Split from Awakening versus enlightenment

[Karl]

Reality is the symbols you write, but the map isn't the territory of course, just abstract representations of concepts. The value of communication is determined by the receiver and not the originator.

 

When do you think you will stop using these silly words ?

 

 

[Bud Jetsun]

Reality is the symbols you write, but the map isn't the territory of course, just abstract representations of concepts. The value of communication is determined by the receiver and not the originator. When do you think you will stop using these silly words ?

 

When it happens, no sooner no later, same as yourself brother.  Live compassion and all urges to rush/force any experience fade into peace-in-mind. 

 

While enjoying constructs exchange:

 

"Milarepa, who got many excellent disciples, said, "I have never valued or studied the sophistry of word-knowledge set down in books in conventional form to be committed to memory; these lead but to mental confusion. I forgot word-knowledge long ago, if I ever knew it. But I have had my reasons for forgetting book-knowledge. And then he sang:

May I be far removed from arguing creeds and dogmas.

I have forgotten all difference between myself and others.

I have forgotten all those who rule by power.

Accustomed long to meditating, I have forgotten all that is said in written and in printed words.

I have forgotten to think of hope, I have forgotten the dread of birth.

I have forgotten all creeds and dogmas.

I have forgotten all definitions, all man-made meditations, and all artificial usages."

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Karl]

When it happens, no sooner no later, same as yourself brother.  Live compassion and all urges to rush/force any experience fade into peace-in-mind. 

 

While enjoying constructs exchange:

 

"Milarepa, who got many excellent disciples, said, "I have never valued or studied the sophistry of word-knowledge set down in books in conventional form to be committed to memory; these lead but to mental confusion. I forgot word-knowledge long ago, if I ever knew it. But I have had my reasons for forgetting book-knowledge. And then he sang:

 

Milarepa was using the words he had remembered, along with them all the concepts he says he had forgotten. He quite obviously was talking otherwise the words could not have been written.

 

Now, what he says has a smattering of truth. All books- including the one which recorded Milarepa's own words-can be forgotten. There is no need to cling to Milarepa's words anymore than anybody else's. That's why I say to develop the mind sufficiently to act as a high quality filter. There is no need to act according to the Tao, Baghavad Gita, Bible or any other sacred text, philosophy or ideology. It's easier to ignore it all and use the power of reason to determine the closest fit to reality that can be achieved. That you haven't noticed this tells me that you are not discerning in your intake, or arguments. The proof is in your own need to use words, to quote Milerarepa, the words of Milerepa and the text used to record Milarepa. It reeks of hypocrisy and a total ignorance of reality.

[Bud Jetsun]

Milarepa was using the words he had remembered, along with them all the concepts he says he had forgotten. He quite obviously was talking otherwise the words could not have been written. Now, what he says has a smattering of truth. All books- including the one which recorded Milarepa's own words-can be forgotten. There is no need to cling to Milarepa's words anymore than anybody else's. That's why I say to develop the mind sufficiently to act as a high quality filter. There is no need to act according to the Tao, Baghavad Gita, Bible or any other sacred text, philosophy or ideology. It's easier to ignore it all and use the power of reason to determine the closest fit to reality that can be achieved. That you haven't noticed this tells me that you are not discerning in your intake, or arguments. The proof is in your own need to use words, to quote Milerarepa, the words of Milerepa and the text used to record Milarepa. It reeks of hypocrisy and a total ignorance of reality.

 

 

This is why no matter how 'enlightened' one becomes, when attempting to communicate with words, one must re-enter the dual illusion.  

 

Do you prefer quotes from other Buddhas or realized beings?  Do you prefer your own writings?  No matter who says or writes it, it can't escape ultimately being some dualistic delusional nonsense, as this happens at the instant Reality is replaced by constructs.

 

I appreciate and enjoy the experience of your words brother, even though they inherently can not proxy Reality. 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Tibetan_Ice]

Nettle tea in large doses is an entheogen, from numerous sources he drank so much he turned green, allegedly living from it alone for years.

 

There are a surprising amount of plants used for special teas aside from merely the addictive stimulant bearing variety greatly popularized by folks who evidently had such uninspiring mediation sessions they struggled to stay awake. Natural unassisted mediation alternatively can be intense indescribable bliss of wholly and mindfully embracing compassion to all beings, no caffeine stirring up the mind pointlessly needed to stay awake then.

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

You know, I could not find any source that says that nettles in large quantities acts as an entheogen. I did however find many sources saying that it is more like a "medicine" because of its high mineral content and diuretic properties.

I sort of resent the idea that you present, that Milarepa used nettles as a way to gain enlightenment. Milarepa worked very hard for his enlightenment and he was no drug addict.

 

http://www.thranguhk.org/buddhism/en_milarepa.html

Milarepa made a serious effort to meditate, but he was completely unable even to attain the blissful experience of inner warmth and, while he was wondering what to do, he had this dream : he was plowing a strip of his field. The earth was hard and he asked himself if he should give it up. Then the venerable Marpa appeared in the sky and said to him, " My son, strengthen your will, have courage, and work; you will furrow the hard and dry earth." Then, Marpa guided him and he plowed his field. Immediately a thick and abundant harvest sprang up.

 

He took this dream to mean that if he persevered in his efforts in meditation he would attain a new quality of inner experience. At the same day, his aunt brought me three loads of barley flour, a worn-out fur coat, a garment of good linen, some dried meat, and some butter and fat. And Milarepa decided to give his land and house to his aunt and uncle as a token of his gratitude.

 

The next morning, taking the payment for his field and some other small things which remained, he arrived at Horse Tooth White Rock without anyone knowing, and stayed there in a pleasant cave. He placed a small hard mat as a cushion for meditation and make a vow: " So long as he had not attained the state of spiritual illumination, he would not descend to enjoy alms, or offerings dedicated to The dead, even if he died of hunger in this mountain solitude." Having thus prayed, he sustained himself solely on thin soup with a little roasted barley flour, and began meditation.

 

Three years passed. All food were consumpted. He understood if there was nothing else to sustain him, it would be the end of his life. He went out in front of the White Rock cave where the sun was warm and the water excellent. Here were many nettles - an open place with a distant view. Joyfully, he stayed there.Sustaining himself with nettles, he continued his meditation.

 

Because Milarepa had no clothes on my body and no other nourishment whatever, his body, covered with greyish hair, became like a skeleton and his skin turned the colour of nettles. When this happened, he took the scroll that the lama had given him and placed it on his head. He was tempted to break the seal of the scroll to look at it. But an omen warned me not to open it yet. So he let it be.

 

About a year passed. One day, some hunters from the market of Kirong who had had no luck hunting suddenly came to his cave and demanded the food. Milarepa replied he had nothing except nettles. One of them lifted him up and dropped him down again. His body was filled with pain, he felt a terrible and unbearable pity for them. He wept.

 

After two year had passed. One day, some hunters arrived at the entrance to his cave. Seeing him, they cried out, 'It's a ghost!' and the nearest one ran away. He explained to them at length that I was not a ghost but a hermit meditating in the mountains, and that lack of food was responsible for the condition of his body. Thus he spoke, they offered me a large supply of meat along with other provisions. After he had eaten cooked meat, his body began to feel tranquil bliss.

 

Milarepa ate the meat sparingly, but what he saved eventually became infested with maggots. Then he thought," This is neither my fate nor my right. It is not fair to rob the maggots of their food. I no longer want it. " He left the meat as food for them, and returned to my ascetic diet of nettles.

 

Another year passed. One day some hunters from Tsa arrived at his cave and demanded the food. Milarepa replied no meat but nettles. So they had made the fire and cooked the nettles. One hunter said, " Even a servant eats his fill and wears warm clothing. There is no man on earth more miserable or pitiful than you."

