Split from Awakening versus enlightenment

[Karl]

The trick is not to label something as good or bad.

 

Or negative and positive.

[Karl]

ultimately (and obviously) we are connected in the world, from the most subtle Source that can't be pinned down to the most thick as a brick element

 

a molecule of water is not alone in an ocean of water, also the nature of water will continue on while a particular stone only lasts so long in a river.

 

Water, is an element and therefore homogenous. Humans and not.

[doc benway]

I'm not at all painting learning from others as a weakness. That's your false egoic perception cooking off.

We'll have to disagree on this point. I'm simply sharing my perspective of your commentary.

 

Instead of trying to see the truth you are switching to defence and trying to win because you think that this is a competition. A contest.You are fighting a war with yourself, see it, know it.

I wonder if you see the extent to which you are commenting on your own posts while projecting onto mine?

It certainly seems that way from my perspective.

Perhaps I'm coming across as competitive or defensive on this thread but I'm really not feeling either.

 

I'm sharing my point of view regarding my path and my experience and not trying to comment on or denigrate yours, as you really haven't shared anything about your own.

I'm also comfortable pointing out when I disagree with your statements about MY experience. 

My objective is to share my experience so that others have a balanced perspective as our opinions differ.

 

 

A baby relies on its parents to feed and care for it. There is a point at which the baby is no longer a baby and will switch on its own caring skills. I also have many thousands of books that I have learned from and I don't know of any another way to absorb concentrated mental nutrition-but not all of it is good. Eventually we walk on our own and can hopefully discriminate good mind food, from bad. This can be frightening. Like a bird thrown out of the nest, someone genuinely searching will reach the only conclusion possible. That, ultimately, there is only ourselves and we are alone in the world. No one can show us the way, there is no red pill we can take other than the decision to simply wake up and see what we have been so afraid to know-that for us, there are no 'others' that, in a sense, everybody else is an illusion. The only good mind food is that which we grow and tend for ourselves, otherwise we live by another's mantra. That's a decision we have to make.

Yes, I get all of that. I've been through that process in fact, and it remains a part of my view, but only a part.

One of my earliest spiritual teachers preached that aspect of the truth very convincingly - J Krishnamurti. 

It was an important realization for me - I can remember the exact moment that it clicked, I was on a bus going to the airport in Seattle reading To Be Human and had that sudden, powerful insight about the critical role of personal and independent investigation and effort - but I currently see that view as incomplete.

You are free to disagree, as you made clear we each walk our own path and have our own, unique view, and it's important to acknowledge that will change for each of us over time as long as 'we remain open to the new' as K would have put it. 

 

I'm in a very different place now. I'm in a place where I am able to think, learn, and act independently without that fear you refer to. I am able to continue to think and act independently within a traditional framework that supports that independence.

That personal work that no one can help me with is, and always will be, the central practice and that can be and is supported by my teacher, his lineage, the teachings, and our spiritual community. 

 

And I've come to a very different conclusion than yours - that we're not alone in this world, we are rich with the support of other beings, be they people, animals, natural spirits, our environment, whatever our frame of reference contains. And sometimes they can provide us with challenges rather than support but even those challenges can be taken as our path and can support our growth. And those others are all very meaningful to me, in fact they are infinitely more important than the 'me' that continually tries to exert its importance in my thoughts.

 

You see, the fear you are referring to comes from the very presence of 'me' that sees itself as alone, as separate, as a self. 

That 'me' is the fundamental error and a very powerful method for correcting that error (letting go of the identification with 'me', and transcending that fear) is in feeling and cultivating the depth of our connection with others. My teacher is frequently reminding us that our time together (when we gather for teachings)is not so much about us gathering information, learning new mantras, prayers, or practices, rather our time together needs to be more about learning how to connect with each other in a meaningful way, how to be open, how to feel that warmth that comes from the openness and connection. That very openness and connection is at the heart of the awakening and enlightenment we are discussing in this thread, in my view.

 

 

I could say 'it's all good' and therefore just keep going, if that satisfies you, but you have specifically asked me to comment. Do I ignore you ? tell you only what you wish to hear ? Agree wholeheartedly ? Lie ? If you want honesty that is what I'm giving, if you do not wish to know, then do not ask and that will save us both a lot of time.

No need to placate or patronize me.

Respond to me as you see fit and I will do you the same courtesy.

I appreciate your honesty and to the extent that you are genuinely trying to help me on my path, which I think you are, I sincerely appreciate your help.

Your comments have already stimulated me to look at my view a bit more deeply and I do think they have been helpful.

Warm regards...

[3bob]

the song that made the universe of galaxies and various energies also made human beings, granted certain specializations and some independent aspects and possibilities are in effect for humans but bottom line separation is not.

[manitou]

the song that made the universe of galaxies and various energies also made human beings, granted certain specializations and some independent aspects and possibilities are in effect for humans but bottom line separation is not.

 

 

That reminds me of a couple wonderful things.

 

First of all, that we are 99.9% space - that only one tenth of a percent of our mass is what we would call 'solid', if you factor in the relative size of the atomic particles with the full active dimension of the atom.  I think that's just incredible.  It's like we're not even here at all.  Nothing else is either.  We're a bunch of hungry ghosts.

 

The other wonderful thing is that the only thing that differentiates what determines whether a cell is going to be a bone cell, or a hair cell, or a skin cell, or any cell in the human body - is how it aligns at the time the fetus is formed!  There is initially no difference between a bone cell or a blood cell - only the initial alignment of the cells in the womb.

 

For some reason, these two things assure me of the illusory nature of life.  In fact, because we are so un-dense in reality, who's to say there isn't another 'world full of people' taking up this very space at this very time?  Only we just don't have the particular configuration of rods and cones to see that reality?

Edited September 28, 2015 by manitou

[3bob]

Hi Manitou. Nice comment although I would use the words temporary along with changeable for form instead of illusory, which to me is another one of those often beat up words like empty, and nothing. For if something within the One is inherently illusory then by inference, connection and association so is the nature of The One and the nature of unchanging Tao that gave it birth.

[seekingbuddha]

Just  a remainder - let us not to be derailed by  personalities who are yet to mature in mind.   Ego filled mind is  intent on having the last word,  rather than being intent on learning and being open to the idea that it maybe wrong.  This thread went off topic once before  with primitive application of logic/reasoning.  Ignoring wisdom of human experience happened to me too, when i was younger.   Hopefully participation in this forum will bring about needed change and happiness.....

[Karl]

the song that made the universe of galaxies and various energies also made human beings, granted certain specializations and some independent aspects and possibilities are in effect for humans but bottom line separation is not.

 

What are these 'certain specialisations, independent aspects and possibilities' then ? ;-)

 

You are holding two conflicting concepts.

[Karl]

Just  a remainder - let us not to be derailed by  personalities who are yet to mature in mind.   Ego filled mind is  intent on having the last word,  rather than being intent on learning and being open to the idea that it maybe wrong.  This thread went off topic once before  with primitive application of logic/reasoning.  Ignoring wisdom of human experience happened to me too, when i was younger.   Hopefully participation in this forum will bring about needed change and happiness.....

 

The irony is strong here.

[Karl]

 

 

 

 

 

And I've come to a very different conclusion than yours - that we're not alone in this world, we are rich with the support of other beings, be they people, animals, natural spirits, our environment, whatever our frame of reference contains. And sometimes they can provide us with challenges rather than support but even those challenges can be taken as our path and can support our growth. And those others are all very meaningful to me, in fact they are infinitely more important than the 'me' that continually tries to exert its importance in my thoughts.

 

You see, the fear you are referring to comes from the very presence of 'me' that sees itself as alone, as separate, as a self. 

That 'me' is the fundamental error and a very powerful method for correcting that error (letting go of the identification with 'me', and transcending that fear) is in feeling and cultivating the depth of our connection with others.

 

 

 

Except you haven't come to one conclusion. As shown by your conflicting conclusions.

 

Either you are alone and have independent identity (as has everything else), or you believe you are alone because there is anything apart from you (letting go of identification).

 

You cannot logically be both alone and not alone.

 

I am alone, self identified and interacting with other beings and objects that have identity. No conflict occurs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Karl]

That reminds me of a couple wonderful things.

 

First of all, that we are 99.9% space - that only one tenth of a percent of our mass is what we would call 'solid', if you factor in the relative size of the atomic particles with the full active dimension of the atom.  I think that's just incredible.  It's like we're not even here at all.  Nothing else is either.  We're a bunch of hungry ghosts.

 

The other wonderful thing is that the only thing that differentiates what determines whether a cell is going to be a bone cell, or a hair cell, or a skin cell, or any cell in the human body - is how it aligns at the time the fetus is formed!  There is initially no difference between a bone cell or a blood cell - only the initial alignment of the cells in the womb.

 

For some reason, these two things assure me of the illusory nature of life.  In fact, because we are so un-dense in reality, who's to say there isn't another 'world full of people' taking up this very space at this very time?  Only we just don't have the particular configuration of rods and cones to see that reality?

 

But we are here Manitou. No matter how much you try to intellectually dismiss your existence. There is no illusion except the one you are creating for yourself.

 

There is nothing to stop there being a 'world full of people', but you don't believe there is anything anyway, that it's all illusion, so why are you thinking about perception of senses, or the world of physics ?

[doc benway]

Except you haven't come to one conclusion. As shown by your conflicting conclusions. Either you are alone and have independent identity (as has everything else), or you believe you are alone because there is anything apart from you (letting go of identification). You cannot logically be both alone and not alone. I am alone, self identified and interacting with other beings and objects that have identity. No conflict occurs.

In your conclusion here, you will invariably come into conflict with all of those other beings...

This is the very source of conflict in our world in my view.

Krishnamurti calls this the source of violence.

The Buddhists refer to this as the source of all suffering - ignorance (I don't mean to be insulting).

 

We'll simply have to disagree.

Being is not restricted to logic, logic is the limited realm of the thinker, the 'me'

 

I'll close on this topic with a quote from a wonderful poet and spiritual being named John O'Donohue.

I've posted this before and hope it could be helpful here for some, it has been for me:

 

"And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

[manitou]

But we are here Manitou. No matter how much you try to intellectually dismiss your existence. There is no illusion except the one you are creating for yourself. There is nothing to stop there being a 'world full of people', but you don't believe there is anything anyway, that it's all illusion, so why are you thinking about perception of senses, or the world of physics ?

 

 

I'm not denying existence, I'm noticing the airy quality of it.  Can you see it?  Have you ever read the Daodejing and noticed that the function of the Dao is reversion?  Reversion to itself, through the One to the void?  I like aligning myself with the Dao, that's all. When we do that, there's no need for argument at all.  Discussion and observation, yes.  Argumentation, no.  We are not separate from each other, we are the One Life that is manifesting on this planet, which is also part of the One Life.  We need to build each other up, not tear each other down for egoic gratification.

 

'Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself', as Steve's quote above said.  When someone has done this for a long time, searched their inner reactions and found the source for the unwanted reaction, then the love shines between the words because the ego has been tamped down and mastered.   There is no ego that gets in the way between the people talking.  There are those on this forum - CT, Steve, and others - you can see the love shining between their words because they've gone through the process of inner examination and continue to do so with every encounter.

 

Maybe if you read some other masters you would get this concept more clearly?

Edited September 28, 2015 by manitou

[Karl]

In your conclusion here, you will invariably come into conflict with all of those other beings...

This is the very source of conflict in our world in my view.

Krishnamurti calls this the source of violence.

The Buddhists refer to this as the source of all suffering - ignorance (I don't mean to be insulting).

 

We'll simply have to disagree.

Being is not restricted to logic, logic is the limited realm of the thinker, the 'me'

 

I'll close on this topic with a quote from a wonderful poet and spiritual being named John O'Donohue.

I've posted this before and hope it could be helpful here for some, it has been for me:

 

"And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

Of course I come into conflict with other objects, just so as I don't come into conflict with my own thoughts.

This is what you don't understand and a performing mental somersaults to try and create harmony.

The sweetness of the Apple is not in the Apple. It is our thoughts which are conflicting and not the objects outside of thought. What you are trying to do is to make the real world conform to your conflicted thinking.

It is no surprise to me that we disagree, but for you this is in direct conflict with your beliefs, because you have, yourself, come into conflict with an object-me.

 

That poem is wonderful by the way. It points out exactly what I have been saying. That the contradictions are internal disputes, or disputes between existence and the minds experience of existence. If you hold two contradicting concepts then one must go. That is what logic is about and that is what your poem reflects.

 

The taste of the Apple is not in the Apple. That was the clue that was left in Buddhist philosophy. If you think that means that you should dispute the seperate existence of the Apple, or yourself, then you got it wrong.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Karl

[Karl]

I'm not denying existence, I'm noticing the airy quality of it.  Can you see it?  Have you ever read the Daodejing and noticed that the function of the Dao is reversion?  Reversion to itself, through the One to the void?  I like aligning myself with the Dao, that's all. When we do that, there's no need for argument at all.  Discussion and observation, yes.  Argumentation, no.  We are not separate from each other, we are the One Life that is manifesting on this planet, which is also part of the One Life.  We need to build each other up, not tear each other down for egoic gratification.

 

'Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself', as Steve's quote above said.  When someone has done this for a long time, searched their inner reactions and found the source for the unwanted reaction, then the love shines between the words because the ego has been tamped down and mastered.   There is no ego that gets in the way between the people talking.  There are those on this forum - CT, Steve, and others - you can see the love shining between their words because they've gone through the process of inner examination and continue to do so with every encounter.

 

Maybe if you read some other masters you would get this concept more clearly?

 

I see existence directly Manitou. I choose to see it. You are seeing it how you wish to see it-as airy, or light. I approve of it, just as it is and do not add to it.

 

There is no 'tearing each other down'. This is in your mind, it isn't real. That there are bad operators in the world is just reality. They have to be resisted-not just by a passivity which wishes them away and hopes for a life of death, before death even takes the body.

 

The young have egoic gratification, the old have no time left for it ;-)

 

I am my own master.

[manitou]

I see existence directly Manitou. I choose to see it. You are seeing it how you wish to see it-as airy, or light. I approve of it, just as it is and do not add to it. There is no 'tearing each other down'. This is in your mind, it isn't real. That there are bad operators in the world is just reality. They have to be resisted-not just by a passivity which wishes them away and hopes for a life of death, before death even takes the body. The young have egoic gratification, the old have no time left for it ;-) I am my own master.

 

 

That you are your own master would be wonderful if it were true.  But your need to 'be right' on every thread, to contend as you do, doesn't bear that out at all.  the only thing that will remove this tendency is inner discovery.

 

Start with the big ones.  Most of us have the big ones of Arrogance and the Need to be Right, until we do something about it.  Try to figure out where the need to be right all of the time started, and why your ego is so hung up on this.  In my particular case it was being pushed by my folks to not only be the one in class with the right answer, but to be the First to have the answer!  This is so contrary to the Sage - to the uncarved wood - to 'never be the First' - to the personality which no longer contains rough edges, which fits in seamlessly regardless of the situation because he is beyond judgment.

 

Yes, I know your response.  I am judging and  I am projecting my own shortcoming onto you.  Yes, this is true.  But the difference is that I am in Awareness of my Arrogance, my Need to be Right.  I do my best not to engage them, so they will shrivel and die.  I've been at this for a long time.   If given no food, they cannot live.  Without our character deficiencies, clarity is possible.  

 

But not a moment sooner.  You are loved here, and this is a great place to grow.  It's like we're a huge cosmic lapidary.  But please consider a little less contention on the threads so that the heavy presence is lessened a bit.

Edited September 28, 2015 by manitou

[Brian]

Water, is an element and therefore homogenous. Humans and not.

It is?

[Karl]

That you are your own master would be wonderful if it were true.  But your need to 'be right' on every thread, to contend as you do, doesn't bear that out at all.  the only thing that will remove this tendency is inner discovery.

 

Start with the big ones.  Most of us have the big ones of Arrogance and the Need to be Right, until we do something about it.  Try to figure out where the need to be right all of the time started, and why your ego is so hung up on this.  In my particular case it was being pushed by my folks to not only be the one in class with the right answer, but to be the First to have the answer!  This is so contrary to the Sage - to the uncarved wood - to 'never be the First' - to the personality which no longer contains rough edges, which fits in seamlessly regardless of the situation because he is beyond judgment.

 

Yes, I know your response.  I am judging and  I am projecting my own shortcoming onto you.  Yes, this is true.  But the difference is that I am in Awareness of my Arrogance, my Need to be Right.  I do my best not to engage them, so they will shrivel and die.  I've been at this for a long time.   If given no food, they cannot live.  Without our character deficiencies, clarity is possible.  

 

But not a moment sooner.  You are loved here, and this is a great place to grow.

 

You can judge if you want, but then you have to prove that what I say isn't true. If everything I say is true, then where is the arrogance ? If I am saying something is true, but I believe otherwise, or doubt what I say, then that wouldn't be arrogance, it would be a lie. As that lie would only damage me-bearing in mind that you do not believe what I say to be correct-then no arrogance is apparent either.

 

I go back to the analogy with the Apple. The taste is not in the Apple. You cannot blame the Apple for being arrogant about its taste, or always being right about its flavour. if you say X is Y then I will notice and comment on it. I can only notice the conflict in the argument. That is all I can do.

 

 

[Karl]

 

It is?

Its a compound of the elements hydrogen and oxygen, but that's semantics as far as the discussion is concerned. Human beings do not merge like droplets of water.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Karl

[Brian]

Define water :-) then we will have a homogenous substance.

And if I can therefore define "humans" then they also become homogenous?

[Karl]

And if I can therefore define "humans" then they also become homogenous?

 

I edited my reply before you posted.

[doc benway]

Of course I come into conflict with other objects, just so as I don't come into conflict with my own thoughts.

This is what you don't understand and a performing mental somersaults to try and create harmony.

The sweetness of the Apple is not in the Apple. It is our thoughts which are conflicting and not the objects outside of thought. What you are trying to do is to make the real world conform to your conflicted thinking.

It is no surprise to me that we disagree, but for you this is in direct conflict with your beliefs, because you have, yourself, come into conflict with an object-me.

 

That poem is wonderful by the way. It points out exactly what I have been saying. That the contradictions are internal disputes, or disputes between existence and the minds experience of existence. If you hold two contradicting concepts then one must go. That is what logic is about and that is what your poem reflects.

 

The taste of the Apple is not in the Apple. That was the clue that was left in Buddhist philosophy. If you think that means that you should dispute the seperate existence of the Apple, or yourself, then you got it wrong.

 

I'm glad you like the poem.

Each of us creates our reality... or not, as you wish.

Peace

_/\_

[Bindi]

water was merely an analogy, a literary device, surely what should be being examined was the meaning of the analogy, not water itself.

[Karl]

I'm glad you like the poem.

Each of us creates our reality... or not, as you wish.

Peace

_/\_

 

reality is reality we do not create it. Our job is to determine what it is not to create a simulacrum.

[Karl]

water was merely an analogy, a literary device, surely what should be being examined was the meaning of the analogy, not water itself.

 

Agreed. It was certainly a meaningless analogy.