John Chang

[MooNiNite]

MooNiNite,

 

Normally I keep out of such topics, but it looks like he gave you what you asked for.  You asked for a quote that John Chang said you must be grounded to the earth to absorb yin chi, and he did give you that.  There are numerous things we don't know about the specifics like about the hui yin etc., but you didn't ask about specifics. Being grounded vs not grounded during practice to gather yin chi was the issue at hand.

 

I have to wonder why you and everyone else have so much hostility and resistance to something which is so simple. In my research of mo pai, it seems anyone who quotes what Chang said becomes a heretic here and run out of Dodge pretty quickly.  This whole thing I think is incredibly sad, and I wonder why things have to be like this.  That is all I wanted to say.  

 

Namaste, and God Bless.

 

Actually the discussion was about whether or not the perineum needs to make direct contact with the earth in order to be considered "grounded." 

 

The discussion was not about if one needs to make contact with the earth in order to absorb yin chi. We are talking about whether a specific part of the body needs to make contact. 

[dayzhaze]

Actually the discussion was about whether or not the perineum needs to make direct contact with the earth in order to be considered "grounded." 

 

The discussion was not about if one needs to make contact with the earth in order to absorb yin chi. We are talking about whether a specific part of the body needs to make contact. 

 

I find it strange two people can read the same thing and come to such different views.  Life is funny like that.  In any case I would like to share Metta with you, and the others who seem so hostile towards all of this.  I just don't understand why something so plainly and simply stated can be so controversial.  

 

Namaste, and God Bless.

[MooNiNite]

I find it strange two people can read the same thing and come to such different views.  Life is funny like that.  In any case I would like to share Metta with you, and the others who seem so hostile towards all of this.  I just don't understand why something so plainly and simply stated can be so controversial.  

 

Namaste, and God Bless.

Well I would explain it, but I think there is little interest at this point. 

 

Anyways, i'm just curious, but when you say "God Bless" at the end of your posts, what exactly do you mean?

 

 

Edit: spell check. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by MooNiNite

[dayzhaze]

Well I would explain it, but I think there is little interest at this point. 

 

Anyways, i'm just curious, but when you say "God Bless" at the end of your posts, what exactly do you mean?

 

 

Edit: spell check. 

 

I meant may our creator bless you and your family.   

[MooNiNite]

I meant may our creator bless you and your family.   

 

Have you seen the popular movie The Matrix? There is a scene where Agent Smith discusses the different worlds he created in order to keep the humans active and involved. In one instance he describes how when a world of absolute peace and ease was created the humans started to actually reject the reality before them. While it is just a movie dialog, for many this scene has relevance.

 

Anyways, this begs the question, what type of world are you trying to create? Is hardship and darkness the illusion? Or is the idea of darkness and hardship the illusion?

 

Lao Tzu says, "The world is perfect."  

 

Am I the inadequately blessed being before you? Or is there the idea of an inadequately blessed being before you. And if the second is true, how are your beliefs affecting that being? 

 

There is an old story of two Tibetan hermits looking at a flag swaying in the wind. The first hermit asks the other hermit, "what is moving? The flag or the wind?" The second hermit says, "neither, it is your mind that is moving."

[dayzhaze]

Have you seen the popular movie The Matrix? There is a scene where Agent Smith discusses the different worlds he created in order to keep the humans active and involved. In one instance he describes how when a world of absolute peace and ease was created the humans started to actually reject the reality before them. While it is just a movie dialog, for many this scene has relevance.

 

Anyways, this begs the question, what type of world are you trying to create? Is hardship and darkness the illusion? Or is the idea of darkness and hardship the illusion?

 

Lao Tzu says, "The world is perfect."  

 

Am I the inadequately blessed being before you? Or is there the idea of an inadequately blessed being before you. And if the second is true, how are your beliefs affecting that being? 

 

There is an old story of two Tibetan hermits looking at a flag swaying in the wind. The first hermit asks the other hermit, "what is moving? The flag or the wind?" The second hermit says, "neither, it is your mind that is moving."

 

 

It was just my way of wishing you well, there is no need to over analyze and over think things.

 

Regards.

[MooNiNite]

It was just my way of wishing you well, there is no need to over analyze and over think things.

 

Regards.

 

Thank you for the advice. Starting to believe it is in my nature to do such things. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

[Aeran]

 

from MPG to mooninite:

Quote?

 

 

Or are you putting multiple things that he said together and then claiming that he makes this clear?

 

 

 

 

• Where does yin ch’i come from?” Andreas asked.

