understanding the way in which karma functions; to understand which actions bring us happiness and which bring us suffering. Conventional wisdom covers all understanding of the world as it functions, including science, with the exception of ultimate wisdom.

 

Ultimate wisdom (jñana in Sanskrit) refers to a direct realisation which is non-dualistic, and contradicts the way in which we ordinarily perceive the world. The direct experience of ultimate truth, selflessness or emptiness is beyond duality. "

Edited September 13, 2015 by Bud Jetsun

[3bob]

in compassion Atman is ultimate non-dual truth "for your new awareness brothers" (how condescending of you Buddy boy)

[Bud Jetsun]

in compassion Atman is ultimate non-dual truth "for your new awareness brothers" (how condescending of you Buddy boy)

My apologies for your choice in interpretation brother. I am sincere.

 

Call it Atman then or any label of choice if you have bias.

[3bob]

Bud, That's clever - being above it all. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

Karl my friend, first I must say, I am grateful and indebted to your probing discussion.

Lack of experiencing unmind-filtered awareness of perception does not preclude the existence of the choice of state.

My words can not be capable of relating existence of the state to you. It is a timeless experience because time is the perception of passing thoughts. It is a state of awe in that no attempt at interpretation of word/verbal concepts is fathomable.

This is due to inherent word limitations of only representing qualities of relationship concepts in the perception limited perspective of the finite.

When trying to express the infinite and infinitesimal Oneness it's beyond the game piece arrangements scope of relationships.

This is why the games break down and end in loops of endless philosophy banter to fill library shelves.

This is also why Buddha said not to write down his words, but to instead focus on liveing the lifestyle of compassion that brings peace-to-mind, offering clairity of the ever present beyond mind. In compassion for your new awareness brothers.

"Wisdom in Buddhism can refer to two types of insight: conventional wisdom and ultimate wisdom:

Conventional wisdom relates to understanding the conventional world, or the world as we know it. Traditionally it refers to understanding the way in which karma functions; to understand which actions bring us happiness and which bring us suffering. Conventional wisdom covers all understanding of the world as it functions, including science, with the exception of ultimate wisdom.

Ultimate wisdom (jñana in Sanskrit) refers to a direct realisation which is non-dualistic, and contradicts the way in which we ordinarily perceive the world. The direct experience of ultimate truth, selflessness or emptiness is beyond duality. "

 

You are using your mind to suggest you have no mind, or you have gone beyond mind. This is is the primary loop which you have created for yourself. I did the same for about 3 years. You are no different to anybody else here in that we all have conscious awareness by which we identify as self. You can play head games with yourself, but you cannot evade what is an it ereducible part. You think therefore you are. Everything you think about, regardless of the way in which you twist and turn those thoughts, will always ultimately rest in this self same identified awareness. It's ironic that you are attached/identified with your thoughts of what reality is and not in attempting to contemplate reality directly.

 

This is attachment to a belief and exactly what Buddah warned about. This is why he rejected Austerities and extended deep meditation because these were attachments to the ideology of 'no mind' either directly by extended sessions of 'no mind' meditation or physically, by austerities rejecting material reality.

[Nikolai1]

You are using your mind to suggest you have no mind, or you have gone beyond mind. This is is the primary loop which you have created for yourself. I did the same for about 3 years. 

This situation you are describing is so true of so many people on the spiritual path.  I'm part of a non-duality discussion group that meets in my town and it seems to me that all of the members are in the same logical loop you describe.  And you are also right that Buddha warned against it: he and his followers called it being 'stuck in emptiness.'

 

It is in effect what happens when you realise that solid reality can also be seen as totally unreal.  But, as you point out, this is another logical insight...and because the seeker is still a firm beliver in logic, he simply exchanges one view for the other whiile duplicitously suggesting that he has overcome logic.

 

He hasn't overcome logic, he is still in the same trap in he was in...but calling it another name.