 

He replied," I was born the most fortunate of men. I have met Lama Marpa of the Southern Cliffs. From him I obtained the instructions, which allow me to attain Buddha-hood in this life and with this body. I have sacrificed food, clothing, and status, thereby destroying the enemies, passion and prejudice, in this life. There is no worldly man braver or with higher aspirations than I. Although you were born in a country in which the teaching of the Buddha has been spread, you have not even the urge to listen to the Dharma. There is no conduct more dangerous than piling up faults little by little, and handful by handful - it fills the depth and duration of hell. Now forever at peace, I shall have supreme bliss and from now on I am assured of happiness. " And with these words they went away.

 

Each year at Kya Ngatsa a great festival was held for the casting of figurines. On this occasion, these hunters sang the Song of the Five Happinesses. His sister Peta, who was begging at the feast, heard the song and knew it was her brother's praises. She wept. Zessay came up to her and conforted her that her brother was alive. After few days, Peta and Zessay,bringing with a full jar of beer,meat, butter and tsampa, and a great deal of beer, arrived at Horse Tooth White Rock.

 

She looked at his brother, Milarepa, from the threshold. His body was wasted by asceticism. His eyes were sunk in their sockets. All his bones protruded. His fleshes were dried out and green. The skin covering his fleshless bones looked like wax. The hair on his body had become coarse and grey. From his head it streamed down in a frightening flood. His limbs were about to fall apart. At this sight, his sister, terrified, thought at first that he might be a ghost, but the words she had heard, " Your brother is dying of starvation,'" made her hesitate.

 

" Are you a man or a ghost? " She asked.

 

" I am Mila Good News." He replied. She recognized his voice and cried. And overcome with feeling, she fainted. After a few moments she recovered consciousness. Peta told him everything about family and how she became a beggar.

 

Peta said, " From whatever point of view one looks at my elder brother, one cannot call him a man. You should ask for alms and little by little eat the food that humans eat. "

 

Milarepa replied," I do not know when I shall die, and I have neither time nor desire to go begging to obtain food. Were I to die of cold, I would have little regret since it would be for religion. The three lower realms are infinitely more terrible than my misery. Many are the beings who seek such suffering. Here is how I shall attain happiness through fulfilment of my aim." Then he sang them a Doha .

 

Buddhism does not teach the use of entheogens as a crutch.

Did you spend years starving, eating only nettles?

Did you do all the hard work that Milarepa did and have such a master as a guru, Marpa?

[Karl]

This is why no matter how 'enlightened' one becomes, when attempting to communicate with words, one must re-enter the dual illusion.  

 

Do you prefer quotes from other Buddhas or realized beings?  Do you prefer your own writings?  No matter who says or writes it, it can't escape ultimately being some dualistic delusional nonsense, as this happens at the instant Reality is replaced by constructs.

 

I appreciate and enjoy the experience of your words brother, even though they inherently can not proxy Reality. 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

Well, then if you cannot rely on words, then even 'enlightenment' is pure fantasy. There is no way anything can be depended upon for anything in particular. You may as well give up.

 

I don't worry about this duality because it isn't reality. You can know reality directly so no conflict exists. I can perceptually experience the universe then construct concepts to create new insights. That's exactly what you do. The writings of Buddah might be useful to mash around, but first there needs to be discernment or I would believe everything I was told or read. I have to be very picky.

 

You are over complicating life by giving it your own brand of mysterious stardust. Life doesn't need it and neither do you. This is what happens when you fall in love and reason takes a back seat. The world begins revolving around one desire and focus to the exclusion of everything else. That's where you are, that's awakening, it's puppy love, an intense crush and a feeling of floating on clouds. Eventually it has to go, it is in effect, just another attachment which you will leave behind as experience grows. Your enlightenment will be as uniquely individual as you are.

[Bud Jetsun]

To best answer your own question, try a large amount of nettle tea brother.  It grows almost everywhere, healthy and minimally toxic even in nutritionally relevant doses, what's to fear in exploring the experience for yourself?

