Classes of Taoist ways

[exorcist_1699]

Whether there are classes  of ways , some superb, some inferior , in Taoist cultivation is a controversial issue, however,  because of  its importance, we can't ignore it .

 

In reality , there are  different classes of ways in Taoist practice .  Roughly speaking , we can divide them into  low, middle and  top classes . The criterion start from where  and how  we can initialize qi  ,  what quality  of  it  and how it is accumulated, up to whether we can upgrade  it to Shen and  the ways how we  well tune their relation..etc. 

 

Low class  of  ways (下品) :  these ways , more precisely speaking are  methods ( 術 ) that look trivial ; those  you can  easily come   across   in books, megazine or online ;  methods such  as counting  numbers to settle your mind,  paying attention to your breathing , massaging  certain acupoints or  singing spells ..etc   all belong to this category.  Many of them can be classified  as  methods of medical qigong .

 

Middle class of ways  (中品):  ways that ask you to pay attention to your lower dantian , focus  your mind on  upper dantian ,  visualize  something,  or absorb sun's yang from outside ..etc  all belong  to this category. Although  these ways are not that  bad and always effective to certain extent  , the strength  of how  hard   you use  your  mind  is always  the  problem of them  . For example , too strong a focus on the upper dantian can lead to high blood  pressure ,and , an inappropriate use of mind on lower dantian can give rise to  repeated nocturnal  leakage of  jing..etc.

 

 

Top class of ways (上品) : these ways are always difficult  to follow at initial stage , and their benefits emerge only after your having practiced them for years . They are those ways  tell you to start by paying attention to the emptiness  outside of your body   ( i.e. the way  of the West School  ),  or  by focusing  your mind on  nowhere ,  or  by visualizing something then nullifying its content..etc. They are the ways having a unique character that leads  you to genuine  forever youth, yet seldom can you come across them in your lifetime.

Edited September 11, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[Walker]

yet seldom can you come across them in your lifetime.

 

Yes. I have met many seekers and many would-be experts on Daoism, but few seem to even be aware that these teachings are real, nor what their import is.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Walker

[Taoist Texts]

Yes. I have met many seekers and many would-be experts on Daoism, but few seem to even be aware that these teachings are real, nor what their import is.

 Why dont you describe  these teachings for us please ?

[thelerner]

Seems to me 'low' is a bad translation.  Detrimental because people don't want to do things that are 'low'.  Yet that's exactly where one has to.  That's where the fundamentals are.  Where one needs to become knowledgeable and strong.  You can't stay there.  Actually you can and still have a strong leg up on most non-practitioners.  

 

For those who want to make it a life long practice, its good to move up, when you're ready and found an experienced teacher.

[exorcist_1699]

Seems to me 'low' is a bad translation.  Detrimental because people don't want to do things that are 'low'.  Yet that's exactly where one has to.  That's where the fundamentals are.  Where one needs to become knowledgeable and strong.  You can't stay there.  Actually you can and still have a strong leg up on most non-practitioners.  

 

For those who want to make it a life long practice, its good to move up, when you're ready and found an experienced teacher.

 

At first look , it seems reasonable to argue that at different stages, people  need different ways , and it is something natural .

 

Some methods or ways , for example,  visualization  or  focusing-your-mind-on-somewhere way, may  do their jobs  not bad at the beginning , yet you  have to get rid of them  quickly at  later stage or  on upper level,otherwise you may likely be trapped  .  Because in most cases, people can't  change their habit or can't get such an insight ,  they just keep doing what they find effective before....they can't understand  that what made them succeed or advance ,  can now  become  some  kind of blockade , obstructing  them from proceeding further. 

 

For example, as your practice proceeds, more and  more jing and qi is accumulated in your body,and up to certain point ,  any leakage of  it  , even happened once for whatever negligence you make   ,will become something fatal ; a continuous  nocturnal  leakage of jing  for many nights, for example , is  unmatched to such a leakage . As it becomes a life and death issue , and,  a focus-to-something mind or a mind of visualization is no longer capable of giving you leverage to control  such  scenario,  then a much greater Mind is  asked to step in...

 

So, different from the see-what-happen-and-change  way  , we can adopt another approach, ie, right from the very beginning  we  make use of a way/Mind   capable of   uplifting us  to the highest  level , despite the fact that it might look difficult  to grasp ..

Edited September 15, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[Daeluin]

 Why dont you describe  these teachings for us please ?

 

The teachings are everywhere. They are encoded in us, and in nature. We simply become distracted by the surface of things and allow our creations to cover up the heart of things.

 

The teachings are simple, and are found explicitly stated in many places, including the daodejing, which also says:

 

My words are easy to understand and very easy to apply.

But no Ego is able to understand them or apply them.

Words have authority.

Affairs have a history!

It is simply because of their ignorance

that Egos do not understand me.

Those who understand me are few, and

thus I am ennobled.

For this reason, Sages may wear homespun cloth over their shoulders,

but they carry a jewel beyond price in their heart.

 

ch 70; tl Jerry C Welch

[Taoist Texts]

The teachings are everywhere. They are encoded in us, and in nature. We simply become distracted by the surface of things and allow our creations to cover up the heart of things.

 

The teachings are simple, and are found explicitly stated in many places,

 

Well, yes, i totally agree that the three of you gents have a unique insight and desire to communicate it to us. What i would like to note is that your communication is rather inconcrete.

 

Say, you tell us that there is the method in DDJ but would not tell what and how-to exactly is it; Walker here would tell that the highest method is unappreciated enough but when asked to be specific - Walker walks away; if we ask Xorcist why exactly 'counting' is low while 'mind on nowhere' is a high method, he will likely to answer in generalities if at all.

 

So you guys have an insight, desire to share it with us - thats great. I just wish you be more specific;).

[Daeluin]

I think this yearning for specifics is a good reason for this contrived categorization of teachings/practices.

 

What is specific is easy to find and easy to practice.

But it is kinda like walking a straight line.

 

The middle way is also not so hard to find, for one who works hard.

It is like making a circle out of many short lines, carefully calculated turns made at the proper junctures.

This is complicated and still does not flow on its own, controlled at every turn by the thinking mind.

Although it can be used to get close enough to begin to sense what is beyond:

When one's practice becomes second nature and the thinking mind is allowed to dissolve.

 

The top way is where we leave specifics behind.

The dao is found between the lines.

Teaching the top way is pointing at emptiness.

The top way relates to embodying the circularity of the dao by merging into one-ness with it.

At every turn the principles adapt to keep the cycling balanced.

This is not truely possible by control from the human mind; the mind of dao will lead one true.

 

Things like neidan might have specific methods - the key is usually just to focus/rest the mind on the breath and breathe from the lower abdomen. Over time changes unfold, and here one needs to adapt according to the principles found in the classics. One must be careful to go far enough, but not too far, knowing when to rest, when to arouse, at every step. And one needs to discover how to do this naturally, for at some point the momentum of the merging energies will want to continue cycling on its own, if only one is able to get the thinking mind to merge with it rather than getting in the way of it. Understanding how one is getting in the way is where a teacher can be very helpful - although one can also learn much by studying one's own nature: If one has a very water-like personality and historical momentum, then in terms of a balanced circle one can identify where one might have too much strength and not enough strength, and how this might get in the way of the internal cyclings, how this might affect one in the cyclings of the moon and sun, etc. And this is one reason to be careful with specifics - different people have different needs for balance. Attaching to fixed laws will only benefit some, not all.

 

Where there is sincerity the way is open. Not much else matters. Surrender desire, place sincerity on the heart of things and follow where it leads. Learn how to stand up to the lessons of life with calm and acceptance, and you will begin to slip between the lines.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Daeluin

[dawei]

 

Whether there are classes  of ways , some superb, some inferior , in Taoist cultivation is a controversial issue, however,  because of  its importance, we can't ignore it .

 

In reality , there are  different classes of ways in Taoist practice .  Roughly speaking , we can divide them into  low, middle and  top classes . The criterion start from where  and how  we can initialize qi  ,  what quality  of  it  and how it is accumulated, up to whether we can upgrade  it to Shen and  the ways how we  well tune their relation..etc. 

 

Low class  of  ways (下品) : 

Middle class of ways  (中品):  

Top class of ways (上品) : 

 

Interesting topic and one I've thought about in the past.  Where is your three classes from, did you come up with the assignment?

 

I personally believe what you put as Middle is Low, and Low is Middle.  Some of what you have in low and middle belong together and I'm not sure you understand what is Medical Qigong based on these classes as it would fit some of what you describe in the Top Class.