 

But this is where you are wrong, and get people wrong:

 

Just because people talk the talk of emptiness, it doesn't mean that they are walking the walk.  If you take people's words at face value then you will assume they are at speaking at the same dualisitic level of consciousness as their words (and all words are dualistic)

 

I don't think you understand just how the true teacher, when he speaks of 'truth', or of the unreality of reality, is being entirely ironic.  He knows that the truth that is inside him beloongs to a completely different order.  He does not at all believe that his words even remotely capture what he has discovered, but he speaks anyway...because reality speaks.

 

You have identified the 'logical loop' that many seekers are in, but you think the solution to this is to stop the regress (the rot!) and insert an abitrary fiat.  This fiat is your assumption in the solid reality that logic captures.  It is painfully obvious how misguided you are, but you are the last to see it because you are also trapped...not in 'emptiness', but in reality.

 

There is a higher stage that you need to reach.  You need to, for yourself, and for no-one but yourself, step out of the logical loop you see in others but don't see in yourself.

 

This territory beyond is totally, totally dark to you, I'm sure.  But a useful preparation would be to courageously face up to the logical problems in your objectivism. Man up! Read Kant! 

 

Your objectivism is propped up by one incredibly crude argument.  That all those who argue against objectivism are doing so in order to politicaly manipulate us and to keep us in ignorance and docility.

 

This grotesque deduction of yours is inevitable because you have seen both sides of the argument about reality and emptiness, but not achieved a synthesis.  You have no choice therefore to fall on one side, and say that one side is not actually logically valid but an extraordinarily sophisticated conspiracy: a mirage of logic.

 

You will not let logic go, will you? But this is your solution.  You need to find the ground which is the true solution to the logical impasse.  You need to unite with the source of all logic.

[3bob]

I'd say the big disconnect is when people start walking around saying something like, "illusion this - delusion that"  for such a disconnect is only in our local and limited thoughts for there is no real disconnect between the most subtle and transcendent to the most thick as a brick... and for all those Buddhist folks I'd add that there is no disconnect between reality and non-reality or enlightenment and samsara, or between the "beyond of the beyond" and ground we walk on, thus "samsara properly understood is nirvana" ( paraphrase of Mr. N.)

 

what is so special is also so basic and essentially common although veiled by limited perception , for the "unborn and undying" has no problem with the manifest and ever-changing  transformation of energy that it is directly connected to through "Mystery".  (but some of us do and reject same as delusional non-reality with high sounding sophistic based proclamations)

[Karl]

This situation you are describing is so true of so many people on the spiritual path.  I'm part of a non-duality discussion group that meets in my town and it seems to me that all of the members are in the same logical loop you describe.  And you are also right that Buddha warned against it: he and his followers called it being 'stuck in emptiness.'

 

It is in effect what happens when you realise that solid reality can also be seen as totally unreal.  But, as you point out, this is another logical insight...and because the seeker is still a firm beliver in logic, he simply exchanges one view for the other whiile duplicitously suggesting that he has overcome logic.

 

He hasn't overcome logic, he is still in the same trap in he was in...but calling it another name.

 

But this is where you are wrong, and get people wrong:

 

Just because people talk the talk of emptiness, it doesn't mean that they are walking the walk.  If you take people's words at face value then you will assume they are at speaking at the same dualisitic level of consciousness as their words (and all words are dualistic)

 

I don't think you understand just how the true teacher, when he speaks of 'truth', or of the unreality of reality, is being entirely ironic.  He knows that the truth that is inside him beloongs to a completely different order.  He does not at all believe that his words even remotely capture what he has discovered, but he speaks anyway...because reality speaks.

 

You have identified the 'logical loop' that many seekers are in, but you think the solution to this is to stop the regress (the rot!) and insert an abitrary fiat.  This fiat is your assumption in the solid reality that logic captures.  It is painfully obvious how misguided you are, but you are the last to see it because you are also trapped...not in 'emptiness', but in reality.

 

There is a higher stage that you need to reach.  You need to, for yourself, and for no-one but yourself, step out of the logical loop you see in others but don't see in yourself.

