Split from The face of a guru - kindness versus emptiness

[Karl]

You are obviously not familiar with knowing without conceptualizing.

It is beyond the mind.

It is what samadhi is about.

It is what spiritualism is about.

Beyond ideas and thoughts.

Your problem is that you think logic and reason are the centre of the universe when in fact they are but an insignificant part of your makeup.

What do you think ultimate boddhicitta is?

 

I'm absolutely familiar with knowing without conceptualising because that how I do most actions. That's because the conceptualisation so are held as gestalt packets. However, using those gestalt memories requires decisions to be made both prior and during their use.

 

That's why I say that 'beyond mind' just means subconscious action and then there is no mysticism. There is also less thought (mind involvement ) if indecision is limited. The less complex our lives, the simpler becomes the thinking. Limiting attachment and the desires that go with the false self is all part of that. Again, there isn't any mysticism with that. Simplify life and simplify the mess of unproductive thought.

 

Reason and logic are just part of the whole and are a means of identifying reality and reducing error. They are another good option for simplification as they prevent a mess of irrational thoughts clogging up the creative mind and allow an easier tune into our own moral code. The closer we stay to our moral codes the less friction there is.

 

It's all part of the same thing, like a circle. Get one bit out of whack and it acts as the weakest link in the chain.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I'm absolutely familiar with knowing without conceptualising because that how I do most actions. That's because the conceptualisation so are held as gestalt packets. However, using those gestalt memories requires decisions to be made both prior and during their use. That's why I say that 'beyond mind' just means subconscious action and then there is no mysticism. There is also less thought (mind involvement ) if indecision is limited. The less complex our lives, the simpler becomes the thinking. Limiting attachment and the desires that go with the false self is all part of that. Again, there isn't any mysticism with that. Simplify life and simplify the mess of unproductive thought. Reason and logic are just part of the whole and are a means of identifying reality and reducing error. They are another good option for simplification as they prevent a mess of irrational thoughts clogging up the creative mind and allow an easier tune into our own moral code. The closer we stay to our moral codes the less friction there is. It's all part of the same thing, like a circle. Get one bit out of whack and it acts as the weakest link in the chain.

You missed it again.

When you shine the light of consciousness on the unconscious or subconscious it becomes conscious or conceptual. It is not that for that is still mind.

You are talking about divisions in consciousness. I am talking about something beyond.

[Karl]

You missed it again.

When you shine the light of consciousness on the unconscious or subconscious it becomes conscious or conceptual. It is not that for that is still mind.

You are talking about divisions in consciousness. I am talking about something beyond.

 

Think of the 3 Treasures.  (Yutang) 

 

Never be the first

Never Too Much

Love

 

We all have the capacity to be the Sage - it is, after all, within us.  To have these three treasures ingrained into our behavior, to see it as a perfect model for behavior - we can choose to align ourselves as much or as little as we see fit.  There are some folks on the Bums, myself included, who takes inner cultivation very seriously.  These are ideals that we set for our own behavior.  These ideals extend to each and every person on the face of the planet, hence the Love.  And I pick up road kill, for crying out loud, and carry it off to the side of the road.  I don't care what I'm wearing or the fact that I have bare hands.  I do it to honor the dead raccoon or dear or squirrel - and to put it back into the chain of life by allowing the vultures and crows to get to it.  This too is love, the love of the All of Life. 

 

Staying in the Now, at risk of sounding trite, is the only way to feel, experience, and convey this kind of Love of Life.  It can't be done if there is inner dialogue of yesterday or tomorrow.  It must be done each and every moment, realizing the unfolding of new forms in front of us constantly; with the curiosity and innocence of a child.

 

We are all capable of this.  It does require doing an awful lot of work to get the ego under your command, so you are not reacting as a result of its stimuli.  This is where the self-cultivation comes in.  It does require the ability to Be, wherever we are, in a state of no-thought.  We are all capable of this too; most of us have been meditating for years around here.

 

Of course, Karl, I admit that I'm not there all the time.  Are you?  I know that it's becoming more and more natural for me to be in that state, regardless of whether I am home or in town.  The gaps between thoughts are becoming longer and longer.  This is a reward that has been a long time in coming for me, and I am realizing for perhaps the first time in my life what it means to flatten out the 'landscape of my heart'.

 

Stosh, my first few paragraphs were headed your way, re: the motivation being stroking my own ego.  It no longer is, that I can see.  Course it could always be I've got a big log in my eye.

