Split from Awakening versus enlightenment

[Orion]

It doesn't mean the loss of anything, it just means being the witness to what is happening. Fear still happens, along with all the other emotions... they're just part of the meat. But because attachment to them is non-existent, they rapidly dissipate. Or maybe not. You could be on a torture rack (which is what happened to me, basically), and it's so apparent that you're not doing anything. You could be screaming in pain but you're the witness watching the screaming happening... the entire self-concept is in agony and you're acutely aware it's just arising on its own, just like the situation itself. There's no "you" in it.

 

I mean... people in the world still call me by my name, by my title. They ascribe characteristics to who they think I am. I may even internalize these characteristics temporarily... but there's no "me" to be found in any of that. It's just present awareness, liberation, love.

Fear is useful, it shouldn't be dismissed because it doesn't jive with notions of enlightenment. If the meat becomes incapable of feeling fear then it is subject to more danger, which could mean the end of your enlightened existence. Not that that really matters.

 

Whether or not identity is happening, is irrelevant to being the witness which watches identity. Identity is part of the meat, so that it can conceptualize surroundings and its relation to them, and form behaviors accordingly. One minute identity is there alongside the witness, the next it's gone and there's just the witness. Whatever you identify with or identify as, is all taking place in stillness. The talk of future lives or whatever else... is just a postponement of a plan to be still at another time, when stillness is here in this moment. I know I'm describing a lot of components here, but it's all one thing. The separation of these things is something that mind does, but mind can never really get it.

 

Let me put it this way. This witness has ALWAYS been with you, from birth til now. It'll be all that's there in your final moments of life. Think about babies... they come into the world empty, then people tell you a story about how "you're a you", and this is your gender, and here's what your gender likes, and children go to school, and school is good because you can make a career, etc. All these concepts go poof in the void, including the conversation about it. The more you talk about it and try to understand it semantically, the less you see it's already happening. And that's okay! Because you're it anyway. lol

 

The best advice I've even been given, is:

 

Just.

 

Stop.

 

It's not about focusing harder, or trying. If you're trying, then you're not getting it. It's already happening, right now. Paradoxically, its realization requires you to do nothing to get it. When I first awakened, one of the most challenging things I experienced was, "What do I do with this???" , because my life pattern has been that of achievement and constantly doing. And the overriding embodied feeling was, "Absolutely nothing." It's why people like Eckart Tolle went and sat in a park doing nothing for a huge period of time. When you awaken, there's nothing to do about it. (I find that the awakeness has an evolutionary capacity, but we'll save that for another discussion. ) The doing consciousness is arising from the stillness, it's not separate from it. If you're trying to be still, then you're trying to be still while stillness is already happening. It's no different than someone racing to work in rush hour -- that takes place in stillness too. Or awakeness. Whatever you want to call it. That's what I mean by, you can't get anymore into it than you already are right now. It's not a spiritual ladder, it's just the now.

 

Just.

 

Stop.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Orion

[3bob]

What humans? (...as if they were somehow an independent thinker or mind)

 

Bud, why do you insist on having your human and eating it to?

Edited September 26, 2015 by 3bob

[Bindi]

It doesn't mean the loss of anything, it just means being the witness to what is happening. Fear still happens, along with all the other emotions... they're just part of the meat. But because attachment to them is non-existent, they rapidly dissipate. Or maybe not. You could be on a torture rack (which is what happened to me, basically), and it's so apparent that you're not doing anything. You could be screaming in pain but you're the witness watching the screaming happening... the entire self-concept is in agony and you're acutely aware it's just arising on its own, just like the situation itself. There's no "you" in it.

 

I mean... people in the world still call me by my name, by my title. They ascribe characteristics to who they think I am. I may even internalize these characteristics temporarily... but there's no "me" to be found in any of that. It's just present awareness, liberation, love.

 

Fear is useful, it shouldn't be dismissed because it doesn't jive with notions of enlightenment. If the meat becomes incapable of feeling fear then it is subject to more danger, which could mean the end of your enlightened existence. Not that that really matters.

 

Whether or not identity is happening, is irrelevant to being the witness which watches identity. Identity is part of the meat, so that it can conceptualize surroundings and its relation to them, and form behaviors accordingly. One minute identity is there alongside the witness, the next it's gone and there's just the witness. Whatever you identify with or identify as, is all taking place in stillness. The talk of future lives or whatever else... is just a postponement of a plan to be still at another time, when stillness is here in this moment. I know I'm describing a lot of components here, but it's all one thing. The separation of these things is something that mind does, but mind can never really get it.