 

This territory beyond is totally, totally dark to you, I'm sure.  But a useful preparation would be to courageously face up to the logical problems in your objectivism. Man up! Read Kant! 

 

Your objectivism is propped up by one incredibly crude argument.  That all those who argue against objectivism are doing so in order to politicaly manipulate us and to keep us in ignorance and docility.

 

This grotesque deduction of yours is inevitable because you have seen both sides of the argument about reality and emptiness, but not achieved a synthesis.  You have no choice therefore to fall on one side, and say that one side is not actually logically valid but an extraordinarily sophisticated conspiracy: a mirage of logic.

 

You will not let logic go, will you? But this is your solution.  You need to find the ground which is the true solution to the logical impasse.  You need to unite with the source of all logic.

 

There is no 'solution'. I don't offer logic as a solution to any problem because there must first be a problem-which there isn't. Logic simply helps to iron out the conflict in two statements to reach a conclusion.

 

Where you see a need for a solution I see no such problem which requires one. I'm not in a loop because I have no requirement to solve a dichotomy in the first place. I don't have two conflicting statements to resolve. This is what you appear to misunderstand. You have made an assumption that I have the same conflict you are trying to resolve and am attempting to use logic to solve it. The fact is, logic made the dichotomy unnecessary. I'm simply using logic to show how the same arguments I had also once had are actually mind made creations. You can call these thoughts false self/ ego if you like, but I would just call them self defeating thoughts that are specifically ill formed by design in order to keep going around a track to avoid some part of reality (maybe responsibility)-it isn't any different to drug taking.

 

 

[Nikolai1]

 Where you see a need for a solution I see no such problem which requires one. I'm not in a loop because I have no requirement to solve a dichotomy in the first place. I don't have two conflicting statements to resolve. This is what you appear to misunderstand. You have made an assumption that I have the same conflict you are trying to resolve and am attempting to use logic to solve it. The fact is, logic made the dichotomy unnecessary. I'm simply using logic to show how the same arguments I had also once had are actually mind made creations.

Since you came here you have been diagnosing problems in people: the way they think, the way they educate themselves, the way some assume powers over others etc.

 

You seem to be on this website for no other reason than to correct people, usually on their logic.

 

So what you are saying is that your only problem is other's people's problems?

[Karl]

I'd say the big disconnect is when people start walking around saying something like, "illusion this - delusion that"  for such a disconnect is only in our local and limited thoughts for there is no real disconnect between the most subtle and transcendent to the most thick as a brick... and for all those Buddhist folks I'd add that there is no disconnect between reality and non-reality or enlightenment and samsara, or between the "beyond of the beyond" and ground we walk on, thus "samsara properly understood is nirvana" ( paraphrase of Mr. N.)

 

what is so special is also so basic and essentially common although veiled by limited perception , for the "unborn and undying" has no problem with the manifest and ever-changing  transformation of energy that it is directly connected to through "Mystery".  (but some of us do and reject same as delusional non-reality with high sounding sophistic based proclamations)

 

I want to like that statement because it suggests something simple, 'we know what we can know and don't yet know what we don't yet know or will never know'.

 

That everyone from practising Buddhist guru to the spiritually disconnected can equally know this to be true. Indeed those who require no spiritual practice may likely be less troubled with that understanding than the cleverest philosopher. As Jesus said "a camel may pass through the eye of the needle with less effort than the richest man".

[Karl]

Since you came here you have been diagnosing problems in people: the way they think, the way they educate themselves, the way some assume powers over others etc.

 

You seem to be on this website for no other reason than to correct people, usually on their logic.

 

So what you are saying is that your only problem is other's people's problems?

 

Absolutely not. I assume no power because I seek none and have none. If someone positions an argument I simply try and show where the fallacies are. Indeed Brian showed a fallacy in my own argument regarding the Trivium method and the classical Trivium. I found this enlightening and subsequently used logic to remove the fallacious statement from my argument. This is why I'm here. It's pointless going somewhere where my own understandings remain unchallenged. Isn't that really why you are here ? Surely it isn't to have your own biases confirmed ? Aren't you here to discover, as best you can, what is true ?