   

  “From the earth. The yin comes from the earth. It is some kind of field phenomenon that feeds our lifeforce. It can be blocked by insulators. For example, if you have a carpet made from synthetic materials in your house, the yin ch’i cannot pass through it. That’s not so good for your health. “The yin ch’i enters the body through an acupuncture point that we call hui yin, he added. “It’s located between the urinary tract and the anus.”

   

  Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 104).

   

•  
• He explained to me, “Your yin comes from the earth and you need to be connected to it.” He said I have to sit outside on the ground.

• This was somewhat troubling because where I live it snows about twice a year

  and rains a lot, so while he was telling me this I was trying to figure

  how I was going to be able to do it. He also told me yang comes from

  the air and enters the energy point on the top of your head. And it

  needs to be equally balanced with my yin which enters another energy

  point at the area of your perineum.

   

  McMillan, Jim Seeking the Master of Mo Pai (p. 178).

 

Just going to point out that this is all contextual. Chang is speaking specifically in terms of training within his specific system - he's instructing students (through a translator? and then of course the quotes are being conveyed several years after the fact), not giving a general lecture on the nature of Chi. Just because Mo Pai requires the practitioner to draw what they refer to as Yin Chi through the perineum while in contact with the earth doesn't mean that it can't be brought into the body in other ways - just that that method is the one which was passed down within the Mo Pai lineage for their specific set of practices.

 

In more practical terms, if the perineum was the only way in which Yin Chi could enter the body, then the entirety of humanity barring a few members of a few very specific lineages would be completely deprived of Yin. While in the books Chang takes the time to point out that being insulated from the Earth by synthetic materials in the shoes/floor is unhealthy, he doesn't say that you specifically need to have the huiyin in contact with the earth to maintain your Yin, only that you need to avoid being insulated from the Earth - implying pretty strongly that at least some level of Yin comes through at other points.

 

Generally speaking, I think all this third hand "something said by a master, then translated by a student to another student, then written down from that student's notes years later" stuff is a pretty silly thing to become so dogmatic about. These books aren't the direct and approved teachings of John Chang, Mo Pai Master, they're accounts written by his students (again, years after the fact, and with none of them speaking to him in his native language), combining details from notes and memory (at least some of which conflict between books) with (at least in the case of Danaos, I haven't read McMillan's book) a whole boatload of personal views, theorizing and outright speculation (some of which is depicted as fact to varying degrees).

 

Are they interesting to read as a broad strokes overview of the time someone spent training under a master and the way their worldview changed in that time? Absolutely. But treating them as gospel is absurd.

[MooNiNite]

Generally speaking, I think all this third hand "something said by a master, then translated by a student to another student, then written down from that student's notes years later" stuff is a pretty silly thing to become so dogmatic about. These books aren't the direct and approved teachings of John Chang, Mo Pai Master, they're accounts written by his students (again, years after the fact, and with none of them speaking to him in his native language), combining details from notes and memory (at least some of which conflict between books) with (at least in the case of Danaos, I haven't read McMillan's book) a whole boatload of personal views, theorizing and outright speculation (some of which is depicted as fact to varying degrees).

 

Good points. 

 

Teaching students to actually compact the lower dantien, and then also refer to it as a "yang chi mass" is also a major problem that I would associate to the "third hand information" aspect you are talking about. 

[dayzhaze]

Just going to point out that this is all contextual. Chang is speaking specifically in terms of training within his specific system - he's instructing students (through a translator? and then of course the quotes are being conveyed several years after the fact), not giving a general lecture on the nature of Chi. Just because Mo Pai requires the practitioner to draw what they refer to as Yin Chi through the perineum while in contact with the earth doesn't mean that it can't be brought into the body in other ways - just that that method is the one which was passed down within the Mo Pai lineage for their specific set of practices.

 

In more practical terms, if the perineum was the only way in which Yin Chi could enter the body, then the entirety of humanity barring a few members of a few very specific lineages would be completely deprived of Yin. While in the books Chang takes the time to point out that being insulated from the Earth by synthetic materials in the shoes/floor is unhealthy, he doesn't say that you specifically need to have the huiyin in contact with the earth to maintain your Yin, only that you need to avoid being insulated from the Earth - implying pretty strongly that at least some level of Yin comes through at other points.

