Introducing pain into meditation

[HoldorFold]

I feel that I will get a lot more out of meditation at the moment if I can introduce a controlled element of pain somehow which I can work on transcending.

I've read about a sect of Monks who for something like 100 days walk up and down a mountain with little food or water as part of their practice. 

I'm not thinking about anything near as extreme at all, and preferably I would like to be doing a sitting meditation while introducing this pain.

I'm thinking holding ice-cubes or something like that, but is there any standard practice at all (that won't damage the body).
 

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Ron Crouch on vipassana:

 

Imagine that reality is sending thoughts, sensations, and emotions to you down a conveyor belt and you have to put a post-it note on each one as it goes by, and on each post-it note is a one or two-word phrase summarizing what it is. You do not take anything off the conveyor belt, and you do not get caught up in any new shiny thing that comes down the conveyor belt. You simply do your job and note it and let it go.

 

 

Look at whatever comes closely. How long does it last? How are you attaching to it or shoving it away? Do you own it? You don't need to do anything special to introduce pain to work with. If you just stay still for a bit, you will quickly have itches you want to scratch, aches, boredom, etc. Just be sensible about recognizing when you actually should move or stop.

[thelerner]

I feel that I will get a lot more out of meditation at the moment if I can introduce a controlled element of pain somehow which I can work on transcending.

I've read about a sect of Monks who for something like 100 days walk up and down a mountain with little food or water as part of their practice. 

 

I'm not thinking about anything near as extreme at all, and preferably I would like to be doing a sitting meditation while introducing this pain.

I'm thinking holding ice-cubes or something like that, but is there any standard practice at all (that won't damage the body).v

I wonder if you're thinking of the 'Marathon Monks of Mount Hiei'?  They run/walk the equivalent of over 2 marathons a day, and then there's the death fast of no food, water or sleep.   They are very interesting, John Stevens wrote a good book about them.  

 

In some Indian traditions people would wear stiff uncomfortable clothing that would reinforce perfect posture. Matter of fact some Indian holy men are all about putting themselves into harsh suffering conditions to test there mind/body connection.   Long sitting itself can be torturous.  There are tummo style practices that combine low stance, slow breath cycle and chants that are very difficult. 

 

As long as you won't do yourself any damage, try it.  And let us know how it worked out. 

Edited September 13, 2015 by thelerner

[mYTHmAKER]

Self flagellation is fun, also sitting meditation on a board with nails like some yogis.

I wonder what your religious background is/was.

Is ego involved?

It is difficult enough to sit in meditation to find inner peace and reach higher states without

introducing pain into the equation.

Overcoming pain is a way to train ones mind but not a way to a higher state. IMHO

[Kaspar]

Why? Pain is a way to train compliance and discipline, not exactly an effective way to reach certain states. If you really want to bring pain into practice, set a goal. And go Liber vel Jugorum. For example, if you want to get rid of a bad habit then every time you do that action you want to break you bite your thumb as hard as possible and feel that pain. Soon, you'll stop doing that action as your brain rewires itself.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Kaspar

[forestofclarity]

I would recommend taking a look at the Wim Hof Method if you want to do something like that.

 

Discomfort usually arises naturally when you sit still for long enough, though. Most of my teachers have said to neither seek pain nor to avoid it when it comes. 

 

I'm thinking holding ice-cubes or something like that, but is there any standard practice at all (that won't damage the body).

[soaring crane]

The pain would just give you a focal point and thus become a crutch, diminishing the effectiveness of your meditation. Better (and probably more difficult) to go without.

[Flolfolil]

I recommend finding an experienced S&M partner for nonsexual pain experiences.  Some very intense trance states are in fact possible, as well as powerful emotional releases and realizations.  A strong degree of ego loss is possible.  Having someone experienced doing it for you lets you push your own boundaries without going too far.  If you just do it yourself, you wont get very far in regards to pushing boundaries because you will hold back.

 

It is also possible to reach a point where you no longer bruise.  Dunno the physiological mechanisms behind that, but if I had to guess, I'd say my body is learning to not view physical trauma as very....traumatic anymore.

 

By going through experiences of extreme victimhood, it is possible to get victim mentality in check.  I hesitate to say eradicate it entirely, but I haven't thought that way in quite some time.

 

Caution though, its very addictive.

[Arya]

You're supposed to relax and tranquilize the body and then pain resistance increases many-fold..

 

Don't put yourself through unnecessary practices.

[HoldorFold]

I'm trying to meditate for a long period in a semi-lotus position without moving at all except to swallow and blink. After about half an hour my limbs start to feel painfull and then go completely numb. I've carried on past this mark for a fair amount of time, but then when I come out of the meditation my limbs are completely numb for awhile and I'm somewhat concerned about doing nerve damage... which I read is not likely but can happen.

I'd much rather introduce a controlled element of pain where I don't have to worry about doing actual damage to my body.

Thanks for the suggestions... I'll have to look into Tumo and Wim Holf Methods. As for the S&M, that would get way too expensive since I want to do this every day, lol. Self-flagellation is an option, but I want to try to not move if possible. I might give it a go though.

[idiot_stimpy]

If you're doing meditation like me, painful emotional experiences will arise naturally anyway for one to deal with. Unless you're completely clear, if that was the case you wouldn't need to introduce pain in the first place.

 

There should be enough pain in everyday life to work with without inflicting more. If you cannot find the pain, I would suggest looking in a different place.

[de_paradise]

Mortifying is a legitimate practice to lessen attachment to the body including the constant desire for comfort.  Make sure that you understand the philosophy, and its not so you can be proud that you did some whacked out practice in the name of progress.

 

Pain practices make your body secrete endorphins so you get high, but are you making progress? You must  understand spiritual joy and notice the difference between that and body chemical high.

[mYTHmAKER]

I'm trying to meditate for a long period in a semi-lotus position without moving at all except to swallow and blink. After about half an hour my limbs start to feel painfull and then go completely numb. I've carried on past this mark for a fair amount of time, but then when I come out of the meditation my limbs are completely numb for awhile and I'm somewhat concerned about doing nerve damage... which I read is not likely but can happen.

 

I'd much rather introduce a controlled element of pain where I don't have to worry about doing actual damage to my body.

 

Thanks for the suggestions... I'll have to look into Tumo and Wim Holf Methods. As for the S&M, that would get way too expensive since I want to do this every day, lol. Self-flagellation is an option, but I want to try to not move if possible. I might give it a go though.

Start with an easier position  - put pillows under your thighs. Do stretches to open the tight areas

[forestofclarity]

If you're truly concerned, talk to a medical professional, BUT this is fairly common in meditation. I've not heard of anyone getting permanent nerve damage from sitting still for an 1/2 hour to an hour because their limbs fell asleep. More than likely, this is your mind trying to talk you out of meditation. I remember many times my mind telling me I had to move because I was causing myself nerve damage. During my first retreat, I asked to go from a cushion to a chair because I thought the pain was unbearable. The teacher pushed me to remain with it, and I'm glad I did. 

 

Meditation damage is almost always the knees and is almost always caused by pushing a posture (usually one of the lotuses). The usual signs are significant pain, as opposed to discomfort, and pain that doesn't go away soon after stopping the posture. 

 

I'm trying to meditate for a long period in a semi-lotus position without moving at all except to swallow and blink. After about half an hour my limbs start to feel painfull and then go completely numb. I've carried on past this mark for a fair amount of time, but then when I come out of the meditation my limbs are completely numb for awhile and I'm somewhat concerned about doing nerve damage... which I read is not likely but can happen.

I'd much rather introduce a controlled element of pain where I don't have to worry about doing actual damage to my body.

[idiot_stimpy]

Be natural and at ease. No need to inflict damage upon yourself. Let us use our efforts to repair ourselves.

[Spotless]

After you have become successful in dealing with the pain - try sustaining neutrality - try introducing not-pain and not-pleasure and not-distraction.

 

Self dealt Pain is a play on sex energy - it sustains that game - and suffers nothing for it.

 

Your body the great vehicle deserves a fine steward - playing this pain game is a "doing" that is not the same at all as relates to the monks on the mountain - do not make assumptions about what they are doing or going through - it is a very different thing - not a hair shirt redress or self mortification. Whole armies have marched hundreds of miles on no food - just don't assume any knowledge what so ever regarding the monks.

 

Holding a posture well into blue limbs and pain is just a dogma marker that has arisen. It is a great way to have induce a stroke and boost the ego - it does nothing for practice or mental accomplishment. I have enjoyed long meditation - upward of 18 hours - nothing in it is about endurance - it is not about getting somewhere and it is not trance meditation ( which would be much easier and much less effective). It is about being with awareness, in awareness - un distracted yet unperturbed by distraction.

If you need to go to the bathroom you do - if you must close a window because it is now late at night and it has become cold you do. Nothing in the universe askes you to whip your body - it is that which bares the intuition/voice of awareness - meditation resonates the great vehicle with awareness at the highest levels.

 

We are so good at beating ourselves and so hard of hearing the voice that is always present for us.

Practice hearing.

 

 

I'm currently writing a book - How to gracefully accept defeat in Russian Roulette.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Spotless

[thelerner]

I'm trying to meditate for a long period in a semi-lotus position without moving at all except to swallow and blink.

After decades following the paradigm of sitting perfectly still while meditating, I introduced a slight rocking movement from the Stillness-Movement practice.  It's allowed me to sit longer and more comfortably and it feels very natural. 

 

At times I'll sit in different ways, at times returning to stillness but that small bobbing motion has become my default. 

[Manaus]

You might be interested in Osho's explanation of a meditation from Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, "Pierce some part of your nectar-filled form with a pin [...]"

Never tried though, I fear needles

[noonespecial]

I recommend finding an experienced S&M partner for nonsexual pain experiences.  Some very intense trance states are in fact possible, as well as powerful emotional releases and realizations.  A strong degree of ego loss is possible.  Having someone experienced doing it for you lets you push your own boundaries without going too far.  If you just do it yourself, you wont get very far in regards to pushing boundaries because you will hold back.

 

It is also possible to reach a point where you no longer bruise.  Dunno the physiological mechanisms behind that, but if I had to guess, I'd say my body is learning to not view physical trauma as very....traumatic anymore.

 

By going through experiences of extreme victimhood, it is possible to get victim mentality in check.  I hesitate to say eradicate it entirely, but I haven't thought that way in quite some time.

 

Caution though, its very addictive.

 

I became insta-frineds with this fellow at my old job, I said this guy is into either kabalah, tantra or is an achieved daoist, just had that vibe, turns out he was just deep into the S&M scene, but he was a profound observer, funny as hell, would push people by saying off oclor things, and would say some profound things as well, like everything is an exchange of energy, be gentle. A true adept of S&M I guess lol.