 

I don't have 'a problem' anymore than a baby has a problem when it bites an object in order to define what that object is and how it relates to itself. This, to me, human discourse and idea swapping, is just an advanced form of that behaviour. The other reason I'm here is that we are headed for a disaster and the pilot is either asleep at the controls, or is so psychopathic he is intending to fly us all into the mountain. Most of the passengers are oblivious of the danger, only those who are uncomfortable with themselves know something isn't quite right, but they are busy trying to convince themselves that the discomfort they feel is entirely self generated.

[Nikolai1]

. Most of the passengers are oblivious of the danger, only those who are uncomfortable with themselves know something isn't quite right, but they are busy trying to convince themselves that the discomfort they feel is entirely self generated.

It seems to be a basic feature of the human condition to sense that something 'isn't quite right'.

 

The word sin 'means missing the target) originally, and the target was the will of the Father.

 

Buddhists call the same feeling duhkka - originally as in 'a wheel rolling off kilter' but now translated as unsatisfactoriness.  And yes the situation is self-genarated through ignorance of the Truth. Not performing God's will is understood as more like some kind of intellectual error.

 

I think for you the problem and solution are presented politically.  Our feeling that something isn't right is due to the fact that we aren't politically free - a problem compounded when we think we are free.

 

In a way, I'm quite comfortable with any of these - but only if they each recognise that liberation is possible.

[Karl]

It seems to be a basic feature of the human condition to sense that something 'isn't quite right'.

 

The word sin 'means missing the target) originally, and the target was the will of the Father.

 

Buddhists call the same feeling duhkka - originally as in 'a wheel rolling off kilter' but now translated as unsatisfactoriness.  And yes the situation is self-genarated through ignorance of the Truth. Not performing God's will is understood as more like some kind of intellectual error.

 

I think for you the problem and solution are presented politically.  Our feeling that something isn't right is due to the fact that we aren't politically free - a problem compounded when we think we are free.

 

In a way, I'm quite comfortable with any of these - but only if they each recognise that liberation is possible.

 

Yes, liberation is not only possible but necessary. As you say it manifests politically for me. I think you will find though, invevitably all things resolve themselves equally by the resolution of the dichotomy and then what will be left is what ever action remains to be carried out. This is grammar-logic-rhetoric or another way perception-understanding-action or input-process-output. For each person I would expect that the action will be very different according to capacity and capability.

 

 

[Nikolai1]

 I think you will find though, invevitably all things resolve themselves equally by the resolution of the dichotomy and then what will be left is what ever action remains to be carried out. 

This reminds of Socrates' idea that wisdom will automatically result in virtue. But this can't happen until we admit our foolishness,  Likewise, the Father's will can't be done until we admit our original sin.  Also Buddhism's primary teaching is that life is, in fact, very unsatisfactory. Only when we see this can we go about liberating ourselves.

[Karl]

This reminds of Socrates' idea that wisdom will automatically result in virtue. But this can't happen until we admit our foolishness,  Likewise, the Father's will can't be done until we admit our original sin.  Also Buddhism's primary teaching is that life is, in fact, very unsatisfactory. Only when we see this can we go about liberating ourselves.

 

You are exploring self and so the result of that exploration will be what it will be. It seems to me that Liberty-a freedom from the personally created bindings of ignorance-is sufficient an aim for the moment.

 

Life is what it is. I can't pretend to know the purpose of it. It's funny that you say 'unsatisfactory' as this is exactly what Von Mises says in his work 'human action'. It is this unsatisfactory state which causes us to continually strive for a more satisfactory state and so action occurs towards that state. I suppose I think that I am greatful for this opportunity to live and regard that as a sufficient gift which I will then try and make the most of despite whatever deprivations that come along. One day I will be dead and then it won't matter.

