exorcist_1699 Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Whether there are classes of ways , some superb, some inferior , in Taoist cultivation is a controversial issue, however, because of its importance, we can't ignore it . In reality , there are different classes of ways in Taoist practice . Roughly speaking , we can divide them into low, middle and top classes . The criterion start from where and how we can initialize qi , what quality of it and how it is accumulated, up to whether we can upgrade it to Shen and the ways how we well tune their relation..etc. Low class of ways (下品) : these ways , more precisely speaking are methods ( 術 ) that look trivial ; those you can easily come across in books, megazine or online ; methods such as counting numbers to settle your mind, paying attention to your breathing , massaging certain acupoints or singing spells ..etc all belong to this category. Many of them can be classified as methods of medical qigong . Middle class of ways (中品): ways that ask you to pay attention to your lower dantian , focus your mind on upper dantian , visualize something, or absorb sun's yang from outside ..etc all belong to this category. Although these ways are not that bad and always effective to certain extent , the strength of how hard you use your mind is always the problem of them . For example , too strong a focus on the upper dantian can lead to high blood pressure ,and , an inappropriate use of mind on lower dantian can give rise to repeated nocturnal leakage of jing..etc. Top class of ways (上品) : these ways are always difficult to follow at initial stage , and their benefits emerge only after your having practiced them for years . They are those ways tell you to start by paying attention to the emptiness outside of your body ( i.e. the way of the West School ), or by focusing your mind on nowhere , or by visualizing something then nullifying its content..etc. They are the ways having a unique character that leads you to genuine forever youth, yet seldom can you come across them in your lifetime. Edited September 11, 2015 by exorcist_1699 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Walker Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) yet seldom can you come across them in your lifetime. Yes. I have met many seekers and many would-be experts on Daoism, but few seem to even be aware that these teachings are real, nor what their import is. Edited September 11, 2015 by Walker 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted September 11, 2015 Yes. I have met many seekers and many would-be experts on Daoism, but few seem to even be aware that these teachings are real, nor what their import is. Why dont you describe these teachings for us please ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted September 11, 2015 Seems to me 'low' is a bad translation. Detrimental because people don't want to do things that are 'low'. Yet that's exactly where one has to. That's where the fundamentals are. Where one needs to become knowledgeable and strong. You can't stay there. Actually you can and still have a strong leg up on most non-practitioners. For those who want to make it a life long practice, its good to move up, when you're ready and found an experienced teacher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
exorcist_1699 Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) Seems to me 'low' is a bad translation. Detrimental because people don't want to do things that are 'low'. Yet that's exactly where one has to. That's where the fundamentals are. Where one needs to become knowledgeable and strong. You can't stay there. Actually you can and still have a strong leg up on most non-practitioners. For those who want to make it a life long practice, its good to move up, when you're ready and found an experienced teacher. At first look , it seems reasonable to argue that at different stages, people need different ways , and it is something natural . Some methods or ways , for example, visualization or focusing-your-mind-on-somewhere way, may do their jobs not bad at the beginning , yet you have to get rid of them quickly at later stage or on upper level,otherwise you may likely be trapped . Because in most cases, people can't change their habit or can't get such an insight , they just keep doing what they find effective before....they can't understand that what made them succeed or advance , can now become some kind of blockade , obstructing them from proceeding further. For example, as your practice proceeds, more and more jing and qi is accumulated in your body,and up to certain point , any leakage of it , even happened once for whatever negligence you make ,will become something fatal ; a continuous nocturnal leakage of jing for many nights, for example , is unmatched to such a leakage . As it becomes a life and death issue , and, a focus-to-something mind or a mind of visualization is no longer capable of giving you leverage to control such scenario, then a much greater Mind is asked to step in... So, different from the see-what-happen-and-change way , we can adopt another approach, ie, right from the very beginning we make use of a way/Mind capable of uplifting us to the highest level , despite the fact that it might look difficult to grasp .. Edited September 15, 2015 by exorcist_1699 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted September 16, 2015 Why dont you describe