 

Let me put it this way. This witness has ALWAYS been with you, from birth til now. It'll be all that's there in your final moments of life. Think about babies... they come into the world empty, then people tell you a story about how "you're a you", and this is your gender, and here's what your gender likes, and children go to school, and school is good because you can make a career, etc. All these concepts go poof in the void, including the conversation about it. The more you talk about it and try to understand it semantically, the less you see it's already happening. And that's okay! Because you're it anyway. lol

 

The best advice I've even been given, is:

 

Just.

 

Stop.

 

It's not about focusing harder, or trying. If you're trying, then you're not getting it. It's already happening, right now. Paradoxically, its realization requires you to do nothing to get it. When I first awakened, one of the most challenging things I experienced was, "What do I do with this???" , because my life pattern has been that of achievement and constantly doing. And the overriding embodied feeling was, "Absolutely nothing." It's why people like Eckart Tolle went and sat in a park doing nothing for a huge period of time. When you awaken, there's nothing to do about it. (I find that the awakeness has an evolutionary capacity, but we'll save that for another discussion. ) The doing consciousness is arising from the stillness, it's not separate from it. If you're trying to be still, then you're trying to be still while stillness is already happening. It's no different than someone racing to work in rush hour -- that takes place in stillness too. Or awakeness. Whatever you want to call it. That's what I mean by, you can't get anymore into it than you already are right now. It's not a spiritual ladder, it's just the now.

 

Just.

 

Stop.

By Witness do you mean Higher Self?

 

I perceive my Higher Self as very actively drawing my consciousness up through my chakras, to learn, to be refined, and to clear the path for consciousness and kundalini to ultimately break through fully to ajna chakra.

 

It's a very different path to the one you are on, to stop now and imagine I was there already would be to fall short of my goal. I don't get 'awakened', though I aim for 'enlightened'.

[Karl]

Karl, you are trying to drag a nonduality experience back into duality and then label the experience.

The fact is that when Manitou experienced the golden tunnel, there was no identity, but upon return from the experience, the normal personal identity resumes and then interprets and overlays its concepts over top of the experience.

Your statement that if there was no identity that there would be nothing at all is false.

If Manitou had remained at the source and never returned, dissolving her body and mind into light she would have lost her personal identity, but would have become all identities including those beyond space and time.

I deliberately didn't pursue this further because I detected a bit of resistance in Manitou, but as you have brought it back up.

 

Manitou remembers she was in the Golden tunnel and so she is identified with it. If there had been no identity, then there would have been no experience and no memory of it.

 

I remember a film, or a dream, but during the film or dream I was not aware of myself. My awareness was on the film, or dream. Don't confuse not having an awareness of self with not having identity.

 

Manitou did not experience death during tantric sex, she experienced life. Death has no experience. To be afraid of death is pointless as there is nothing, to be afraid of dying is natural and shouldn't be rejected, or you refuse to affirm life.

 

Live then die. Definitely live first. Don't seek to die prior to death.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Karl

[Aaron]

I've experienced nondualism and I'm still an ass, that's the difference between awakening and enlightenment. 

[manitou]

 

Manitou did not experience death during tantric sex, she experienced life. Death has no experience. To be afraid of death is pointless as there is nothing, to be afraid of dying is natural and shouldn't be rejected, or you refuse to affirm life.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I said I experienced death - I just said it felt like home.  But because it was at such an extreme and felt so BASIC - I don't see anything wrong with holding this experience in the mind as a place I can return to upon physical dissolution.  I am no doubt living in illusion with this, but if it takes away fear of death I don't really see the harm in it.  Do you?

 

I wish the same loss of fear for you too, Karl.

Edited September 26, 2015 by manitou

[Karl]

I'm not sure I said I experienced death - I just said it felt like home.  But because it was at such an extreme and felt so BASIC - I don't see anything wrong with holding this experience in the mind as a place I can return to upon physical dissolution.  I am no doubt living in illusion with this, but if it takes away fear of death I don't really see the harm in it.  Do you?

 

I wish the same loss of fear for you too, Karl.

 

It wasn't experienced during actual physical death, therefore, it is an illusion. Why dream that when you know it is a dream ? You will create internal conflict. Isn't it your wish to wake up and be enlightened ? How can you when you allow the illusions you create to exist.

 

If you simply wish not to face unpleasantness then I wish you well, that is entirely your choice, it is perhaps too much for you to cope with, but if you want to see reality then you must be brave. It is harsher to stop taking the mental pain killers, especially in the beginning, but you will be clearer and you will know the truth because you will never again allow anything but that truth to exist. That is purity of soul. That is action-less action. When there is no conflict, there is no false ego necessary to pretend to do those actions.

 

I do no fear of death Manitou for there is nothing beyond it, but I certainly have a healthy fear of dying and I wish to keep it that way in order that I remember how to live life to the full and love endlessly.