[Bud Jetsun]

You are using your mind to suggest you have no mind, or you have gone beyond mind. This is is the primary loop which you have created for yourself. I did the same for about 3 years. You are no different to anybody else here in that we all have conscious awareness by which we identify as self. You can play head games with yourself, but you cannot evade what is an it ereducible part. You think therefore you are. Everything you think about, regardless of the way in which you twist and turn those thoughts, will always ultimately rest in this self same identified awareness. It's ironic that you are attached/identified with your thoughts of what reality is and not in attempting to contemplate reality directly. This is attachment to a belief and exactly what Buddah warned about. This is why he rejected Austerities and extended deep meditation because these were attachments to the ideology of 'no mind' either directly by extended sessions of 'no mind' meditation or physically, by austerities rejecting material reality.

 

 

Our thoughts and reason sum to create a byproduct artifact illusion of little self. We do not exist because we think, we exist and then choose to think.

 

If one thinks in words, one is thinking in the taught constructs and ones output from such a process inherently wont escape being some arrangements of taught and you-relate-able construct delusions.

 

It's inherently impossible to relate the ineffable, both to those who have and haven't experienced it alike.

 

It's not a destination the fearful and clinging can achieve no matter the dose, they will just use the experience to be in a state of choosing to suffer there own delusions same as they choose to do in every other experience.

 

There are plant tools that can assist in offering an otherwise extremely difficult to find pathway to temporary surrender all your concept of constructs. No concept of a language or any of its associated human delusion shenanigans. No concept of a 'previous' moment ever having been. No concept of a 'future' moment ever 'to be later'. No concept of body, no concept of the capacity for illusions of attachment. No belief illusions of 'knowing' ever having even been an option. Not even a trace illusion of the little looping indoctrination and self-constructed illusion of mind remaining.

 

The surrender and letting go of these normally irrevocable constructs takes an incalculable amount more courage than any other experience encountered on earth to the limit of my limited ability to know it. A lifetime spent racing cars, superbike racing, motocross racing, surfing in visibly sharky waters at night, extreme skiing, orgies etc all becomes inconsequential humdrum in comparison to spending a single ineffable timeless second in this ineffable state of perception.

 

I don't judge you for your answers brothers, prior to the experience, I had also thought such a state of perception would be impossible (because it's impossible to fathom) and if it were possible it would be pointless (because it is pointless to the ego and the little mind that clings to comfort in words and logic etc which aren't involved).

 

It doesn't make you awakened or enlightened or a good person or a bad person or anything, it's just an experience. However, it does forever alter ones awareness of the potential of perception beyond mind that no amount of intellectual looping banter can offer. This is why long ago folks used "mystery schools" and "plant shamans" and "witches brew" etc as tools that have now been replaced by the most part by books of endless looping intellectual banter that inherently can't escape it's own paradigm confines as you've already shown.

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited September 14, 2015 by Bud Jetsun

[Bud Jetsun]

Bud, how did you go beyond the thinking mind?Is it a place you are in permanently?What is the place of feelings within this way of being?

 

Some synergistic plants cleared the path. This is also how Milarepa and others were assited. (Nettle tea etc)

 

Technically we all permanently have the ability to perceive the unfiltered Now.

 

Practically, even with nearly complete cultured mindfulness and a lot of dedicated effort the path to that ineffable state remains a mystery to access without assistance, and even then only if complete surrender of the 'mind constructed' can be relinquished (attempting to describe this in mind created terms is utterly laughable).

 

The feeling is that of un-mind-imaginable Oneness I will not do the disjustice of attempting pitifully to quantify linguistically.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2015 by Bud Jetsun

[Karl]

Our thoughts and reason sum to create a byproduct artifact illusion of little self. We do not exist because we think, we exist and then choose to think.

If one thinks in words, one is thinking in the taught constructs and ones output from such a process inherently wont escape being some arrangements of taught and you-relate-able construct delusions.

It's inherently impossible to relate the ineffable, both to those who have and haven't experienced it alike.

It's not a destination the fearful and clinging can achieve no matter the dose, they will just use the experience to be in a state of choosing to suffer there own delusions same as they choose to do in every other experience.