these teachings for us please ? The teachings are everywhere. They are encoded in us, and in nature. We simply become distracted by the surface of things and allow our creations to cover up the heart of things. The teachings are simple, and are found explicitly stated in many places, including the daodejing, which also says: My words are easy to understand and very easy to apply. But no Ego is able to understand them or apply them. Words have authority. Affairs have a history! It is simply because of their ignorance that Egos do not understand me. Those who understand me are few, and thus I am ennobled. For this reason, Sages may wear homespun cloth over their shoulders, but they carry a jewel beyond price in their heart. ch 70; tl Jerry C Welch 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted September 17, 2015 The teachings are everywhere. They are encoded in us, and in nature. We simply become distracted by the surface of things and allow our creations to cover up the heart of things. The teachings are simple, and are found explicitly stated in many places, Well, yes, i totally agree that the three of you gents have a unique insight and desire to communicate it to us. What i would like to note is that your communication is rather inconcrete. Say, you tell us that there is the method in DDJ but would not tell what and how-to exactly is it; Walker here would tell that the highest method is unappreciated enough but when asked to be specific - Walker walks away; if we ask Xorcist why exactly 'counting' is low while 'mind on nowhere' is a high method, he will likely to answer in generalities if at all. So you guys have an insight, desire to share it with us - thats great. I just wish you be more specific;). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) I think this yearning for specifics is a good reason for this contrived categorization of teachings/practices. What is specific is easy to find and easy to practice. But it is kinda like walking a straight line. The middle way is also not so hard to find, for one who works hard. It is like making a circle out of many short lines, carefully calculated turns made at the proper junctures. This is complicated and still does not flow on its own, controlled at every turn by the thinking mind. Although it can be used to get close enough to begin to sense what is beyond: When one's practice becomes second nature and the thinking mind is allowed to dissolve. The top way is where we leave specifics behind. The dao is found between the lines. Teaching the top way is pointing at emptiness. The top way relates to embodying the circularity of the dao by merging into one-ness with it. At every turn the principles adapt to keep the cycling balanced. This is not truely possible by control from the human mind; the mind of dao will lead one true. Things like neidan might have specific methods - the key is usually just to focus/rest the mind on the breath and breathe from the lower abdomen. Over time changes unfold, and here one needs to adapt according to the principles found in the classics. One must be careful to go far enough, but not too far, knowing when to rest, when to arouse, at every step. And one needs to discover how to do this naturally, for at some point the momentum of the merging energies will want to continue cycling on its own, if only one is able to get the thinking mind to merge with it rather than getting in the way of it. Understanding how one is getting in the way is where a teacher can be very helpful - although one can also learn much by studying one's own nature: If one has a very water-like personality and historical momentum, then in terms of a balanced circle one can identify where one might have too much strength and not enough strength, and how this might get in the way of the internal cyclings, how this might affect one in the cyclings of the moon and sun, etc. And this is one reason to be careful with specifics - different people have different needs for balance. Attaching to fixed laws will only benefit some, not all. Where there is sincerity the way is open. Not much else matters. Surrender desire, place sincerity on the heart of things and follow where it leads. Learn how to stand up to the lessons of life with calm and acceptance, and you will begin to slip between the lines. Edited September 17, 2015 by Daeluin 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 17, 2015 Whether there are classes of ways , some superb, some inferior , in Taoist cultivation is a controversial issue, however, because of its importance, we can't ignore it . In reality , there are different classes of ways in Taoist practice . Roughly speaking , we can divide them into low, middle and top classes . The criterion start from where and how we can initialize qi , what quality of it and how it is accumulated, up to whether we can upgrade it to Shen and the ways how we well tune their relation..etc. Low class of ways (下品) : Middle class of ways (中品): Top class of ways (上品) : Interesting topic and one I've thought about in the past. Where is your three classes from, did you come up with the assignment? I personally believe what you put as Middle is Low, and Low is Middle. Some of what you have in low and middle belong together and I'm not sure you understand what is Medical Qigong based on these classes as it would fit some of what you describe in the Top Class. Your middle way talks about the problems one encounters which is typical of a 'low way'. Medical Qigong is an integrative and balancing approach; that is why it focuses on 'purge, tonify, balance'. And it is less focused on certain areas (LDT vs UDT) but rather works from 'no-thing' to 'no-thing'; if the practitioner has removed themself from the equation, there is only nature / Dao. I personally don't find that a Low Class. It is interesting that the idea of Wu Wei is absence from mention in all these classes and 'practices'... as Baopuzi said, 'practice is not natural'... so one is engaging in forced approaches in most any class at times. But I think there is an effortless aspect which is overlooked... This is what is truly seldom to come across. I've seen it in many people over the years. It is like the idea when we say something comes to someone 'naturally'; they can just do it. And there is another aspect missing; those simply wired and connected; those who are seemingly reflective of some way which is not reflected in others. This could be more like psychic powers or light connections. This would go beyond seldom to rare... and yet something tells me this was at one time in the past much more normal and natural. Just as is said, when Dao is lost, virtue arises... and here when the natural way [reflective connection] is lost, practices arise to try and get something back... My final thought is this: Everyone is where they are because that is where they belong. That is their present destiny. In this way, we cannot really judge 'low vs middle vs top'. We can only say, this is where they are. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Quote Edited April 4, 2018 by Ish 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Things like neidan might have specific methods - the key is usually just to focus/rest the mind on the breath and breathe from the lower abdomen. Over time changes unfold, and here one needs to adapt according to the principles found in the classics. One must be careful to go far enough, but not too far, knowing when to rest, when to arouse, at every step. And one needs to discover how to do this naturally, for at some point the momentum of the merging energies will want to continue cycling on its own, if only one is able to get the thinking mind to merge with it rather than getting in the way of it. Thats what i am talking about. This is specific and precise. Thank you for that. My final thought is this: Everyone is where they are because that is where they belong. That is their present destiny. In this way, we cannot really judge 'low vs middle vs top'. We can only say, this is where they are. Very good. Ppl do not understand that there are no difference in methods. There is just one method under different guises. What makes the difference is the student. Either he has it or he does not. Edited September 17, 2015 by Taoist Texts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Whether there are classes of ways , some superb, some inferior , in Taoist cultivation is a controversial issue, however, because of its importance, we can't ignore it . In reality , there are different classes of ways in Taoist practice . Roughly speaking , we can divide them into low, middle and top classes . The criterion start from where and how we can initialize qi , what quality of it and how it is accumulated, up to whether we can upgrade it to Shen and the ways how we well tune their relation..etc. Low class of ways (下品) : these ways , more precisely speaking are methods ( 術 ) that look trivial ; those you can easily come across in books, megazine or online ; methods such as counting numbers to settle your mind, paying attention to your breathing , massaging certain acupoints or singing spells ..etc all belong to this category. Many of them can be classified as methods of medical qigong . Middle class of ways (中品): ways that ask you to pay attention to your lower dantian , focus your mind on upper dantian , visualize something, or absorb sun's yang from outside ..etc all belong to this category. Although these ways are not that bad and always effective to certain extent , the strength of how hard you use your mind is always the problem of them . For example , too strong a focus on the upper dantian can lead to high blood pressure ,and , an inappropriate use of mind on lower dantian can give rise to repeated nocturnal leakage of jing..etc. Top class of ways (上品) : these ways are always difficult to follow at initial stage , and their benefits emerge only after your having practiced them for years . They are those ways tell you to start by paying attention to the emptiness outside of your body ( i.e. the way of the West School ), or by focusing your mind on nowhere , or by visualizing something then nullifying its content..etc. These all are Qigong methods, how to use the mind mostly. And there is no real difference between them. "Absorbing sun" is described in any modern book as well as "focusing mind on nowhere"... If we take a more traditional classification, then we can see that such methods are just considered to be useless to attain Dao. For example, "Book of Balance and Harmony", chapter 8 lists all these low, middle and high mind exercises under "sidetrack and auxiliary" methods. And for the highest of such methods it's written that it can "eliminate sickness", so basically it's Qigong/ Yangsheng. Internal Alchemy and Dao cultivation are based on other principles and lead to other goals, but they also can be classified as methods for "people of low, medium and high talents". But it's way different from what is discussed here. Starting with initial stages, students just need to practice regularly. There is nothing really hard to do, visualize or do other hard mind work. Mind has to be settled down, and such requirement is satisfied by the basic preliminary dynamic exercises, which work with Qi in a special manner. No sitting, no meditation, no mind work as described in the initial post. At least, that's how it works in Daoist schools I know or heard about. The Dao is simple, because the methods used are very effective. Relying on mind, attention, breathing etc are not so effective in the beginning, dangerous, lead to deviations, that's why such practices are not used. Relying on mind to stop the mind is similar to stop fire with fire. They are the ways having a unique character that leads you to genuine forever youth, yet seldom can you come across them in your lifetime. again, visualization and attention tricks don't lead to immortality or Dao. Edited September 17, 2015 by opendao 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
exorcist_1699 Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) Well, yes, i totally agree that the three of you gents have a unique insight and desire to communicate it to us. What i would like to note is that your communication is rather inconcrete. Say, you tell us that there is the method in DDJ but would not tell what and how-to exactly is it; Walker here would tell that the highest method is unappreciated enough but when asked to be specific - Walker walks away; if we ask Xorcist why exactly 'counting' is low while 'mind on nowhere' is a high method, he will likely to answer in generalities if at all. I mentioned that whether a way can initialize qi , and what quality of it being initialized , is one of the criteria to judge how good that way is . Counting numbers ,or counting whatever people like, can't help us initialize qi, the best it can do is to help us settling our fluctuated mind, so it is a method of low class. Although many people can initialize qi by focusing their mind on some place of their bodies , only few can initialize it by placing their mind in nowhere. Having our mind situated in nowhere and sustains it , such a capacity can lead us to shaking off those invisible shackles and limits , appear in varied categories and forms: social (e.g. saying that women can't become immortals ) , cultural (e.g. saying that aging is predetermined and natural ; even science can be a trap ) , spatial( e.g. perception of a boundary between our selves and the outside world) and time-related ( e.g. illusory perception of an existence of arrow of time : past, now and future...; bullshit people about living in the present moment..etc ) that we bear , which sadly are unknown to most of us . With a Mind of such achievement , we can enter the primordial dimension straight , and grasp the high-quality , primordial qi ( 先天氣 ) easier . In this sense, undoubtedly it is a top way. Edited September 21, 2015 by exorcist_1699 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
exorcist_1699 Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) It is interesting that the idea of Wu Wei is absence from mention in all these classes and 'practices'... as Baopuzi said, 'practice is not natural'... so one is engaging in forced approaches in most any class at times. "Focusing your mind on nowhere " , the top way I mentioned , can be a starting point of practicing Wu wei ... Edited September 21, 2015 by exorcist_1699 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
exorcist_1699 Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Relying on mind to stop the mind is similar to stop fire with fire. Yeah. To replace the existing mind by another mind , in whatever forms it might be , so as to attain high quality qi , is futile . All minds are the enemies of the primordial qi . Edited September 26, 2015 by exorcist_1699 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted September 20, 2015 I mentioned that whether a way can initialize qi , and what quality of it being initialized , is one of the criteria to judge how good that way is . Very good. Now this is concrete. Not that i agree but this is a precise criterion. Thank you. Yeah. Never should we replace the existing mind by another mind , in whatever forms it is . All minds are the enemies of the primordial qi . May be. Or may be 借人心复道心 /take human mind - remake it into dao-mind/. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 21, 2015 "Focusing your mind on nowhere " , the top way I metioned , can be a starting place of practicing Wu wei ... 'focus' is already putting it somewhere... Letting go is 'nowhere'. How do you connect to deities/spirits/entities? Is that a focus or letting go? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
exorcist_1699 Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) 'focus' is already putting it somewhere... Letting go is 'nowhere'. How do you connect to deities/spirits/entities? Is that a focus or letting go? ' Nowhere ' , in fact, can't be focused ; telling people to do the impossible job is to help them dissolving their minds, getting rid of the mentioned shackles and limits. Edited September 21, 2015 by exorcist_1699 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites