Split from The face of a guru - kindness versus emptiness

[Karl]

So it appears to me based on what youve said that your experience with the trivium is much like many others with meditation just in a different realm. It does seem to me however that you are still somewhat trapped in a belief system, and a sort of fear based one at that. Wether the nwo or illuminati is real is very much up for debate to say the least. To me it just keeps one in a "someones out to get me" mindset which can most undoubtedly affect ones subconscious just as your arguing meditation does. Do you have legitimate proof of these groups existence? It seems to me you traded one story for another, Karl, No offense. Has the trivium extracted you from the effects of these groups influence, real or imagined? Im sort of confused how someone can claim meditation can be a mind control thing yet out the other side of their mouth has revealed they are very much embedded in a belief system that is dubious, at best. Its ifunny just based on the way you write, I thought you may believe in such things. You may very well be right who knows but for someone who seems to be ultra logical its kind of funny.

 

"once an external authority has gotten you to decide an issue is important

Youre already under their control-regardless of which side you choose."

 

It's very different to meditation. As I said, meditation gives the ability to have a more intimate view of how I thought and felt. Beyond that -if you are taking practices seriously-there isn't much except continued reinforcing of an ideology. Practice meditation and you get good at meditation. The Trivium is a combing out of what I had absorbed. Imagine a big jigsaw all muddled up in which some pieces match the shape, but not the picture. The Trivium allows a simplification of the puzzle so it can be easily fitted together and the false bits removed. It means a highly accurate rendering of reality as opposed to trying to substitute consciousness primacy as a fluid reality. If meditation leads you to believe nothing is real, then it's easier to believe any old rubbish that passes I front of your eyes.

 

I thought you understood what I was saying re the illuminati and NWO. These are real things. The illuminati being two separate movements of which one existed in 1700s in Austria and the NWO was a stated aim by politicians-I don't think it's a group as such. It could be said that we are all illuminati now to a greater or lesser degree. These are historical facts, but interestingly you believe they aren't. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I can dig out the history if you want, but it's as pointless as discussing Mccarthyism, or the the new deal.

 

I don't think 'out of their influence' is anything like the way I see it. I only want to know reality as closely as possible. The esoteric practices create an 'I'm up and above all this mundane human mess' or even that a meditator has gained certain powers with which they can alter reality so there is no requirement for concern. It's like pretending the attacking tiger is just a cuddly bunny rabbit, or some figment of imagination.

 

At present you don't know so it's difficult to discuss what you don't yet have any access to. Take the red pill and you get to find out just how unpleasant things really are and then how amazing they are too. True Liberty requires knowing reality no matter how difficult it is to accept it. Many people who begin to suspect something isn't quite right will attempt to find ways in which they can make things more bearable- either by trying to mentally seperate themselves from reality, or by full physical separation such as moving to the woods and trying self sufficiency. The Trivium shows how it is without any buffer, it's real and direct-like coming off the soma in Huxleys novel 'A brave new world'.

[Karl]

What it feels like to be pregnant is a part of being pregnant. You settle for conceptual induction when in fact you don't have the whole picture. The experience gives the whole picture.

 

The first thing the taught us in university philosophy is that just because someone has a title does not mean that they speak the truth. You seem to be enamored by titles and certificates. Case in point. Yogani has been at it for over 40 years and look at the crap he has come up with. Joselin and Yogani are in the same league.

 

You have just agreed with what I have said.

 

I don't need to know what it feels like to be pregnant in order to know how it works, what can go wrong, the responsibilities of it, the mental conditions such as post natal depression. I don't need to know it in order to deliver a baby or get a woman pregnant.

 

I'm not at all enamoured by titles and certificates, only in what I can reason as reality. You have picked on the fallacy of vericundiam (appeal to authority), but are using that in defence of your argument. This is your game, you love texts, famous teaching books and fancy sounding rhetoric. Your world revolves around texts you perceive as having prime importance. You aren't thinking. You are trying to persuade by false rhetoric and fallacy. I don't know if you are aware you are doing that ?

[bax44]

edit

Edited September 20, 2015 by bax44

[bax44]

It's very different to meditation. As I said, meditation gives the ability to have a more intimate view of how I thought and felt. Beyond that -if you are taking practices seriously-there isn't much except continued reinforcing of an ideology. Practice meditation and you get good at meditation.