 

Your middle way talks about the problems one encounters which is typical of a 'low way'.   Medical Qigong is an integrative and balancing approach; that is why it focuses on 'purge, tonify, balance'.  And it is less focused on certain areas (LDT vs UDT) but rather works from 'no-thing' to 'no-thing'; if the practitioner has removed themself from the equation, there is only nature / Dao.  I personally don't find that a Low Class.   

 

It is interesting that the idea of Wu Wei is absence from mention in all these classes and 'practices'...  as Baopuzi said, 'practice is not natural'...   so one is engaging in forced approaches in most any class at times.  

 

But I think there is an effortless aspect which is overlooked...  This is what is truly seldom to come across.  I've seen it in many people over the years.  It is like the idea when we say something comes to someone 'naturally'; they can just do it.

 

And there is another aspect missing; those simply wired and connected; those who are seemingly reflective of some way which is not reflected in others.   This could be more like psychic powers or light connections.   This would go beyond seldom to rare... and yet something tells me this was at one time in the past much more normal and natural.   Just as is said, when Dao is lost, virtue arises... and here when the natural way [reflective connection] is lost, practices arise to try and get something back...

 

My final thought is this: Everyone is where they are because that is where they belong.  That is their present destiny.  In this way, we cannot really judge 'low vs middle vs top'.  We can only say, this is where they are.   

[Ish]

Quote

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Ish

[Taoist Texts]

Things like neidan might have specific methods - the key is usually just to focus/rest the mind on the breath and breathe from the lower abdomen. Over time changes unfold, and here one needs to adapt according to the principles found in the classics. One must be careful to go far enough, but not too far, knowing when to rest, when to arouse, at every step. And one needs to discover how to do this naturally, for at some point the momentum of the merging energies will want to continue cycling on its own, if only one is able to get the thinking mind to merge with it rather than getting in the way of it. 

Thats what i am talking about. This is specific and precise. Thank you for that.

 

My final thought is this: Everyone is where they are because that is where they belong.  That is their present destiny.  In this way, we cannot really judge 'low vs middle vs top'.  We can only say, this is where they are.   

Very good. Ppl do not understand that there are no difference in methods. There is just one method under different guises. What makes the difference is the student. Either he has it or he does not.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Taoist Texts

[opendao]

 

Whether there are classes  of ways , some superb, some inferior , in Taoist cultivation is a controversial issue, however,  because of  its importance, we can't ignore it .

 

In reality , there are  different classes of ways in Taoist practice .  Roughly speaking , we can divide them into  low, middle and  top classes . The criterion start from where  and how  we can initialize qi  ,  what quality  of  it  and how it is accumulated, up to whether we can upgrade  it to Shen and  the ways how we  well tune their relation..etc. 

 

Low class  of  ways (下品) :  these ways , more precisely speaking are  methods ( 術 ) that look trivial ; those  you can  easily come   across   in books, megazine or online ;  methods such  as counting  numbers to settle your mind,  paying attention to your breathing , massaging  certain acupoints or  singing spells ..etc   all belong to this category.  Many of them can be classified  as  methods of medical qigong .

 

Middle class of ways  (中品):  ways that ask you to pay attention to your lower dantian , focus  your mind on  upper dantian ,  visualize  something,  or absorb sun's yang from outside ..etc  all belong  to this category. Although  these ways are not that  bad and always effective to certain extent  , the strength  of how  hard   you use  your  mind  is always  the  problem of them  . For example , too strong a focus on the upper dantian can lead to high blood  pressure ,and , an inappropriate use of mind on lower dantian can give rise to  repeated nocturnal  leakage of  jing..etc.

 

 

Top class of ways (上品) : these ways are always difficult  to follow at initial stage , and their benefits emerge only after your having practiced them for years . They are those ways  tell you to start by paying attention to the emptiness  outside of your body   ( i.e. the way  of the West School  ),  or  by focusing  your mind on  nowhere ,  or  by visualizing something then nullifying its content..etc.

 

These all are Qigong methods, how to use the mind mostly. And there is no real difference between them. "Absorbing sun" is described in any modern book as well as "focusing mind on nowhere"...

 

If we take a more traditional classification, then we can see that such methods are just considered to be useless to attain Dao.

 

For example, "Book of Balance and Harmony", chapter 8 lists all these low, middle and high mind exercises under "sidetrack and auxiliary" methods.

 

And for the highest of such methods it's written that it can "eliminate sickness", so basically it's Qigong/ Yangsheng.

 

Internal Alchemy and Dao cultivation are based on other principles and lead to other goals, but they also can be classified as methods for "people of low, medium and high talents". But it's way different from what is discussed here. 

 

Starting with initial stages, students just need to practice regularly. There is nothing really hard to do, visualize or do other hard mind work. Mind has to be settled down, and such requirement is satisfied by the basic preliminary dynamic exercises, which work with Qi in a special manner. No sitting, no meditation, no mind work as described in the initial post. At least, that's how it works in Daoist schools I know or heard about.

 

The Dao is simple, because the methods used are very effective. Relying on mind, attention, breathing etc are not so effective in the beginning, dangerous, lead to deviations, that's why such practices are not used. Relying on mind to stop the mind is similar to stop fire with fire.

 

 

They are the ways having a unique character that leads  you to genuine  forever youth, yet seldom can you come across them in your lifetime.

 

again, visualization and attention tricks don't lead to immortality or Dao.

Edited September 17, 2015 by opendao

[exorcist_1699]

Well, yes, i totally agree that the three of you gents have a unique insight and desire to communicate it to us. What i would like to note is that your communication is rather inconcrete.

 

Say, you tell us that there is the method in DDJ but would not tell what and how-to exactly is it; Walker here would tell that the highest method is unappreciated enough but when asked to be specific - Walker walks away; if we ask Xorcist why exactly 'counting' is low while 'mind on nowhere' is a high method, he will likely to answer in generalities if at all.

 

 

I  mentioned that whether a way can initialize qi , and  what quality of    it  being initialized  , is one of the  criteria to judge how good that way is .  Counting  numbers ,or counting whatever people like,  can't help us initialize qi,  the best it can do is to  help us settling our fluctuated mind, so it is a method of low class.

 

Although many people can initialize  qi by focusing their mind on  some place of their bodies , only few  can initialize it by placing their mind in nowhere. 

 

Having our mind situated in nowhere and sustains it , such a capacity can lead us  to  shaking off  those invisible shackles and limits , appear in varied categories and  forms:

 

social  (e.g. saying that women can't become immortals ) ,

 

cultural  (e.g. saying that aging  is predetermined and natural ;  even science can be a trap ) ,

 

spatial( e.g. perception of a boundary between our selves and the outside world)  and  

 

time-related ( e.g.  illusory perception of an existence of  arrow of time : past, now and future...; bullshit  people about living  in the  present moment..etc )  

 

that  we bear , which  sadly are unknown to most of us . With a Mind of such achievement , we can enter  the primordial dimension straight  , and   grasp  the high-quality , primordial qi ( 先天氣  )  easier . In this sense, undoubtedly it is a top way.

Edited September 21, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

It is interesting that the idea of Wu Wei is absence from mention in all these classes and 'practices'...  as Baopuzi said, 'practice is not natural'...   so one is engaging in forced approaches in most any class at times.  

 

"Focusing  your mind on  nowhere "  , the top way I mentioned , can be a starting point  of  practicing Wu wei ...

Edited September 21, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

 

Relying on mind to stop the mind is similar to stop fire with fire.

 

Yeah. To replace the existing mind by another mind , in whatever forms it might be , so as to attain high quality qi , is futile . All minds are the enemies of the primordial qi . 

Edited September 26, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

 

I  mentioned that whether a way can initialize qi , and  what quality of    it  being initialized  , is one of the  criteria to judge how good that way is .

Very good. Now this is concrete. Not that i agree but this is a precise criterion. Thank you.

 

Yeah. Never should we  replace the existing mind  by another mind ,  in whatever forms it is  . All minds are the enemies of the primordial qi .

May be. Or may be 借人心复道心 /take human mind - remake it into dao-mind/.

[dawei]

"Focusing  your mind on  nowhere "  , the top way I metioned , can be a starting place  of  practicing Wu wei ...

 

'focus' is already putting it somewhere...    Letting go is 'nowhere'.

 

How do you connect to deities/spirits/entities?  Is that a focus or letting go?

[exorcist_1699]

'focus' is already putting it somewhere...    Letting go is 'nowhere'.

 

How do you connect to deities/spirits/entities?  Is that a focus or letting go?

 

' Nowhere  ' , in fact, can't be focused ; telling people to do the impossible job  is to  help them dissolving their minds, getting rid of the mentioned shackles and limits.

Edited September 21, 2015 by exorcist_1699