 

Sounds good.

[Karl]

You missed it again.

When you shine the light of consciousness on the unconscious or subconscious it becomes conscious or conceptual. It is not that for that is still mind.

You are talking about divisions in consciousness. I am talking about something beyond.

 

'Beyond' isn't someplace I'm ever intending to go, I prefer here and now.

[Nikolai1]

Yes, that describes awareness on a subjective/objective perceptive, but it doesn't take into account the mystical Beyond.  I see it as a pretty left brain account of awareness.

All conversations with the likes of Karl will reduce to this statement.

 

The mystical beyond is either known in your deepest heart - the certainness behind all certainty...or it is not known at all.

 

And alas, our deepest certainties are beyong description.

 

We cannot tell or show Karl.  He either believes us or he doesn't.

[Jonesboy]

You aren't going to like this, but you should read it. http://dbgak.net/Presentation.pdf Sent from my iPad

That is sad Karl.

 

I am so sorry for you my friend.

[Karl]

All conversations with the likes of Karl will reduce to this statement.

 

The mystical beyond is either known in your deepest heart - the certainness behind all certainty...or it is not known at all.

 

And alas, our deepest certainties are beyong description.

 

We cannot tell or show Karl. He either believes us or he doesn't.

I believe that you believe it :-)

Edited September 18, 2015 by Karl

[Karl]

That is sad Karl.I am so sorry for you my friend.

 

I'm not sorry or sad for you though so it's a wasted emotion, you could probably find something much better to hang it on.

[Jonesboy]

I'm not sorry or sad for you though so it's a wasted emotion, you could probably find something much better to hang it on.

Compassion doesn't matter if it is returned or not.

 

It is far from wasted.

 

I will say you are trapped and you are making the trap bigger and bigger for yourself.

 

All the best on your journey.

 

Tom

[Karl]

Compassion doesn't matter if it is returned or not.It is far from wasted.I will say you are trapped and you are making the trap bigger and bigger for yourself.All the best on your journey.Tom

 

You are welcome to your opinion. I say you are journeying up a culdesac and can take a simple shortcut which doesn't cause the issues meditation can cause for some people. Not that it necessarily will for you, but it can be a lot of effort to discover you didn't exit the bed, just turned top to tail. Still that does somewhat focus the mind by removing one pointless route.

[Stosh]

You aren't going to like this, but you should read it.]

 

 

 

 

 

I thought it interesting but flawed since it doesnt appear to admit ,what some experience as positive effect. The thrust says meditation is malfunction. Its like the answer you would get asking a shrink what cured is. essentially .. when youre just like people expect. Like themselves. If you look at the general population, theres a lot of misery and malfunction. Im not saying meditation makes perfection, but the general population is hardly the shining model it pretends to be, pretends to honor. So essentially, without a valid standard of happiness or functionality all this description provides is a template on meditation, the disparaging conclusion is not an objective one. The author might as well toss in some fire and brimstone, threatening to start the burning of witches... and a prayer.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

Edited September 19, 2015 by Stosh

[Karl]

You aren't going to like this, but you should read it.]

I thought it interesting but flawed since it doesnt appear to admit ,what some experience as positive effect. The thrust says meditation is malfunction. Its like the answer you would get asking a shrink what cured is. essentially .. when youre just like people expect. Like themselves. If you look at the general population, theres a lot of misery and malfunction. Im not saying meditation makes perfection, but the general population is hardly the shining model it pretends to be, pretends to honor. So essentially, without a valid standard of happiness or functionality all this description provides is a template on meditation, the disparaging conclusion is not an objective one. The author might as well toss in some fire and brimstone, threatening to start the burning of witches... and a prayer.

Sent from my iPad

 

That's just the PDF file. There is a full interview and commentary after on the website. The writer-Bill Joslin- has been meditating for over 19 years plus many more esoteric practices and has been a teacher for several years. In the following discussions he says that meditation is a useful tool to get to know how you think, and the subtle nuances of mood. I agree with that, it is exactly how it seems to me. He said that the positive effects are achieved within a few weeks-I think a bit longer is required from my own experience I would say 6 months/whenever the practitioner can detect the subtle flow of thought/emotion.

 

There are several discussions on the scientific/medical testing of people during meditation and Bill has observed some of the trials and says they are not double blind tests and are flawed.