There are plant tools that can assist in offering an otherwise extremely difficult to find pathway to temporary surrender all your concept of constructs. No concept of a language or any of its associated human delusion shenanigans. No concept of a 'previous' moment ever having been. No concept of a 'future' moment ever 'to be later'. No concept of body, no concept of the capacity for illusions of attachment. No belief illusions of 'knowing' ever having even been an option. Not even a trace illusion of the little looping indoctrination and self-constructed illusion of mind remaining.

The surrender and letting go of these normally irrevocable constructs takes an incalculable amount more courage than any other experience encountered on earth to the limit of my limited ability to know it. A lifetime spent racing cars, superbike racing, motocross racing, surfing in visibly sharky waters at night, extreme skiing, orgies etc all becomes inconsequential humdrum in comparison to spending a single ineffable timeless second in this ineffable state of perception.

I don't judge you for your answers brothers, prior to the experience, I had also thought such a state of perception would be impossible (because it's impossible to fathom) and if it were possible it would be pointless (because it is pointless to the ego and the little mind that clings to comfort in words and logic etc which aren't involved).

It doesn't make you awakened or enlightened or a good person or a bad person or anything, it's just an experience. However, it does forever alter ones awareness of the potential of perception beyond mind that no amount of intellectual looping banter can offer. This is why long ago folks used "mystery schools" and "plant shamans" and "witches brew" etc as tools that have now been replaced by the most part by books of endless looping intellectual banter that inherently can't escape it's own paradigm confines as you've already shown.

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

What you are describing is awakening- that's how it is, just as you have described, but it isn't enlightenment. After a time you might come down from the high, or bob along going in and out of awakening or stay partying in that state right to the point of enlightenment. It seems variable from person to person. I had a series of these awakenings with periods of post awakening come downs which I had to learn to surf. I did dangerous sports too, so maybe there is a correlation between risk and the height of the awakened experience. Once you have the first fall you will know what I'm talking about. The first crash can be hard. It's like having your voice break though, for some the transition to permanently awakened is seamless. You will discover that awakening is not really much at all, just a natural progression of age like experiencing sexual orgasm, it's all consuming at first, then more humdrum but still desirable.

 

Fir the same reason it's hard to describe orgasm. It also feels like oneness, beyond mind. 'Mind blowing ' is how it is described and in French 'the little death'. It's just a more cerebral version which shows maturation beyond the pure physicality of sex.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Karl

[Nikolai1]

Please don't equate manic-depression with awakening Karl. You need to stop thinking you understand people when you clearly don't.

[Karl]

Please don't equate manic-depression with awakening Karl. You need to stop thinking you understand people when you clearly don't.

 

Depression is completely different. I experienced both conditions and they are unrelated. Those experiences also fit well with the Gurus such a SRM have said to be the case. So either some of us do know, or no one knows. If no one knows then why bother having the discussion ? We might as well discuss the fairies at the bottom of the garden. Awakening and Enlightnment as as natural as puberty. The same confused feelings go along with awakening and enlightenment is the settling down.

[allinone]

Our thoughts and reason sum to create a byproduct artifact illusion of little self. We do not exist because we think, we exist and then choose to think.

 

If one thinks in words, one is thinking in the taught constructs and ones output from such a process inherently wont escape being some arrangements of taught and you-relate-able construct delusions.

 

It's inherently impossible to relate the ineffable, both to those who have and haven't experienced it alike.

 

It's not a destination the fearful and clinging can achieve no matter the dose, they will just use the experience to be in a state of choosing to suffer there own delusions same as they choose to do in every other experience.

 

There are plant tools that can assist in offering an otherwise extremely difficult to find pathway to temporary surrender all your concept of constructs. No concept of a language or any of its associated human delusion shenanigans. No concept of a 'previous' moment ever having been. No concept of a 'future' moment ever 'to be later'. No concept of body, no concept of the capacity for illusions of attachment. No belief illusions of 'knowing' ever having even been an option. Not even a trace illusion of the little looping indoctrination and self-constructed illusion of mind remaining.