 

Its really a shame that you appear incapable of not making drastic overgeneralizations, because you have somewhat interesting things to say and it just very quickly becomes apparent that your just parroting either someone else or are being very close minded.  what ideology? I am not sure to what ideology you  are referring to. I meditate, then when im done I try and take that into daily life in clear direct experience. For me there is no ideology.Meditation has made me better at..life.  including hopefully seeing reality.

The Trivium is a combing out of what I had absorbed. Imagine a big jigsaw all muddled up in which some pieces match the shape, but not the picture. The Trivium allows a simplification of the puzzle so it can be easily fitted together and the false bits removed. It means a highly accurate rendering of reality as opposed to trying to substitute consciousness primacy as a fluid reality. If meditation leads you to believe nothing is real, then it's easier to believe any old rubbish that passes I front of your eyes.

Again another statement that is just totally contrary to my experience with meditation. Its actually astounding to hear someone describe it this way. Meditation has made me more aware of BS as I said earlier in the thread, including my own most importantly. Its why to me all this super serious word play is actually kind of amusing.

I thought you understood what I was saying re the illuminati and NWO. These are real things. The illuminati being two separate movements of which one existed in 1700s in Austria and the NWO was a stated aim by politicians-I don't think it's a group as such. It could be said that we are all illuminati now to a greater or lesser degree. These are historical facts, but interestingly you believe they aren't. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I can dig out the history if you want, but it's as pointless as discussing Mccarthyism, or the the new deal. I don't think 'out of their influence' is anything like the way I see it. I only want to know reality as closely as possible. The esoteric practices create an 'I'm up and above all this mundane human mess' or even that a meditator has gained certain powers with which they can alter reality so there is no requirement for concern. It's like pretending the attacking tiger is just a cuddly bunny rabbit, or some figment of imagination.

Well forgive me Karl but youll have to provide me with more than that regarding the Nwo and illuminati. I delved deep into the subject back in the day and as I said while entertaining it became as meaningless to me as wether someone labels me a republican or democrat- in othere words it just seemed hollow and insignificant. And once again here your statement about esoteric practices is another sentence that is foreign to me. If anything they have made me much more in touch with my humanity and no I still think the tigers a tiger and the guy with a knife could do me harm. But being more relaxed and with much less fear because my mind is calm gives me a better shot to act if the tiger wants me for dinner.

At present you don't know so it's difficult to discuss what you don't yet have any access to. Take the red pill and you get to find out just how unpleasant things really are and then how amazing they are too. True Liberty requires knowing reality no matter how difficult it is to accept it. Many people who begin to suspect something isn't quite right will attempt to find ways in which they can make things more bearable- either by trying to mentally seperate themselves from reality, or by full physical separation such as moving to the woods and trying self sufficiency. The Trivium shows how it is without any buffer, it's real and direct-like coming off the soma in Huxleys novel 'A brave new world'.

 How lovely, another assumption hehe. I would say you know very little about anything to do with what i know or dont know about the ugly and beautiful sides of life and from my own experience(GASP) I am very aware this life is both sweet and sorrow. I took the red pill a long time ago although since its not the one you prescribe Im sure I dont have super secret access to the code.  But at the same time could a lowly meditator and esoteric minded individual who ironically you said was way above humanity get an explanation of what I dont know? You said it so Id love to have my horizons expanded. Im game.

Edited September 20, 2015 by bax44

[Karl]

I tried my best to answer you based on your accusation that I ignored your question. You are convinced of your argument and I will leave it at that.

[Tibetan_Ice]

You have just agreed with what I have said. I don't need to know what it feels like to be pregnant in order to know how it works, what can go wrong, the responsibilities of it, the mental conditions such as post natal depression. I don't need to know it in order to deliver a baby or get a woman pregnant. I'm not at all enamoured by titles and certificates, only in what I can reason as reality. You have picked on the fallacy of vericundiam (appeal to authority), but are using that in defence of your argument. This is your game, you love texts, famous teaching books and fancy sounding rhetoric. Your world revolves around texts you perceive as having prime importance. You aren't thinking. You are trying to persuade by false rhetoric and fallacy. I don't know if you are aware you are doing that ?

You will never know what it is like to be pregnant.

 

My world revolves around experiences. I look to the texts for possible explanations of those experiences.

 

The world of thinking and thought is a small part of the whole. A very small part.

 

You do not see that presenting Bill Jilson as a seasoned meditator, who teaches/taught is a form of being enamored by titles.

You said "The writer-Bill Joslin- has been meditating for over 19 years plus many more esoteric practices and has been a teacher for several years.". You say one thing and behave the opposite. You are not in a position to evaluate his experiences or accomplishments (or lack of) therefore you rely on his personal history and presentation (title) in order to ascertain his authority.

 

The problem with using a candle to illuminate the darkness is if you blow too hard, the flame goes out.

[Karl]

You will never know what it is like to be pregnant.

My world revolves around experiences. I look to the texts for possible explanations of those experiences.

The world of thinking and thought is a small part of the whole. A very small part.

You do not see that presenting Bill Jilson as a seasoned meditator, who teaches/taught is a form of being enamored by titles.

You said "The writer-Bill Joslin- has been meditating for over 19 years plus many more esoteric practices and has been a teacher for several years.". You say one thing and behave the opposite. You are not in a position to evaluate his experiences or accomplishments (or lack of) therefore you rely on his personal history and presentation (title) in order to ascertain his authority.

The problem with using a candle to illuminate the darkness is if you blow too hard, the flame goes out.

 

I presented it, you can decide if it has value. If you don't-jog along, nothing to see.

You are relying on texts to decide what your experiences are....LOL and if you can't evaluate the writers experiences or lack of accomplishments either.

 

So what are we left with.

 

We have to make our decisions on the value of information by using a knowledge of grammar, the reasoning power of logic and the output of a rhetorical answer.

 

Of course you will regard it as an experience and then look for yet another piece of text to corroborate your own conclusion.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

I presented it, you can decide if it has value. If you don't-jog along, nothing to see. You are relying on texts to decide what your experiences are....LOL and if you can't evaluate the writers experiences or lack of accomplishments either. So what are we left with.We have to make our decisions on the value of information by using a knowledge of grammar, the reasoning power of logic and the output of a rhetorical answer. Of course you will regard it as an experience and then look for yet another piece of text to corroborate your own conclusion.

Trivium is the great destroyer of mysticism, isn't it?

Trivium can't explain rainbow body. It can't explain footprints in stone, past lives... It is like a game of chess. It has its own rules and playing field and when you drop a potato on the board, it simply dismisses it as not part of the game.

What a waste of time!

[Stosh]

Trivium style study of meditation cant answer for anyone the mystery of what awareness itself is, nor why it exists , nor why we experience it . Under the headings of data rhetoric and grammar, all the processes of the human condition are sorted, but none of the components are gone. As Karl said to me earlier, its basically a sorting of what practitioners already describe. It isnt a universal trump card, just a tool. Youve lost nothing.

[Karl]

You are using the Trivium to try and construct an argument. Every time you reason, you are using the Trivium. The problem is that you don't want to play by your own rules, I can argue with you and you aren't losing anything- exactly as Stosh stated. It's only when you go and apply the Trivium more concisely to your own argument that you will reveal the truth of it.

 

No matter what I say you will carry on believing in rainbow bodies, until such a time comes when you may question your belief. Until that time al, you are really trying to do is to persuade me that they are real. That they are real to you I have no doubt, but you haven't provided any proof to substantiate them to my satisfaction.

 

I don't completely agree with Bill Joslin either because he does not provide proof of the specifics of his theory, but I have sufficient experience of meditative practice and I know Bill has quite a lot of experience, so I can make an inductive leap-if not an empirical one-that meditation has some value, but that it isn't the magic carpet ride to some 'otherwhere' except in the mind of the practitioner. It may even be nothing more than a placebo for those already having made the decision/moving towards greater self awareness.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Karl

[Karl]

Trivium style study of meditation cant answer for anyone the mystery of what awareness itself is, nor why it exists , nor why we experience it . Under the headings of data rhetoric and grammar, all the processes of the human condition are sorted, but none of the components are gone. As Karl said to me earlier, its basically a sorting of what practitioners already describe. It isnt a universal trump card, just a tool. Youve lost nothing.