 

I would say that most people would get faster results from studying the Trivium and of course that has a measurable educational value in terms of improved thinking. It's the improved thinking that throws out all the misery, dark thoughts etc and clears the mind on a permanent basis. However, I always keep in mind that I did meditate consistently for 8 years before starting the trivium and so I can't spilt the two, but it was abundantly clear that the trivium surpassed anything I had gained during meditation/mindfulness/self Inquiry by a long way.

 

The issue with meditation is when it becomes intense practice, particularly under a teacher. It's literally brain washing. Even flying solo you can find the edge of the disintegration of self.

 

I was reading Manitou's comments and wondered if she had reached that edge? However, the later replies to your posts re-assured me she had not reached that point and was more than likely 'acting'. A lot of esoteric practices can be 'imagined' (like you did as a child when you wore a cape and pretended to be batman), so the results are more 'acting out happiness/ success'. There is nothing wrong with doing that, particularly if it helps act a happy person than a depressed one. Yet, serious practice can be harmful. The disintegration can become real. A teacher will tell you not to fear this edge point and to 'let go' or some such thing. Anyone who teaches that point will know it and hospital wards are full of people who got to that point without meditation, but by trauma/psychosis. They give up self responsibility completely as their minds just won't cope with the stress/ emotion. The answer is to use meditation but with care-regard it as a 'get to know me better' casual thing, than trying for a joining of the 'all'.

[Stosh]

Thats better, he intended to be cautionary, but in a stand alone un mitigated presentation it looks extremely negative. Doesnt he know thats bad karma ?

Would I be right if I guessed the clinical style of dissection appeals to you?

It does to me , but the conclusion part , as I said , didnt seem right. Your additional background info fixes that.

As far as acting goes, .. we all play roles ,fill our lives with illusions we love and hate, and in the end it can be unclear as to which could be said to be realer.

I hope these heavy clouds outside clear. Seems like they show up special for the weekends.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Stosh

[Stosh]

I dont suppose those hospital wards have bigger wings filled with broken meditators..?

[manitou]

Yes, I'm in one of the bigger wings.  5 point restraints at the moment...

[bax44]

The thing is Karl, for every one account like "Bill Joslin" one can easily find tens or hundreds of opposite accounts of what meditation has done for someone in a positive long lasting manner. And just because it didnt work for you, which ive no doubt it apparently didnt, doesnt mean plenty of others havent benefitted in a remarkable manner. Your trivium method is anothers meditation is anothers prayer is anothers contemplation and so on and on. Im sure you view the trivium method from the prism of reason and logic and for you thats a great way to break free , and Its awesome you found it works for you but dont discount other ways as well. Although I havent personally followed their methods- thedharmaoverground.com is a great place for a logical thinker such as yourself to go check out how meditation can be approached from a very practical, step by step way to "awakening"  or whatever. These guys have maps etc that they use to guide them through their meditation experiences based on the teachings of the buddha. You should really check it out as I think for you it may give you a different more "scientific" view of meditation and what it can actually do to/for people.

Edited September 19, 2015 by bax44

[bax44]

I looked up this Joslin guy and while Im not doubting he may have some valid points or agruments about meditation that are relevant-FOR HIM- I had to laugh a little bit when he proclaims meditation is a form of "Mind control" by "gurus" etc trying to get something from their students- then, in the comment section I read how those who are following Joslins work are eager to ahem, cough up their $$$ in order to hear more of his teachings etc. Kettle meet pot or something something. hehe. I am not saying their isnt value in his thoughts or whatever, its just an..interesting dichotomy.

Edited September 19, 2015 by bax44

[Jonesboy]

You are welcome to your opinion. I say you are journeying up a culdesac and can take a simple shortcut which doesn't cause the issues meditation can cause for some people. Not that it necessarily will for you, but it can be a lot of effort to discover you didn't exit the bed, just turned top to tail. Still that does somewhat focus the mind by removing one pointless route.

What is it that you don't believe Karl?

 

Where are you at that you don't believe what is next is possible?

[Karl]

Perhaps I am acting.  The only edge I've been to is the one where you're alone, all alone out there in the darkness.  There is no other presence there, no sense of presence at all.  The identity falls off around you.  You get an absolute feeling that you have the choice of returning or not.  It is terrifying.  Are you speaking of another edge that I missed?

 

I don't think you have come to it. There are a lot of false starts in which it's possible to act out/practice what you are ultimately intending to do. You can skirt around and play at it, but, there is a point where I knew it had turned serious. It was at that point I wound down the practices trying to discover which one was causing it. It was the meditation.

[Karl]

The thing is Karl, for every one account like "Bill Joslin" one can easily find tens or hundreds of opposite accounts of what meditation has done for someone in a positive long lasting manner. And just because it didnt work for you, which ive no doubt it apparently didnt, doesnt mean plenty of others havent benefitted in a remarkable manner. Your trivium method is anothers meditation is anothers prayer is anothers contemplation and so on and on. Im sure you view the trivium method from the prism of reason and logic and for you thats a great way to break free , and Its awesome you found it works for you but dont discount other ways as well. Although I havent personally followed their methods- thedharmaoverground.com is a great place for a logical thinker such as yourself to go check out how meditation can be approached from a very practical, step by step way to "awakening"  or whatever. These guys have maps etc that they use to guide them through their meditation experiences based on the teachings of the buddha. You should really check it out as I think for you it may give you a different more "scientific" view of meditation and what it can actually do to/for people.

 

I think you are perhaps confusing what works and how something works. Make no mistake about it. If you want to lose your mind, then serious meditation will do it. That's what everyone's says they want and that's exactly what they will get. The Trivium isn't something that works in that way, it is 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Meditation will give primacy of consciousness and the Trivium, primacy of reality. The first will absolve the practitioner of responsibility the second installs full conscious responsibility. The choice is not mine to make, maybe for some, the first option is where they want to be. I'm putting the yellow light on that's all. Just check it's really what you want, combine some reasoning with the meditation and ask 'what' is is doing and 'what' is it you are trying to achieve by it.

[Karl]

What is it that you don't believe Karl?

Where are you at that you don't believe what is next is possible?

 

It's entirely possible and highly probable. The question should be 'do I want this'?

[Karl]

I looked up this Joslin guy and while Im not doubting he may have some valid points or agruments about meditation that are relevant-FOR HIM- I had to laugh a little bit when he proclaims meditation is a form of "Mind control" by "gurus" etc trying to get something from their students- then, in the comment section I read how those who are following Joslins work are eager to ahem, cough up their $$$ in order to hear more of his teachings etc. Kettle meet pot or something something. hehe. I am not saying their isnt value in his thoughts or whatever, its just an..interesting dichotomy.

 

Yes, always be aware of that. There again the garage mechanic asks you to cough up cash to put in the car. The mind control bit can be for more than just money. Sometimes it's just cult and power. Particular it's male gurus and Female students. Bill is as entitled to make money as anyone else and he suggests strongly that anyone should properly examine the motives of any teacher that is messing with mind. It's a pity parents don't consider that when they send their kids off to a group of strangers at a state school.

[Karl]

Yes, I'm in one of the bigger wings. 5 point restraints at the moment...

Ooh what are you flying manitou ?

Edited September 19, 2015 by Karl

[manitou]

Ooh what are you flying manitou ?

 

 

Not sure if it's a plane wing or a hospital wing.  All I know is I can't move.

[bax44]

I think you are perhaps confusing what works and how something works. Make no mistake about it. If you want to lose your mind, then serious meditation will do it. That's what everyone's says they want and that's exactly what they will get. The Trivium isn't something that works in that way, it is 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Meditation will give primacy of consciousness and the Trivium, primacy of reality. The first will absolve the practitioner of responsibility the second installs full conscious responsibility. The choice is not mine to make, maybe for some, the first option is where they want to be. I'm putting the yellow light on that's all. Just check it's really what you want, combine some reasoning with the meditation and ask 'what' is is doing and 'what' is it you are trying to achieve by it.

 

Oh I dont know, Ive been seriously meditating for a few years and I havent "lost my mind" yet. As far as "full conscious responsibility" If anything I am both more aware of my own bullshit and others as well, and thusly am able to assert better my will in situations i used to find terrifying that dont phase me as much anymore. Sure theres been some rough spots but on the whole its been a net gain. This seems to be a very vague gross over generalization on your part, perhaps regurgitated? I hope not. Also I am not super familiar with the trivium, but on first glance it appears it could lead someone to be very much "in their head" and not acting very instinctively. I could be totally wrong but I have found in my life I have made some of my best decisions when I didnt over analyze and try to reason everything out..when I really dug deep and tried my best to think my way through adecision i inevitably fucked it up haha. Maybe im doing it wrong:)

Edited September 19, 2015 by bax44