[3bob]

Karl, Why do you bring your shrink show here, you wouldn't want to force it on anyone would you?  Are you feeling compassion for all of us that reason has passed by and trying to help us out of our delusions?

 

It's somewhat strange to some of us that you are so inexperienced in regards to the general context and content of this site (although you do make half-baked presumptions about same while looking from the outside-in via your failed explorations related to same) but that is the wonder of a "Karl" isn't it...

 

What is beyond "death" is Spirit that was never born and will never die... obviously mind can not wrap mind around that fact except perhaps in concepts, and granted concepts and or subjective experiences mentioned by another will never be enough proof for oneself - yet that does not mean for one to fanatically throw the baby out with the bath water as you have so willingly demonstrated as being your pre-emptive method when it comes to that which you refuse to be open to.  Still, go in peace and find your flock, thus "live and let live"... for it is at least futile (among other things) to try and ruffle the feathers of birds that don't flock together.

Edited September 26, 2015 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

I do no fear of death Manitou for there is nothing beyond it, but I certainly have a healthy fear of dying and I wish to keep it that way in order that I remember how to live life to the full and love endlessly.

Karl, are you saying that there is no reincarnation? That there are no other planes, buddhafields, heaven/hell? That when Buddha declared that he had finally broken out of the endless samsaric cycle of birth and death that he was wrong?

Don't you know that nirvikalpa samadhi is a form of death and if you stay away too long you can't come back to your body?

[Karl]

Karl, Why do you bring your shrink show here, you wouldn't want to force it on anyone would you?  Are you feeling compassion for all of us that reason has passed by and trying to help us out of our delusions?

 

It's somewhat strange to some of us that you are so inexperienced in regards to the general context and content of this site (although you do make half-baked presumptions about same while looking from the outside-in via your failed explorations related to same) but that is the wonder of a "Karl" isn't it...

 

What is beyond "death" is Spirit that was never born and will never die... obviously mind can not wrap mind around that fact except perhaps in concepts, and granted concepts and or subjective experiences mentioned by another will never be enough proof for oneself - yet that does not mean for one to fanatically throw the baby out with the bath water as you have so willingly demonstrated as being your pre-emptive method when it comes to that which you refuse to be open to.  Still, go in peace and find your flock, thus "live and let live"... for it is at least futile (among other things) to try and ruffle the feathers of birds that don't flock together.

 

Its not 'shrink'. I see a statement which is in conflict with an aim and then speak to that. Is that not a help ? If someone points out that a bridge will collapse if it is crossed then shouldn't the bystander try and warn the one who wishes to cross ?

 

What is strange to me is that you are unable to notice your own hypocrisy. You have opened with an ad hominem and then expound your argument based on an insult.

 

It is simple deduction that there is no life after death. You have failed to define spirit, but a suspect you mean a disembodied soul/ ghost/ collective consciousness that is most definitely not the embodiment of the living persons identity. If this is so, then why even consider it as important. There will be no identity, nothing to be conscious of, it may as well be nothing even if you continue to believe it's something.

 

I'm saying to live 'in the moment' and not concern yourself with making up stories about what the future may, or may not be. It will certainly be what it will be regardless of any such way that you might think today. If I point out that you are not living in the moment then I get this kind of reaction. It's like a stranger who points the way to a place, only to be abused for answering.

 

If it ruffles feathers then that is fine. There is no violence in feather ruffling and no pain should be taken from it. The false ego is upset of course because it has mapped out a delusion that is challenged.

[Karl]

Karl, are you saying that there is no reincarnation? That there are no other planes, buddhafields, heaven/hell? That when Buddha declared that he had finally broken out of the endless samsaric cycle of birth and death that he was wrong?

Don't you know that nirvikalpa samadhi is a form of death and if you stay away too long you can't come back to your body?

It does not matter what I say, only what can be proven.

 

The endless cycle of birth and death is for the living, those that can contemplate it, can know it. Those who cannot will not see what is right in front of them and continually look for the answer somewhere else- thus continuing the cycle. You don't understand because you don't want to, you haven't had a sufficiency of those cycles to want to be rid of them.

 

Buddah said the words and you interpreted them to mean something that fitted your own concepts. We are of course free of all cycles upon death, but then, all is ended so why concern yourself with it ?

 

Lots of people lose their minds. It can be done temporarily, or through trauma. Once that has occurred then any hope of normal function vanishes. A body without a mind isn't anything much and has lost the ability to choose. It is less than an animal. This is why dementia, Alzheimer's etc is so frightening. Losing ones mind is not something to welcome.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Karl

[Tibetan_Ice]

It does not matter what I say, only what can be proven.