 

Here are other traditional tea herbs with ethnogenic effects, some only when combined.  MAOi's alone offer there own intense ethnogenic experience in adequate doses, but shouldn't be taken without awareness of interaction effects (or just fast the previous day if you want to play it safe). 

 

Rhodiola Rosea (helps precursors get to the brain, dopamine releaser)
Withania Somnifera (relaxant, tonic, regulates aCh)
Mucuna Pruriens (l-dopa, 5-htp, serotonin, 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, Bufotenin)
Tribulus Terrestris (MAOi, raise testosterone, sexual stimulant)
Polygonum Multiflorum (MAO-Bi)
Agnus Castus (Dopamine agonist, prolactin inhibitor)
Hypericum Perforatum (antidepressant, mild MAOi)
Astragalus membranaceus (MAO-Bi)
Codonopsis pilosula (MAO-Bi)
Glycerhiza glabra (Mild MAOI, reduces stress)
Arisaema amurense (MAO-Bi)
Lilium brownii var. colchesteri (MAO-Bi)
Lycium Chinense (MAO-Bi)
Uncaria rhynchophylla (MAO-Bi)
Evodia Rutacarpa (DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Bufotenin)
Griffonia simplicifolia (5-htp)

 

 

Is every regular coffee/tea drinker also fit your term of 'drug addict'? 

 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Bindi]

To best answer your own question, try a large amount of nettle tea brother.  It grows almost everywhere, healthy and minimally toxic even in nutritionally relevant doses, what's to fear in exploring the experience for yourself?

 

Here are other traditional tea herbs with ethnogenic effects, some only when combined.  MAOi's alone offer there own intense ethnogenic experience in adequate doses, but shouldn't be taken without awareness of interaction effects (or just fast the previous day if you want to play it safe). 

 

Rhodiola Rosea (helps precursors get to the brain, dopamine releaser)

Withania Somnifera (relaxant, tonic, regulates aCh)

Mucuna Pruriens (l-dopa, 5-htp, serotonin, 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, Bufotenin)

Tribulus Terrestris (MAOi, raise testosterone, sexual stimulant)

Polygonum Multiflorum (MAO-Bi)

Agnus Castus (Dopamine agonist, prolactin inhibitor)

Hypericum Perforatum (antidepressant, mild MAOi)

Astragalus membranaceus (MAO-Bi)

Codonopsis pilosula (MAO-Bi)

Glycerhiza glabra (Mild MAOI, reduces stress)

Arisaema amurense (MAO-Bi)

Lilium brownii var. colchesteri (MAO-Bi)

Lycium Chinense (MAO-Bi)

Uncaria rhynchophylla (MAO-Bi)

Evodia Rutacarpa (DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Bufotenin)

Griffonia simplicifolia (5-htp)

 

 

Is every regular coffee/tea drinker also fit your term of 'drug addict'? 

 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

It seems that you've made a study of these synergistic plants/entheogens, do you use any of these herb teas as part of your meditation?

[Bud Jetsun]

It seems that you've made a study of these synergistic plants/entheogens, do you use any of these herb teas as part of your meditation?

 

 

Some other fellow was kind enough to compose that list I merely copied. 

 

However, to answer your question, yes.  I shoot for 2 substantial altered meditation experiences per year, for whatever reason I've been too chicken for a 'substantial' experience over a year now, but still feel it's too soon for whatever reason as my mediation continues to bare new fruit unassisted. 

 

We are each here to spend this fleeting moment we call 'life' to gather some experiences that may or may not aid in realizations.  Out of fearing the unknown, I spent the first ~30years of my life "straight-edge" (still never have drank alcohol).   Then perspectives shifted to enable seeing past the stigmas and bias created by those who wish to suppress realization techniques to enable an easy to tame flock of sheeples. 

 

Now if an experience does not do harm to any living being (aside from risk of my own "sanity"), and offers some unique experience of perception, I embrace it for what it is rather than fearing it, and if the time and opportunity is right I choose to see how it impacts meditation.   In the case of something like nettles, first fast a day, then make a tea with a few large handfuls of fresh leaves (the ones near the top are less bitter than the older lower ones), drink all of it and see how your meditation experience shifts deeper than was otherwise been possible with the same level of mindfulness unassisted.

 

Sober mind is not some divine perfect thing, it's typically quite pathetic for most purposes beyond working/driving etc.  Each altered state of perception offers a new vantage point from which to view Reality and the otherwise invisibly obscured "sober mind" biases and filters. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Bindi]

Some other fellow was kind enough to compose that list I merely copied. 

 

However, to answer your question, yes.  I shoot for 2 substantial altered meditation experiences per year, for whatever reason I've been too chicken for a 'substantial' experience over a year now, but still feel it's too soon for whatever reason as my mediation continues to bare new fruit unassisted. 

 

We are each here to spend this fleeting moment we call 'life' to gather some experiences that may or may not aid in realizations.  Out of fearing the unknown, I spent the first ~30years of my life "straight-edge" (still never have drank alcohol).   Then perspectives shifted to enable seeing past the stigmas and bias created by those who wish to suppress realization techniques to enable an easy to tame flock of sheeples. 

 

Now if an experience does not do harm to any living being (aside from risk of my own "sanity"), and offers some unique experience of perception, I embrace it for what it is rather than fearing it, and if the time and opportunity is right I choose to see how it impacts meditation.   In the case of something like nettles, first fast a day, then make a tea with a few large handfuls of fresh leaves (the ones near the top are less bitter than the older lower ones), drink all of it and see how your meditation experience shifts deeper than was otherwise been possible with the same level of mindfulness unassisted.

 

Sober mind is not some divine perfect thing, it's typically quite pathetic for most purposes beyond working/driving etc.  Each altered state of perception offers a new vantage point from which to view Reality and the otherwise invisibly obscured "sober mind" biases and filters. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

I fully agree that it is your right to ingest whatever you like, especially as it does no harm to any living being and only risks your own sanity.

 

But it is also true that the perception you thus attain is most likely an entirely personal experience which is hard to generalise or authentically compare to the definitions in spiritual literature of being awakened or enlightened.

 

I personally disagree that mind is “typically quite pathetic for most purposes beyond working/driving etc”, I perceive mind as a wonderful tool for emotional and energy development all the way through to the dismantling of persona and ego where to my current understanding it then needs to be subdued in service to a higher Reality, and what I perceive as the real start of spiritual development. And I certainly don't consider myself a sober sheeple

 

[Karl]

correction for Gerard:  There is - no mind definable God - when reaching enlightenment beyond mind  - for such a definition by mind, which itself is dualistic in nature can not circumscribe "God" as either existing or not existing per such a tool as the "mind". 

 

Depends what you mean by God.

[3bob]

Gerard said, "no God" and thus through normal interpretation of same meant per dualism of mind which such can not define - either with a no or yes.  (since it or "God" is transcendent to mind)  Btw, the mind of light doesn't have to give itself up completely but to go beyond that it has to be left behind since it cannot reach any further than pure light.  (for only no-thing can fully return) to the Source of such light.

Edited September 20, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

Gerard said, "no God" and thus through normal interpretation of same meant per dualism of mind which such can not define - either with a no or yes. (since it or "God" is transcendent to mind) Btw, the mind of light doesn't have to give itself up completely but to go beyond that it has to be left behind since it cannot reach any further than pure light. (for only no-thing can fully return) to the Source of such light.

I still ask what is meant by God. If it's unknowable then it's unknowable and therefore there isn't any point in mentioning it. If it's knowable then we should be able to discuss what it is with universal commonality and by definition. If it's a great creator, or a bloke on a cloud then we can discount it.

 

I've noticed this hurry into flights of fantasy over the why and how of the thing discussed without ever touching on the what, where or when of a thing. We may just as well be discussing the tone used by the three bears to goldilocks instead of wondering why we have never experienced a talking bear, never mind ones that build houses and make porridge.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Karl

[Orion]

Do you distinguish between awakeness and enlightenment? Or do you see only endless awakeness, and enlightenment no more than a fantasy?

 

They're just words. Placeholders for an experience that cannot be defined semantically, to be honest.

 

You could also call it oneness, true nature, emptiness, god, infinity, the universe, the divine.

[Karl]

The chakras are part of an energy state, and they can all take place in the presence of egoic and mental functions. The energy body is beyond ego and will be there whether you are sinking into present awareness or not.

The brightest, most gold auras I've ever seen have been from practitioners who "step out" during their practice and let their Divine connection guide the operation. Some of them have this talent innately and don't know they're doing it, while for others it is cultivated. The awake ones can operate this way even outside of their targeted spirit work.

Think of it this way. A lot of people have a meditation practice where they sit and experience emptiness or connection, or kundalini, or whatever. Then they get up and go about their day to day lives. But it's a false separation because the meditation never ends. If ego re-engages then you're just doing the ego meditation. Or the sorry meditation. Or whatever million things the mind comes up with.

The crown chakra doesn't necessary indicate an awakened person, but access to an additional layer of one's own energy body. However, I do believe it contains information and spiritual access which may point the ego toward its own redundancy. On the other hand, people who are ungrounded will lack useful insight even if the crown is open, because there will be no earthly realm to connect it all to practical understanding.

 

Have you got any proof at all to substantiate all that ?

 

I quite agree that meditation is simply thinking. That people can be engaged in more or less thoughts, with very different thoughts depending on their current concerns.

 

Also 'practical' understanding seems similar to useful thinking, common sense with a practical value. Is that what you mean ?

[dawei]

First and foremost it seems to me that in enlightenment there must be light, perhaps even an explosion of light within. This light is presumably associated with unity with God/the Cosmos, and direct knowledge from this source. 

 

There is no god when you reach the Source/Tao/Nirvana.

 

Gerard said, "no God" and thus through normal interpretation of same meant per dualism of mind which such can not define - either with a no or yes.  (since it or "God" is transcendent to mind)  Btw, the mind of light doesn't have to give itself up completely but to go beyond that it has to be left behind since it cannot reach any further than pure light.  (for only no-thing can fully return) to the Source of such light.

 

I may be wrong and only  Bindi can correct me... but I read her original point differently.   I read it as she equates God=Cosmos=Source... you can pick a name/label... 

 

If one says:  "There is no god when you reach the Source/Tao/Nirvana."

 

This is just replacing her labels with another set of labels. 

 

If God=Cosmos=Source=Tao=Nirvana is a dualist concept of the mind, what is this a dichotomy with?

 

What does '"God" is transcendent to mind mean'?   That sounded a bit like Christianity transcendence but not sure the meaning?

 

MInd can reach pure light... is pure light a part of dualism of the mind?

[C T]

I may be wrong and only  Bindi can correct me... but I read her original point differently.   I read it as she equates God=Cosmos=Source... you can pick a name/label... 

 

If one says:  "There is no god when you reach the Source/Tao/Nirvana."

 

This is just replacing her labels with another set of labels. 

 

If God=Cosmos=Source=Tao=Nirvana is a dualist concept of the mind, what is this a dichotomy with?

 

What does '"God" is transcendent to mind mean'?   That sounded a bit like Christianity transcendence but not sure the meaning?

 

MInd can reach pure light... is pure light a part of dualism of the mind?

Although it seems like a nice thought to equate Nirvana with some grand notion of Oneness, God, Tao, Cosmic Consciousness etc., in truth, Nirvana is very humble - this term when used within the context of Buddhism simply means 'to blow out' or 'extinction', like blowing out the flame of a candle, or the complete eradication/extinction of karmic propensities, by which time other grand notions no longer will hold any appeal, and the realizer of this becomes free of and from future afflictive conditions that basically cause him or her to be bound to samsara, or the wheel of becoming. When this becoming is cut at the root, the wheel where the illusion of birth originates and seemingly ends with death ceases to spin, and the potentially endless subsequent rebirths comes to a halt. This is basically the condition of Nirvana.

 

Thus, the craving to become can be extinguished as simply as a once burning candle flame, bright and hot one moment, ceases to be in the next when the flame is blown out. If Nirvana is Cosmic in nature, then the blowing of this one flame (analogous to untamed desires) will also bring cessation to all other flames, individuals who share the same propensities, but such is not the case. For this, the doctrine of the Mahayana postulated the bodhisattva ideal so as to allow practitioners of this tradition the opportunity to strengthen their enlightenment potential (bodhichitta) via the combined realisation of wisdom together with the dynamic force of altruistic work (pure compassion which arise spontaneously from the wisdom understanding selflessness, and likewise, wisdom that realises selflessness would naturally give rise to pure compassion, according to Mahayana thought). 

[Nikolai1]

At the intellectual level we have no choice but to stop at stage 2 out of 3. But in our actual deeds in the world, and in our love for the word it is clear when we have moved to stage 3.  Peace and compassion emanate.  We act as if the world is more real than ever...and yet when we speak, pure emptiness is all we can say.

[manitou]

i

Thus, the craving to become can be extinguished as simply as a once burning candle flame, bright and hot one moment, ceases to be in the next when the flame is blown out. If Nirvana is Cosmic in nature, then the blowing of this one flame (analogous to untamed desires) 

 

I'm just picking up on the analogy of this One Flame being untamed desires.  What a beautifully succinct way to put it.

 

I'm seeing the Washington Monument at this moment in my mind.  The monument itself could represent the 'dynamic force of altruistic work', as you put it - if one includes altruistic work to mean our studies, our searching out words from other people and other philosophies - those pieces of other minds that we use to fashion our own spiritual quilt.

 

However, the monument you see in the reflecting pool is another thing all together.  If you're standing at the far end of the reflecting pool and seeing the reflection too, then the reflection represents all the Inner Work necessary for self realization.  I note that the reflection is the same size as the monument.  

[manitou]

MInd can reach pure light... is pure light a part of dualism of the mind?

 

 

Interesting question.  If mind reaches pure light and recognizes pure light, then surely it is dual?

 

If mind reaches pure light and no longer recognizes the light because it is the light, perhaps this is extinction? No separation.

[allinone]

Can dream sometimes be a birth in heaven? I think it can.

[Orion]

I don't think the Vedas talk about Kundalini. Kundalini is part of the Samkhya/Yoga system. The entire system of Indian phenomenology/elemental theory is samkhya.  Don't go conflating these together

 

The paradox of existence... How can you deny your physical existence? Being "awakened" doesn't  prevent you from feeling pain, anger, sorrow etc. You still do...you just don't ascribe the "value" to them as you used to before. You still eat, shit, breath, fart, sleep...

 

I never said that I deny physical existence. Re-read what I wrote.

 

It also doesn't mean that you don't ascribe value to things. Likewise, it doesn't mean that you do ascribe value to things.

 

All that awakeness means is that you are the clear, non-identifying witness to whatever is happening. If ego has dissolved forever, great. If there are still egos popping up, great. Either way, being the witness never changes. If ego was to ascribe values then it will do so, in the presence of the witness.

 

The human condition doesn't end just because you awaken. People misunderstand this because they think awakening means transcendence. You don't actually go anywhere. Nothing changes apart from the unveiling of true identity, which was always there. Nothing is gained. In fact, the term "awakening" is kind of misleading, if we want to get semantic about it. It implies that a dormant part of you becomes conscious or realized, when actually the entire process is about letting go. That's why trying to awaken is kind of contradictory. You already are awake, right now, and whatever transitory states, stories, or narratives you're identifying with as real are the reasons for not simply living as the witness (a witness that you always are, regardless).

 

If I had to pick an analogy, I like the classic ocean and the waves theory. The waves are egoic fluctuations and temporary states, whereas the ocean beneath is the unchanging witness. In my case, all the waves went away for a time due to suffering and intense illness. There simply wasn't any energy to engage in identity consciousness, so the truth of its holographic nature became crystal clear. Now, regardless if ego arises or not, I am that witness. So the question is... if you identify as the waves, does that mean you're no longer the ocean? Of course not. It just means you're the ocean that's observing an attached consciousness to the waves, but you're always the ocean. Awakeness means you always come from the oceanic perspective. Some claim it means that the waves cease forever and you are just the ocean. I still notice egoic states coming and going but somehow the witness never stops seeing it. And in being the witness, it often causes egos to continually disappear. All it takes it realizing that, "Hey, I'm not that, I'm not anything", and poof, they're gone. It's part of the duality that comes with awakeness. Everything has a simultaneous real/unreal quality about it. Nobody is in here doing anything, yet things are seemingly happening. It all arises and dissolves without any input from a self though, is the point.

 

I still eat, breathe, shit, fart, laugh, cry, get angry, etc. As the witness, it's clear that you're not responsible for the arising and dissolving of these things. And it never ends. All these things just arise from the One which I don't care to try and understand or claim victory over because this moment is all that's happening and there are no other requirements. Awakeness doesn't mean the end of form, it means the end of self in form. From my casual observations of humanity, it seems that most people aren't getting it because they are afraid to die, but what they don't realize is that their causal identity isn't real in the first place.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Orion

[Karl]

I'd like to correct some things I said in that post. I was in a hurry when I wrote it.

 

I can't claim that kundalini awakening isn't awakening. It's just not how it happened for me. I had kundalini my whole life and it brought many different states of awareness, but it took losing everything, including self-concept, in the preparation for bodily death, that made me realize true nature.

 

What I meant by practical understanding is that without root, it's difficult to embody the values and discern true from fiction. A person with an open third eye is still going to have trouble discerning if they're ungrounded, because they'll be stuck in the abstract realm of the upper chakras. It's my strong opinion (based on my own experience), that we need this physical body for realization. People with developed upper chakras but weak lower chakras tend to be caught in the myth that awakening means transcendence, so they're always trying to go "up" somewhere. Yes there are other realms beyond the physical and beyond the human, but if you're still stuck in identity/ego consciousness then you'll just be adding more layers to it wherever you think you're going. It also tends to get caught up in feeling bliss, i.e. bliss = awakening, because kundalini can feel so good.

 

Awakeness is right here. It doesn't get any better than this present moment. You don't need to know what chakras are to be awakened, but maybe chakras will be part of your awakening somehow. I don't know. Suffering is a well worn spiritual path and that's how it unfolded for me, but I've met a few other awake people for whom it didn't happen this way. I dunno... it's spontaneous. I make no claims about how it all works, as I'm not responsible for my own awakening.

 

How are you defining awakened ?

 

All this stuff about Chakras and bliss mean nothing at all to me. They aren't part of any experience I'm aware of and neither is Kundalini or bliss.

 

You believe that the body is simply a vessel for realisation, but not what you define as realisation ?

 

Neither do I know what you mean by 'realms beyond the human' ? There are plenty of places where humans aren't within the universe for certain. Is that what you mean ?

[Tibetan_Ice]

How are you defining awakened ?

 

All this stuff about Chakras and bliss mean nothing at all to me. They aren't part of any experience I'm aware of and neither is Kundalini or bliss.

 

You believe that the body is simply a vessel for realisation, but not what you define as realisation ? Neither do I know what you mean by 'realms beyond the human' ? There are plenty of places where humans aren't within the universe for certain. Is that what you mean ?

 

Well, that explains it Karl. 

[Karl]

Well, that explains it Karl. 

 

But you haven't explained it, managed to define it, or demonstrated it. You have a bunch of concepts for which there are no clear definitions beyond feelings. If I push you, then you will tell me that you just know and all the books tell you these things are real. You are not applying critical thinking to your practices because the gurus, books, feelings tell you that these things will slow/stop your spiritual progress. Yet you do not ask 'what' is spiritual progress, what are these practices doing, what are the purposes of them ? You have accepted the premises without a shred of doubt. I did the same thing.