 

Exactly. Science may one day answer these questions, but until then it is an irreducible axiom. TI loses nothing, he can utilise the Trivium more exactly than he is currently using it. He goes looking in texts to answer his experiences, but he doesn't utilise his own logical power pack to become his own scientist.

[Jonesboy]

Wow Karl,

 

So if you don't mind me asking. What is your meditation experience like? What is your day to day experience like?

 

Is your heart opened and do you feel joy during the day radiating outward? Do you reside outside of thoughts or have moments of silence?

 

Are you at the point where you think of someone and you are that person? Do you become one with all that which is around you?

 

Do you feel ecstatic energy in your body during meditation? How about during the day outside of meditation?

 

Just curious as to your experience. It might help explain your positions.

[Karl]

Wow Karl,So if you don't mind me asking. What is your meditation experience like? What is your day to day experience like?Is your heart opened and do you feel joy during the day radiating outward? Do you reside outside of thoughts or have moments of silence?Are you at the point where you think of someone and you are that person? Do you become one with all that which is around you?Do you feel ecstatic energy in your body during meditation? How about during the day outside of meditation?Just curious as to your experience. It might help explain your positions.

 

I don't meditate now.

 

When I was then pretty much all the usual epithets about emptiness, mindfulness, floating along untroubled by life and doing what was in front of me. I recognise all the descriptions and experiences that I read on the forum. Even to the point of having unexplainable synchronicity in which life would offer up things just when and where I needed. It convinced me I had reached the point where things were automatic and effortless. Often I would become tree, animal, person, grass, even rotting logs, rivers, stone and wind. I would certainly say I felt at one and without identity. It was very carefree and joyous. I could and did meditate almost continuously so that 'no thought' stillness of mind was pretty much constant.

 

Yet I knew that something wasn't quite right about the floaty, disconnected feeling. It felt almost drug induced. Pleasant but Somatic. However, I wasn't consciously looking for anything to change when a post on disqus pointed me towards the occult and the work of John Gatto. The post was quite a strange one, the writer didn't elaborate, he just mentioned these subjects in reply to a quote I had posted about the Matrix in connection with economics. You know the old saying 'when the student is ready the guru will appear'. So, I followed the signpost........

[allinone]

I don't meditate now. When I was then pretty much all the usual epithets about emptiness, mindfulness, floating along untroubled by life and doing what was in front of me. I recognise all the descriptions and experiences that I read on the forum. Even to the point of having unexplainable synchronicity in which life would offer up things just when and where I needed. It convinced me I had reached the point where things were automatic and effortless. Often I would become tree, animal, person, grass, even rotting logs, rivers, stone and wind. I would certainly say I felt at one and without identity. It was very carefree and joyous. I could and did meditate almost continuously so that 'no thought' stillness of mind was pretty much constant. Yet I knew that something wasn't quite right about the floaty, disconnected feeling. It felt almost drug induced. Pleasant but Somatic. However, I wasn't consciously looking for anything to change when a post on disqus pointed me towards the occult and the work of John Gatto. The post was quite a strange one, the writer didn't elaborate, he just mentioned these subjects in reply to a quote I had posted about the Matrix in connection with economics. You know the old saying 'when the student is ready the guru will appear'. So, I followed the signpost........

 

Ask bigger challenge or higher understanding what you currently have. Already that saying or pledge bears higher vibration. Stagnating on one place just stimulating brain to get joy out of it, is it worth the short time we live?

[Karl]

Ask bigger challenge or higher understanding what you currently have. Already that saying or pledge bears higher vibration. Stagnating on one place just stimulating brain to get joy out of it, is it worth the short time we live?

 

No idea what you are saying ?

[allinone]

No idea what you are saying ?

 

To me it seems for you everything is easy. No suffering etc. I wonder whats wrong with you.

[Jonesboy]

I don't meditate now. When I was then pretty much all the usual epithets about emptiness, mindfulness, floating along untroubled by life and doing what was in front of me. I recognise all the descriptions and experiences that I read on the forum. Even to the point of having unexplainable synchronicity in which life would offer up things just when and where I needed. It convinced me I had reached the point where things were automatic and effortless. Often I would become tree, animal, person, grass, even rotting logs, rivers, stone and wind. I would certainly say I felt at one and without identity. It was very carefree and joyous. I could and did meditate almost continuously so that 'no thought' stillness of mind was pretty much constant. Yet I knew that something wasn't quite right about the floaty, disconnected feeling. It felt almost drug induced. Pleasant but Somatic. However, I wasn't consciously looking for anything to change when a post on disqus pointed me towards the occult and the work of John Gatto. The post was quite a strange one, the writer didn't elaborate, he just mentioned these subjects in reply to a quote I had posted about the Matrix in connection with economics. You know the old saying 'when the student is ready the guru will appear'. So, I followed the signpost........

Thank you for your open and honest answer.

 

I will say that you were doing AYP. SBP left me with my mind floating on clouds. Really a drug induced feeling and it made it hard to concentrate and think.

 

Many have talked how SBP is not grounded and can lead to issues. I think that is what you experienced.

 

For many that can be to much and they don't care to continue along the way. It can be scary. Overloads can do that.

 

I will just say that if you had the ability to think of a thing and be that thing. If you had the ability to think of Jesus and be, experience Jesus I don't think you would be talking like you are now.

[Karl]

Thank you for your open and honest answer.I will say that you were doing AYP. SBP left me with my mind floating on clouds. Really a drug induced feeling and it made it hard to concentrate and think.Many have talked how SBP is not grounded and can lead to issues. I think that is what you experienced.For many that can be to much and they don't care to continue along the way. It can be scary. Overloads can do that.I will just say that if you had the ability to think of a thing and be that thing. If you had the ability to think of Jesus and be, experience Jesus I don't think you would be talking like you are now.

 

I was able to be SRM simply by reading his texts. I could become the mental form of anyone where there were direct texts of their thoughts/words. It was direct empathy which I now understand on a different level. Jesus didn't say enough to allow that connection. Indeed it was clear he had often not said what has been quoted, or that he said it differently.

 

I knew all about overloading and had experienced it so handling meditation for me was very easy, as was SBP, Sanyama and Self Inquiry. I already had a plenty of stillness and the witness was present. I often advised others on how to deal with symptoms and overloads and wrote a book in which I included the use of these practices as being useful.

 

The Trivium is far more effective. Had I known then what I know now, it is likely I would have gone straight to the Trivium. It is the key that releases the entire contents of accumulated experience and fits it together. There are millions upon millions of insights available that I had no idea I had. It's like cells that merge into new cells and grow at a fantastic rate. Go and try it and then you will see. You can know things that you had no inkling you could. I'm not that bright, so I can only glimpse what someone brighter than I would see.

 

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

I was able to be SRM simply by reading his texts. I could become the mental form of anyone where there were direct texts of their thoughts/words. It was direct empathy which I now understand on a different level. Jesus didn't say enough to allow that connection. Indeed it was clear he had often not said what has been quoted, or that he said it differently. I knew all about overloading and had experienced it so handling meditation for me was very easy, as was SBP, Sanyama and Self Inquiry. I already had a plenty of stillness and the witness was present. I often advised others on how to deal with symptoms and overloads and wrote a book in which I included the use of these practices as being useful. The Trivium is far more effective. Had I known then what I know now, it is likely I would have gone straight to the Trivium. It is the key that releases the entire contents of accumulated experience and fits it together. There are millions upon millions of insights available that I had no idea I had. It's like cells that merge into new cells and grow at a fantastic rate. Go and try it and then you will see. You can know things that you had no inkling you could. I'm not that bright, so I can only glimpse what someone brighter than I would see.

Go and try what exactly? Make up some grammar, overlay reality with the symbols, make up some rules, convince yourself if you follow the rules you will arrive at some form of truth?

 

You don't even know what reality is, how can you establish a grammar? Well you can, but it is a conceptual invention.

 

From the wiki "trivium"

 

 

Grammar is the art of inventing symbols and combining them to express thought; logic is the art of thinking; and rhetoric is the art of communicating thought from one mind to another; the adaptation of language to circumstance.

 

. . .

 

Grammar is concerned with the thing as-it-is-symbolized. Logic is concerned with the thing as-it-is-known. Rhetoric is concerned with the thing as-it-is-communicated.[4]

 

It is an art, not even a science.

 

 

Perhaps you could tell us about some of your millions of insights in a way that proves that they are just not imagination.

[Karl]

Go and try what exactly? Make up some grammar, overlay reality with the symbols, make up some rules, convince yourself if you follow the rules you will arrive at some form of truth?

You don't even know what reality is, how can you establish a grammar? Well you can, but it is a conceptual invention.

From the wiki "trivium"

 

It is an art, not even a science.

Perhaps you could tell us about some of your millions of insights in a way that proves that they are just not imagination.

 

I don't need to. You have just done so. You are attempting to utilise a concept in order to disprove a concept. Find some other way to argue your point if you can.

[Kubba]

There is always something about the face of a Guru. Firts you see something, and investigate it, then after some time you just see her or his face alone in your inner eye and you are just happy

[Karl]

To me it seems for you everything is easy. No suffering etc. I wonder whats wrong with you.

 

Everything is as it is, sometimes easy, sometimes hard. I only have it within my power to do what I can do and not that which I cannot.

[Stosh]

Acceptance is a good antidote for suffering.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I don't need to. You have just done so. You are attempting to utilise a concept in order to disprove a concept. Find some other way to argue your point if you can.

Ok.

 

You said:

How are you defining awakened ?

 

All this stuff about Chakras and bliss mean nothing at all to me. They aren't part of any experience I'm aware of and neither is Kundalini or bliss.

 

You believe that the body is simply a vessel for realisation, but not what you define as realisation ? Neither do I know what you mean by 'realms beyond the human' ? There are plenty of places where humans aren't within the universe for certain. Is that what you mean ?

How could some like you, who claims to have meditated for eight years not have experienced any bliss?

How could you "become" Ramana and not experience any bliss? Ramana is so full of bliss that there is no way an authentic experience of meeting Ramana could not produce the experience of bliss.

And, Jesus emanates so much love and bliss that it is very hard to miss it.

I can't help but think that you just play with your powers of visualization and imagination and fooled yourself into thinking that it was an authentic spiritual experience.

Samadhi is bliss. There are many kinds of samadhi hence many kinds of bliss. Even the jhanas have a pronounced level of bliss that you have to get through.

You have said that you would pick trivium over meditation. I can see why. You have missed an essential ingredient of spiritual development.

The natural state is blissful. Primordial consciousness is blissful.

Ajahn Brahm describes the jhanas as "better than sex". I concur.

 

Perhaps you could make an effort and practice a proper technique in order to attain samadhi just once. It would help you realize something.

[Karl]

Ok.

You said:

 

How could some like you, who claims to have meditated for eight years not have experienced any bliss?

How could you "become" Ramana and not experience any bliss? Ramana is so full of bliss that there is no way an authentic experience of meeting Ramana could not produce the experience of bliss.

And, Jesus emanates so much love and bliss that it is very hard to miss it.

I can't help but think that you just play with your powers of visualization and imagination and fooled yourself into thinking that it was an authentic spiritual experience.

Samadhi is bliss. There are many kinds of samadhi hence many kinds of bliss. Even the jhanas have a pronounced level of bliss that you have to get through.

You have said that you would pick trivium over meditation. I can see why. You have missed an essential ingredient of spiritual development.

The natural state is blissful. Primordial consciousness is blissful.

Ajahn Brahm describes the jhanas as "better than sex". I concur.

Perhaps you could make an effort and practice a proper technique in order to attain samadhi just once. It would help you realize something.

 

I do not 'claim' that's what I did.

Define 'bliss'.

I could never have actually become SRM, but I learned how to model him.

It's hard to know who exactly Jesus was or if he even existed as a single person.

I've never had a spiritual experience that I didn't use my power of imagination to create.

Define Samahadi.

The Trivium is the best meditation there is-infinitely superior if you wish to know reality. If you want a mystic experience then carry on with your practices and you will discover many.

Define natural state/primordial consciousness.

Plateau Orgasm is better than sex. Love is better than both.

I'm already real-I-see.

 

I know you mean well TI :-) so do I.