 

The endless cycle of birth and death is for the living, those that can contemplate it, can know it. Those who cannot will not see what is right in front of them and continually look for the answer somewhere else- thus continuing the cycle. You don't understand because you don't want to, you haven't had a sufficiency of those cycles to want to be rid of them.

 

Buddah said the words and you interpreted them to mean something that fitted your own concepts. We are of course free of all cycles upon death, but then, all is ended so why concern yourself with it ?

 

Lots of people lose their minds. It can be done temporarily, or through trauma. Once that has occurred then any hope of normal function vanishes. A body without a mind isn't anything much and has lost the ability to choose. It is less than an animal. This is why dementia, Alzheimer's etc is so frightening. Losing ones mind is not something to welcome.

Ramana said not to be concerned with reincarnation and that seems to be the party line you are towing here.

Buddhists refer to the alaya, which continues from one life to the next.

It is obvious that you have not examined this topic closely.

[3bob]

Karl, Your attempted shrink show goes on... and some have kindly and helpfully (and or critically and not so kindly) pointed out your particular forms of delusion to you which you refuse to even imagine seeing - yet you are welcome to beat your head against the wall mistaking such for reason and insight but a problem is that you're repeatedly splashing blood and grey matter all over the place through such beatings which is at least unseemly - and which any truly reasonable person would have seen by now !

Edited September 26, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

Ramana said not to be concerned with reincarnation and that seems to be the party line you are towing here.

Buddhists refer to the alaya, which continues from one life to the next.

It is obvious that you have not examined this topic closely.

 

Buddhists are not Buddah. They are an interpretation of what they think Buddah said. Buddah is also a man. All men are prone to error. Buddah was equally prone to the same errors as other men.

[Karl]

Karl, Your attempted shrink show goes on... and we have kindly and helpfully (and also critically) pointed out your particular forms of delusion to you which you refuse to even imagine seeing - yet you are welcome to beat your head against the wall mistaking such for reason and insight but a problem is that you're repeatedly splashing blood and grey matter all over the place which is at least unseemly - which any truly reasonable person would have seen by now !

 

You present no argument. All I hear is the bleating of a goat.

 

 

[Brian]

It does not matter what I say, only what can be proven.

<snip>

Matters to whom?

 

Personally, I would say it matters not a whit what can be proven but rather what is. The former is a miniscule subset of the latter.

[Karl]

Matters to whom?

Personally, I would say it matters not a whit what can be proven but rather what is. The former is a miniscule subset of the latter.

 

Same thing. What is = reality. That's why it's necessary that it is proven, otherwise it remains a theory and not reality and therefore not 'what is'.

[3bob]

is that why you are here Karl for the sake of argument?  Take that away then what are you, "less than an animal" or should I say even a bleating goat ? 

Edited September 26, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

is that why you are here Karl for the sake of argument?  Take that away then what are you, "less than an animal"? 

 

Why are you asking me that question. That's rhetorical.

 

What I can prove I can prove. Everything else is learning. Despite what you might think I get a lot out of these arguments if they don't devolve into slagging matches, or posting other people's opinions as proof of concept.

 

You patently wish to persevere with your argument with me, so you are getting something out of the transaction.

[doc benway]

What I can prove I can prove. 

 

Hi Karl,

I don't mean to be argumentative but I am curious about what you think you can prove and how to go about that in the spiritual realm.

Warm regards,

Steve

[doc benway]

Buddhists are not Buddah. 

As a matter of fact, Buddhists are Buddha, by definition.

They are just in a state of confusion and delusion in their present manifestation.

That does not negate their Buddhahood, only obscures it.

[Karl]

Hi Karl,

I don't mean to be argumentative but I am curious about what you think you can prove and how to go about that in the spiritual realm.

Warm regards,

Steve

 

Depends how you define spiritual realm Steve and you have every right to be argumentative :-)

[Karl]

As a matter of fact, Buddhists are Buddha, by definition.

They are just in a state of confusion and delusion in their present manifestation.

That does not negate their Buddhahood, only obscures it.

 

Only by their own definition. I'm a cat but for my continual delusion that I'm human. Damned hair balls on the touch screen.

[doc benway]

Only by their own definition. I'm a cat but for my continual delusion that I'm human. Damned hair balls on the touch screen.

If you don't allow Buddha to define Buddhism, what definition would you accept?

Your example of cat is not applicable as it is not at all comparable to the concept of Buddhahood.

[doc benway]

Depends how you define spiritual realm Steve and you have every right to be argumentative :-)

Feel free to choose your own definition if you care to answer.

While I may have the right to be argumentative, I find it tends to take me in a direction I prefer to avoid.