 

The surrender and letting go of these normally irrevocable constructs takes an incalculable amount more courage than any other experience encountered on earth to the limit of my limited ability to know it. A lifetime spent racing cars, superbike racing, motocross racing, surfing in visibly sharky waters at night, extreme skiing, orgies etc all becomes inconsequential humdrum in comparison to spending a single ineffable timeless second in this ineffable state of perception.

 

I don't judge you for your answers brothers, prior to the experience, I had also thought such a state of perception would be impossible (because it's impossible to fathom) and if it were possible it would be pointless (because it is pointless to the ego and the little mind that clings to comfort in words and logic etc which aren't involved).

 

It doesn't make you awakened or enlightened or a good person or a bad person or anything, it's just an experience. However, it does forever alter ones awareness of the potential of perception beyond mind that no amount of intellectual looping banter can offer. This is why long ago folks used "mystery schools" and "plant shamans" and "witches brew" etc as tools that have now been replaced by the most part by books of endless looping intellectual banter that inherently can't escape it's own paradigm confines as you've already shown.

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

for my type of listeners you don't sound convincing. Too much text, too few twists.

[Bud Jetsun]

for my type of listeners you don't sound convincing. Too much text, too few twists.

 

 

If looking a computer screen (or book etc), it's fool hearty to expect it to reveal more than arrangements pixels (or droplets of ink). 

 

Looking externally for what is not is making a choice of ensured discontentment brother. 

 

If you step into the forest, do you assign your egos judgement of each tree and animal or embrace the whole as a beautiful system beyond means of human comprehension?

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Karl]

If looking a computer screen (or book etc), it's fool hearty to expect it to reveal more than arrangements pixels (or droplets of ink).

 

Looking externally for what is not is making a choice of ensured discontentment brother.

 

If you step into the forest, do you assign your egos judgement of each tree and animal or embrace the whole as a beautiful system beyond means of human comprehension?

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Yet you are doing precisely what you are advising others that they shouldn't.

 

If you believed a book to be purely a product of your consciousness, then there would be no requirement for words and yet you are writing words, by which you are attempting to communicate an abstract idea to a group of people who must-by implication- be separate individual identities.

 

If you didn't believe there was value in your communication, or that there were no people ( in your analogy-trees) to whom you could address your thoughts and then judge their responses, then you wouldn't bother writing anything in the first place.

 

Your writing in this blog is an utter condemnation of all the things you hold to be true.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Karl

[Bud Jetsun]

Yet you are doing precisely what you are advising others that they shouldn't.

 

If you believed a book to be purely a product of your consciousness, then there would be no requirement for words and yet you are writing words, by which you are attempting to communicate an abstract idea to a group of people who must-by implication- be separate individual identities.

 

If you didn't believe there was value in your communication, or that there were no people ( in your analogy-trees) to whom you could address your thoughts and then judge their responses, then you wouldn't bother writing anything in the first place.

 

Your writing in this blog is an utter condemnation of all the things you hold to be true.

 

All delusion, including all written forms, spoken forms, symbol forms, picture forms, expressible mind-created forms, un-expressible mind-created forms, etc are equally giving rise to the separation between the perception of Now which encompasses all that is Real to the limit of a humans ability to know it. 

 

All the combinations of letters and symbols I've ever arranged or ever will arrange has not and can not equate the nature of reality anymore than drawing a map equates the land for which it's constructed to represent. 

 

We are in agreement brother.   

 

Yet in this fleeting moment prior to collecting our singular and merciful entitlement, nature permits this crude fumbling in the dark of vainly tapping out some combinations of symbols for misinterpretation.  

 

As a student of reality, it is in my own futility of attempting relate experience that aids in my own selfish pursuit towards becoming the nature of compassion.  

 

Likewise, I am indebted and grateful to your own contributions and shared concepts.  Likewise I am indebted and grateful to all posters of this forum and all forums as well as all life experiences from all beings kind and cruel alike. 

 

We play the silly words games together because through this play we can become familiar enough with the nature of the pieces to let them go.

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud