Split from The face of a guru - kindness versus emptiness

[bax44]

Yes, always be aware of that. There again the garage mechanic asks you to cough up cash to put in the car. The mind control bit can be for more than just money. Sometimes it's just cult and power. Particular it's male gurus and Female students. Bill is as entitled to make money as anyone else and he suggests strongly that anyone should properly examine the motives of any teacher that is messing with mind. It's a pity parents don't consider that when they send their kids off to a group of strangers at a state school.

 

I agree with this, but again this is a totally seperate argument than just meditation effects. Someone should always be aware of anothers agenda especially when vulnerability of the mind is involved. But this is where reasoning, along with intuition can be a great team. I agree about the school part hehe.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I don't think you have come to it. There are a lot of false starts in which it's possible to act out/practice what you are ultimately intending to do. You can skirt around and play at it, but, there is a point where I knew it had turned serious. It was at that point I wound down the practices trying to discover which one was causing it. It was the meditation.

It really bothers me when someone uses a vague term like "meditation".

There are so many kinds of meditation. TM, DM, Anapannasati, breath meditation, body scanning, vispassana, inner smile, stillness meditation, loving kindness etc etc etc. and within each of the many categories, there are variations like focusing on the nostrils, or the lower abdomen, or the chest, or the place you know the breath etc etc etc.

To neglect to clarify specifically which meditation you are referring to is a travesty. You are lumping all into one category.

Further, if you were to name specific meditations, how do you know you were performing the "meditation" correctly?

TM is known to produce psychosis in some cases after extended practice. DM is a form of TM.

 

So, what are you calling meditation?

Edited September 19, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[bax44]

Yes and meditation can literally be ANYTHING. I used to feel in a meditative state when I was "in the zone" playing sports. Id consider my workouts a meditation. I agree Tibetan ice, like I said, a gross over generalization.

[Karl]

Thats better, he intended to be cautionary, but in a stand alone un mitigated presentation it looks extremely negative. Doesnt he know thats bad karma ?

Would I be right if I guessed the clinical style of dissection appeals to you?

It does to me , but the conclusion part , as I said , didnt seem right. Your additional background info fixes that.

As far as acting goes, .. we all play roles ,fill our lives with illusions we love and hate, and in the end it can be unclear as to which could be said to be realer.

I hope these heavy clouds outside clear. Seems like they show up special for the weekends.

 

It didn't appeal, it was a bit over complex for me. It really only says exactly what most meditators say.

[Karl]

Oh I dont know, Ive been seriously meditating for a few years and I havent "lost my mind" yet. As far as "full conscious responsibility" If anything I am both more aware of my own bullshit and others as well, and thusly am able to assert better my will in situations i used to find terrifying that dont phase me as much anymore. Sure theres been some rough spots but on the whole its been a net gain. This seems to be a very vague gross over generalization on your part, perhaps regurgitated? I hope not. Also I am not super familiar with the trivium, but on first glance it appears it could lead someone to be very much "in their head" and not acting very instinctively. I could be totally wrong but I have found in my life I have made some of my best decisions when I didnt over analyze and try to reason everything out..when I really dug deep and tried my best to think my way through adecision i inevitably fucked it up haha. Maybe im doing it wrong:)

 

It doesn't always lead there, just the same as most people can take LSD without any issue. It is more about the effect that the meditator is trying to achieve.

 

It's not about decision making, it's about the concepts you use for decision making.

[bax44]

It doesn't always lead there, just the same as most people can take LSD without any issue. It is more about the effect that the meditator is trying to achieve. It's not about decision making, it's about the concepts you use for decision making.

 Im afraid you would have to do a little better than that. There are risks to everything. The way you have presented it is as if meditation is a mind control experiment or some such thing.(at least that was part of what I got from the guy you linked to)I could with the same amount of "terror alert Red" type thinking most likely find the same type of risks in your trivium method. Doesnt make it remotely true for 95 percent of people, especially on a forum full of people who meditate.And as has been pointed out there are numerous "meditation"methods that can have unique and differing results, which I think is what youre trying to say with the effect the meditator is trying to achieve. I think your argument would get more traction on a less practice heavy forum, as  opposed to long term meditators most of which are still doing it  because it Probably has helped them lol. But im sure we all appreciate the warning:) And I guess Im not smart enough to get your last sentence.

Edited September 19, 2015 by bax44

[Karl]

It really bothers me when someone uses a vague term like "meditation".

There are so many kinds of meditation. TM, DM, Anapannasati, breath meditation, body scanning, vispassana, inner smile, stillness meditation, loving kindness etc etc etc. and within each of the many categories, there are variations like focusing on the nostrils, or the lower abdomen, or the chest, or the place you know the breath etc etc etc.

To neglect to clarify specifically which meditation you are referring to is a travesty. You are lumping all into one category.

Further, if you were to name specific meditations, how do you know you were performing the "meditation" correctly?

TM is known to produce psychosis in some cases after extended practice. DM is a form of TM.

So, what are you calling meditation?

 

I don't. That's for the practitioner to decide how it fits with their practice. Bill Joslin seems to have a good understanding of many of the different styles of practice. I only know DM so that's my only direct experience.

[Karl]

 Im afraid you would have to do a little better than that. There are risks to everything. The way you have presented it is as if meditation is a mind control experiment or some such thing.(at least that was part of what I got from the guy you linked to)I could with the same amount of "terror alert Red" type thinking most likely find the same type of risks in your trivium method. Doesnt make it remotely true for 95 percent of people, especially on a forum full of people who meditate. I think your argument would get more traction on a less practice heavy forum, as  opposed to long term meditators most of which are still doing it not because it sent them to the looney bin lol.But im sure we all appreciate the warning:) And I guess Im not smart enough to get your last sentence.

 

 

It's a warning could and should be applied to everything. From what is read in a book, heard in a lyric, written in tablets of stone or told by the greatest man in the world. Meditation, Trivium or the local paper we should apply the same critical thinking to what we shovel into our consciousness.

[Karl]

Yes and meditation can literally be ANYTHING. I used to feel in a meditative state when I was "in the zone" playing sports. Id consider my workouts a meditation. I agree Tibetan ice, like I said, a gross over generalization.

 

Workouts aren't a deliberate meditation. Work outs are workouts and the focus that goes with them is part of the work. There isn't any attempt to destroy ego, find emptiness or merge with the all. Many advanced meditators talk about the primacy of consciousness as being the aim of meditation. That's certainly not how we normally see the world, so this is an attempt to deliberately change that without questioning what that will do.

[Jonesboy]

Workouts aren't a deliberate meditation. Work outs are workouts and the focus that goes with them is part of the work. There isn't any attempt to destroy ego, find emptiness or merge with the all. Many advanced meditators talk about the primacy of consciousness as being the aim of meditation. That's certainly not how we normally see the world, so this is an attempt to deliberately change that without questioning what that will do.

What are you afraid it will do?

Edited September 19, 2015 by Jonesboy

[bax44]

It's a warning could and should be applied to everything. From what is read in a book, heard in a lyric, written in tablets of stone or told by the greatest man in the world. Meditation, Trivium or the local paper we should apply the same critical thinking to what we shovel into our consciousness.

 

Wow really? warnings applied to everything? not really my idea of fun but ok. You analyze things to this great a depth? A song lyric? fascinating. And I wasnt aware meditation was the practice of shoveling stuff into our consciousness, in my experience its the exact opposite.

[bax44]

Workouts aren't a deliberate meditation. Work outs are workouts and the focus that goes with them is part of the work. There isn't any attempt to destroy ego, find emptiness or merge with the all. Many advanced meditators talk about the primacy of consciousness as being the aim of meditation. That's certainly not how we normally see the world, so this is an attempt to deliberately change that without questioning what that will do.

 

Ok not a "deliberate" meditation but it certainly can be "meditative". Just as playing music or listening to music or walking or running or driving can all be a meditation. But i wont get into semantics as I am aware this isnt specifically what youre talking about. There are people who do strictly walking type meditations btw. Did you "normally" see the world the way the Trivium instructs you to see it before you undertook the practice? Did you need to know beforehand exactly precisely what the practice would do to/for you before you undertook it?Im curious.

Edited September 19, 2015 by bax44

[Tibetan_Ice]

I don't. That's for the practitioner to decide how it fits with their practice. Bill Joslin seems to have a good understanding of many of the different styles of practice. I only know DM so that's my only direct experience.

Does Bill Joslin have practical experience in nirvikalpa samadhi? I don't think so.

 

LESSON 265 FROM MERGING WITH SIVA

KUNDALINI, THE SPIRITUAL FORCE

 

Hatha yoga (ha-pingala and tha-ida) balances the two forces, the ida and the pingala. The straight, erect spine releases the actinodic flow of the sushumna current. The mind centered in the contemplative atmosphere, cognizing timelessness, causelessness, spacelessness while sitting in the lotus position, awakens the pineal and pituitary centers, and the door of Brahman at the top of the head.

 

The force of the actinodic causal body, the sheath of cognition, vijnanamaya kosha, a pure actinic force running through the sushumna current, is called the kundalini. As this kundalini force becomes activated, the sushumna power begins to grow, or the actinodic causal body begins to grow, and the higher chakras of cognition and universal love begin to spin faster. Once kundalini power has been activated, its force expands or contracts consciousness. As man's consciousness expands into actinic spheres, more kundalini power is used. This power is lessened as his consciousness emerges into the limited fields of the odic world.

 

Often known as the serpent power, the kundalini is coiled at the base of the spine in the instinctive man who resides mostly in the force fields of memory and fear. When this power becomes uncoiled, the serpent, or kundalini, luminously raises its head, and finally, after nirvikalpa samadhi, it lifts its power to the top of the head.

 

When nirvikalpa samadhi has been practiced daily for many, many years--according to the classical yoga teachings, for twelve years--and the golden body has been built, the kundalini force coils itself in the sahasrara chakra of the yogi, at the top of the head. This is known as the manas chakra, located about where the hairline begins at the forehead. This chakra eventually becomes the muladhara chakra, or the memory-pattern chakra, of the golden body. The manas chakra is fully activated when the golden body is fully unfolded. This is known in Hindu and Egyptian mystic schools as the golden body of light, for it registers in the minds of those who look upon it, to their soul body, as a golden ball of light or a golden body.

 

When the kundalini rises into the realms of pure actinicity, the pineal gland and pituitary center are activated. When these two centers are activated simultaneously, the forces of both of them merge, bringing man into nirvikalpa samadhi. Therefore, the aggressive odic force merges with the passive odic force, in perfect balance, and the actinodic power of the sushumna current comes into perfect balance, poised with the kundalini force. The yoga adept finds himself on the brink of the Absolute, cognizing That which he cannot explain, knowing there is something beyond which the mind does not know, conceiving That which cannot be conceived, because form, which is mind, cannot conceive formlessness. Then the yogi touches into the Self and becomes a knower of the Self, merges with Siva.

 

When the ida, pingala and sushumna forces merge and reside in perfect balance, the third eye awakens. When the pituitary, pineal glands and the sushumna source are in perfect balance, man is able to perceive consciously into other worlds of the mind. The golden body, as it begins to grow after the renunciate, or sannyasin, attains nirvikalpa samadhi, is built by man's service to his fellow man.

 

From Merging With Shiva... http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

[Karl]

What are you afraid it will do?

 

For me it won't do anything. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence on forums throughout the websphere of people who have experienced traumatic 'overloading' and enough evidence of the techniques of brainwashing to know that more extreme meditation efforts do work in that way.

 

I think it's a waste of time past a certain point where you can detect subtle thought and undertones of mind. It's a bit like developing an accurate gauging system which enables the practitioner to witness their own thoughts and moods as definined internal activity. Beyond that point practitioners will either continue to practice for no particular advantage, or move towards the permanent destruction of the border between self and world-few will do that, although they will often act as if they have and wax lyrically and poetically about the experience.

 

Once a practitioner knows the subtle currents of thought and emotion then there is no more to learn. There is no mastery or refinement although I'm sure I will catch hell for saying so. That's why I say you should appraise the achievements and decide if it's become a habitual practice/part of the ego (I am the meditator, I am follower of the Tao etc), or are they headed towards self annhialation for real and then they should ask what is driving to do that because it isn't normal, it's self abuse, a mental version of self harming/ destruction. If on the other hand you just like to sit and do the meditate practices because it's pleasurable to do so then carry on doing so, it won't harm anymore than any other repeated activity.

[Karl]

Does Bill Joslin have practical experience in nirvikalpa samadhi? I don't think so.

From Merging With Shiva... http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

 

TI it doesn't matter.

 

He has formulated a theory of the effects of meditative practices which accords with many experiences of it. He could equally of done the same for taking psychoactive drugs, it isn't necessary to have taken every drug to make the inductive leap. If you are happy to continue doing what you are doing and want to ignore the theory then that's up to you isn't it ? Its just another piece of information that you can choose to integrate or, ignore as erroneous. This is the realm of reasoning. the problem is that you deal in polarities and therefore turn it into an argument you must win, instead of something to be evaluated.

 

I agree with his evaluation and theory, you do not, but your argument swings around a circumstantial ad hominem which wishes to crush the argument, because the proponent hasn't tried every possible combination of practices. This is equivalent to saying 'what can a man know about pregnancy because he isn't a woman'. It's a false argument.

[Karl]

Wow really? warnings applied to everything? not really my idea of fun but ok. You analyze things to this great a depth? A song lyric? fascinating. And I wasnt aware meditation was the practice of shoveling stuff into our consciousness, in my experience its the exact opposite.

 

Where did you get the instructions for practicing meditation ? What were the advantages promised ? What was the philosophy followed and what made you so sure it was a good philosophy ?

 

See, these subtle things of mind you have only witnessed during a very introspective self examination, but you have completely failed to do the same with the input of the instruction that has led you to that action. This is a logical loop. You went straight to the why and how ? But completely ignored the what, when, where?

 

Even subtle words of song and nursery rhyme are amazingly powerful. This is where 'sound bites' came from. There isn't a need to subjectively analyse everything unless you mean to absorb it, however, if you don't have the defences to stop it being absorbed then manipulator can make use of that fact and you will absorb it without being aware that it is now part of your conscious belief.

 

If I wanted to I could boot one past your sleeping goal keeper. I deliberately refrain from doing so, but I have all the techniques and tricks and the certificates to prove it. Others are far less concerned about what you absorb and I'm saying you should wake up your goal keeper and keep him primed and alert. The Trivium does that.

[Stosh]

Whats this booting one past the sleeping goal keeper? You think you can implant something in My head ,right here, on forum? COOL, I wanna see this !

[Karl]

Whats this booting one past the sleeping goal keeper? You think you can implant something in My head ,right here, on forum? COOL, I wanna see this !

 

Why ? You think it's cool to do that ? It's breaking and entering knowing full well that the state has already got you to leave the chain off the door and the windows open. Funnily enough, last week our friends at GCHQ were telling everyone to stop using complex passwords and look on their website to find common passwords such as : password and 123456. They can hack your brain and now they wish to physically hack your communications.

[Tibetan_Ice]

TI it doesn't matter. He has formulated a theory of the effects of meditative practices which accords with many experiences of it. He could equally of done the same for taking psychoactive drugs, it isn't necessary to have taken every drug to make the inductive leap. If you are happy to continue doing what you are doing and want to ignore the theory then that's up to you isn't it ? Its just another piece of information that you can choose to integrate or, ignore as erroneous. This is the realm of reasoning. the problem is that you deal in polarities and therefore turn it into an argument you must win, instead of something to be evaluated. I agree with his evaluation and theory, you do not, but your argument swings around a circumstantial ad hominem which wishes to crush the argument, because the proponent hasn't tried every possible combination of practices. This is equivalent to saying 'what can a man know about pregnancy because he isn't a woman'. It's a false argument.

Well what a load of crap.

A man will never know what it feels like to be pregnant because he can never have the experience.

Only those whom have had the experience have the right to present their observations as knowledge.

If one wants to accept the observations from someone whom has never had the experience, then they are a fool.

Knowing about some thing is not the same as experiencing it. Knowing about something is just a borrowed belief.

[bax44]

Where did you get the instructions for practicing meditation ? What were the advantages promised ? What was the philosophy followed and what made you so sure it was a good philosophy ? See, these subtle things of mind you have only witnessed during a very introspective self examination, but you have completely failed to do the same with the input of the instruction that has led you to that action. This is a logical loop. You went straight to the why and how ? But completely ignored the what, when, where? Even subtle words of song and nursery rhyme are amazingly powerful. This is where 'sound bites' came from. There isn't a need to subjectively analyse everything unless you mean to absorb it, however, if you don't have the defences to stop it being absorbed then manipulator can make use of that fact and you will absorb it without being aware that it is now part of your conscious belief. If I wanted to I could boot one past your sleeping goal keeper. I deliberately refrain from doing so, but I have all the techniques and tricks and the certificates to prove it. Others are far less concerned about what you absorb and I'm saying you should wake up your goal keeper and keep him primed and alert. The Trivium does that.

 

Im re copying my questions from my post further up the page since you either ignored them or decided they werent advantageous to your argument to answer:

 

You said meditation changes the way one "normally" sees the world.Did you "normally" see the world the way the Trivium instructs you to see it before you undertook the practice? Did you need to know beforehand exactly precisely what the practice would do to/for you before you undertook it?

 

As far as where I personally got the "instructions" to practice meditation, well actually it was recommended to me by an infectious disease doctor funnily enough who I was seeing for health issues. His instructions were to simply follow the breath and I was told to give it a shot to calm my overactive inflamed nervous system down. There was absolutely no philosophy involved or followed. In fact I did not even attempt a meditation for a whole year after this suggestion because quite frankly I thought it was bullshit. I tried one night for 20 min and enjoyed the relaxation effect and my body and mind continued to enjoy it so I have practiced everyday for the past 21/2 years between 20min and 2 hours/day depending on the mood. I have also incorporated standing meditation which again involved absolutely no philosophy or dogma other than bringing health benefits. From doing these things I have beneffited greatly in ways simple words cant describe. I never ignored any why, when, or how. In fact the why, when and how got in my way from ever starting in the first place and actually to my detriment. I dont doubt there is programming going on everywhere and of course one should be mindful of what they ingest etc, in fact I try my best to ignore most media and I have a select few tv programs which I enjoy. Music, well, Im a sucker for music if it  moves my emotions so Im sure Im "absorbing" some stuff into my subconscious thats fing w my programming. Gangsta rap and dubstep can do  that but it gets me pumped to take on the day. Other than that I try and have fun and not take myself too seriously otherwise whats the point in being here. Do you believe in the New world order and the illuminati, Karl? not trying to "get one past your goalpost" as it were, just interested/

 

Edit: supposed to be "what when or where", not "why or how"

Edited September 20, 2015 by bax44

[Karl]

Well what a load of crap.

A man will never know what it feels like to be pregnant because he can never have the experience.

Only those whom have had the experience have the right to present their observations as knowledge.

If one wants to accept the observations from someone whom has never had the experience, then they are a fool.

Knowing about some thing is not the same as experiencing it. Knowing about something is just a borrowed belief.

 

Who said 'feels like to be pregnant' ? Joslin has meditated in both Dao and Buddhist form for over 19 years and taught these practices. He certainly does have enough to qualify him to make an argument, just as a doctor/midwife/ nurse or bystander can make an informed decision about pregnancy. Just as you can make the argument that spaceships are orbiting the Earth and the means they employ to maintain the orbit despite not being an astronaut, physicist or technician.

[Karl]

Im re copying my questions from my post further up the page since you either ignored them or decided they werent advantageous to your argument to answer:

 

You said meditation changes the way one "normally" sees the world.Did you "normally" see the world the way the Trivium instructs you to see it before you undertook the practice? Did you need to know beforehand exactly precisely what the practice would do to/for you before you undertook it?

 

As far as where I personally got the "instructions" to practice meditation, well actually it was recommended to me by an infectious disease doctor funnily enough who I was seeing for health issues. His instructions were to simply follow the breath and I was told to give it a shot to calm my overactive inflamed nervous system down. There was absolutely no philosophy involved or followed. In fact I did not even attempt a meditation for a whole year after this suggestion because quite frankly I thought it was bullshit. I tried one night for 20 min and enjoyed the relaxation effect and my body and mind continued to enjoy it so I have practiced everyday for the past 21/2 years between 20min and 2 hours/day depending on the mood. I have also incorporated standing meditation which again involved absolutely no philosophy or dogma other than bringing health benefits. From doing these things I have beneffited greatly in ways simple words cant describe. I never ignored any why, when, or how. In fact the why, when and how got in my way from ever starting in the first place and actually to my detriment. I dont doubt there is programming going on everywhere and of course one should be mindful of what they ingest etc, in fact I try my best to ignore most media and I have a select few tv programs which I enjoy. Music, well, Im a sucker for music if it  moves my emotions so Im sure Im "absorbing" some stuff into my subconscious thats fing w my programming. Gangsta rap and dubstep can do  that but it gets me pumped to take on the day. Other than that I try and have fun and not take myself too seriously otherwise whats the point in being here. Do you believe in the New world order and the illuminati, Karl? not trying to "get one past your goalpost" as it were, just interested/

 

Prior to the Trivium I wasn't armed so I saw the world much as most people see it. It was more difficult to make informed decisions-although it was helped by making a study of Austrian economic philosophy which contained the seed of thinking. I knew precisely what the Trivium was before embarking on the study. It didn't promise anything at all and the reason I looked into it was to ensure I had logical premise in my current novel. I could not have foretold the changes it would make, but then, I wasn't expecting anything beyond applying a bit of logical thought.

 

The new world order/illuminati movement are real. They aren't a matter of conspiracy theory,they are factual, historical groups. That said, there isn't currently one group (the illuminati pretty much died off a few hundred years ago in Austria) but an idea which could be described as 'squaring the circle' or 'to cube the globe' which is now supported by the wider public, who in principle or part support these aims. For instance, even amongst virtual libertarian types on this forum there is support for population control by force. Others support taxation, force, war, state education, big government security etc. So, the new world order ideology is now well embedded and widely supported in different ways and forms. For some it is overt and unthinking (army/police/bureaucracy) others to a lesser extent. This was Plato's republic and hails from the Indian content originally. We are all, to some extent, Policing each other's actions and ideas.

 

Some run off to the woods when glimpsing the truth, others turn to esoteric arts or religion.

[bax44]

Prior to the Trivium I wasn't armed so I saw the world much as most people see it. It was more difficult to make informed decisions-although it was helped by making a study of Austrian economic philosophy which contained the seed of thinking. I knew precisely what the Trivium was before embarking on the study. It didn't promise anything at all and the reason I looked into it was to ensure I had logical premise in my current novel. I could not have foretold the changes it would make, but then, I wasn't expecting anything beyond applying a bit of logical thought. The new world order/illuminati movement are real. They aren't a matter of conspiracy theory,they are factual, historical groups. That said, there isn't currently one group (the illuminati pretty much died off a few hundred years ago in Austria) but an idea which could be described as 'squaring the circle' or 'to cube the globe' which is now supported by the wider public, who in principle or part support these aims. For instance, even amongst virtual libertarian types on this forum there is support for population control by force. Others support taxation, force, war, state education, big government security etc. So, the new world order ideology is now well embedded and widely supported in different ways and forms. For some it is overt and unthinking (army/police/bureaucracy) others to a lesser extent. This was Plato's republic and hails from the Indian content originally. We are all, to some extent, Policing each other's actions and ideas. Some run off to the woods when glimpsing the truth, others turn to esoteric arts or religion.

 

So it appears to me based on what youve said that your experience with the trivium is much like many others with meditation just in a different realm. It does seem to me however that you are still somewhat trapped in a belief system, and a sort of fear based one at that. Wether the nwo or illuminati is real is very much up for debate to say the least. To me it just keeps one in a "someones out to get me" mindset which can most undoubtedly affect ones subconscious just as your arguing meditation does. Do you have legitimate proof of these groups existence? It seems to me you traded one story for another, Karl, No offense. Has the trivium extracted you from the effects of these groups influence, real or imagined? Im sort of confused how someone can claim meditation can be a mind control thing yet out the other side of their mouth has revealed they are very much embedded in a belief system that is dubious, at best. Its ifunny just based on the way you write, I thought you may believe in such things. You may very well be right who knows but for someone who seems to be ultra logical its kind of funny.

 

"once an external authority has gotten you to decide an issue is important,

Youre already under their control-regardless of which side you choose."

Edited September 20, 2015 by bax44

[bax44]

So im not a hypocrite just so you know I used to believe heavily in the new world order and thought everything was a "false flag" or a mind control operation or that my local government officials were secretly out to get me. At some point it occured to me though no matter how much I tried to find proof all it was was a distraction from my life going on at the moment lol. I had all these thoughts about doomsday, Y2k, bilderburg group, listened to coast to coast Am, researched which musical artists were secretly being manipulated to plant ideas in our heads..And.... I found taking my dog for a walk in the park and stop giving a you know what about all of it was much more productive and I became a happier person. I find the less beliefs I have the better, and really everything I think I knew anyway was just nonsense.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Who said 'feels like to be pregnant' ?

 

What it feels like to be pregnant is a part of being pregnant. You settle for conceptual induction when in fact you don't have the whole picture. The experience gives the whole picture.

 

 

 

Joslin has meditated in both Dao and Buddhist form for over 19 years and taught these practices. He certainly does have enough to qualify him to make an argument, just as a doctor/midwife/ nurse or bystander can make an informed decision about pregnancy. Just as you can make the argument that spaceships are orbiting the Earth and the means they employ to maintain the orbit despite not being an astronaut, physicist or technician.

The first thing the taught us in university philosophy is that just because someone has a title does not mean that they speak the truth. You seem to be enamored by titles and certificates. Case in point. Yogani has been at it for over 40 years and look at the crap he has come up with. Joselin and Yogani are in the same league.