 

Generally speaking, I think all this third hand "something said by a master, then translated by a student to another student, then written down from that student's notes years later" stuff is a pretty silly thing to become so dogmatic about. These books aren't the direct and approved teachings of John Chang, Mo Pai Master, they're accounts written by his students (again, years after the fact, and with none of them speaking to him in his native language), combining details from notes and memory (at least some of which conflict between books) with (at least in the case of Danaos, I haven't read McMillan's book) a whole boatload of personal views, theorizing and outright speculation (some of which is depicted as fact to varying degrees).

 

Are they interesting to read as a broad strokes overview of the time someone spent training under a master and the way their worldview changed in that time? Absolutely. But treating them as gospel is absurd.

 

 

Hello Aeran,

 

My gut is telling me I am making a horrible mistake by interacting here, but here goes:

 

You criticize Jim, and Kosta for receiving an oral teaching, and in turn writing down what they were taught.  I mean I'll give you that maybe John Chang got a direct mind transfer of information from his teacher, but maybe he didn't.  Maybe John just paid attention to what his teacher taught him like Jim and Kosta did, and like Jim and Kosta's students did.  It seems reasonable to believe that's how this system works.  Assuming we rule out the direct mind transfer of information, I'm not sure what other option there is here, or why this is a bad thing.  

 

You also state that other systems can absorb yin chi ungrounded,  yes maybe other systems figured out how to do that.  Seeing the evidence for mopai though makes me inclined to listen to their teachings over the others, at least until the others can provide the same level of evidence.  To me this seems reasonable, maybe my thinking is wrong though?

 

You also mention that we would all be yin deprived unless we ground ourselves, I don't think that is true necessarily. I would think normal human amounts of yin energy would be supplied via our interaction with the ground, and with the food and water we drink. Mopai seems to be about gathering abnormally large amounts of yin and yang chi, which explains to me at least why grounding is required to gather that amount of yin.  

 

You mention it being silly to accept what Kosta wrote as true, as it was just stuff he wrote down.  Again in my first point, I touch on that is how the mopai knowledge seems to be transmitted from student to teacher, unless their is some direct mind link method they use that has not been disclosed.    Wasn't Kosta a mechanical engineer that designed commercial airplanes? My memory is a bit rusty but I thought I remembered that from reading his book.   If we can't trust the account of an intelligent professional man, I am not sure who's account we really can trust.   I have actually spoken with Kosta via email, and while he has been reluctant to talk much about mopai,  I get the impression he is highly intelligent, honest, and sincere.   I don't think he lied to us in his books.  I can also see why he has given up on mo pai,  this sort of poisonous vitriol the community sprays at him and anyone who takes up for him, I would wash my hands of it too. 

 

To me at least all of this seems to be a clinical case of sour grapes, an allusion to the actual "Fox and the grapes" fable.  The fox wants the grapes but can't reach them, so he tells himself they would have been sour anyway.  

 

I would sincerely like to extend my Metta to you as well.  

 

Namaste, and may our creator bless you and your family.

Edited September 21, 2015 by dayzhaze

[thelerner]

It'd be wonderful if John Chang would write something himself.  Is there a known number 2 or 3 in Mo Pai organization in Indonesia, who is known?  Or is it a small closed system and that's the way they like it, closed to foreigners, especially Westerners. 

 

I wonder how large it is, and how its taught.   More martial art or more Zendo hall?  Kids and adults coming in a couple times a week, sitting and meditating?  I get the feeling its not a monastery kind of practice.  I wonder how they feel about the few Western books.  If they find them respectful or laughable? 

[Aeran]

Hello Aeran,

 

My gut is telling me I am making a horrible mistake by interacting here, but here goes:

 

Hi,

 

This is a Mo Pai thread now, so your gut is probably correct, but it's too late now

 

 

You criticize Jim, and Kosta for receiving an oral teaching, and in turn writing down what they were taught.

 

No I didn't. I haven't read Jim's book, but I enjoyed Kosta's books (even though I disagree with a lot of his theories, and the way he presents them as more factual or scientific than they actually are). Magus of Java was a great "spiritual travelogue," and I enjoyed the anecdotes and speculation put forth in Nei Kung. I found both books entertaining and inspirational, despite the parts I don't agree with.

 

What I criticized is the people on the internet who use these books as some kind of gospel regarding internal arts (or even worse, attempting to use them as a manual to duplicate the Mo Pai training - and I will criticize Kosta here for encouraging that in his second book, which I felt was an incredibly irresponsible move), just because they're written by men who spent some time training under a man with powerful energetic abilities.

 

I pointed out that the teachings were conveyed to Kosta and Jim via translator, that having spent time training with Chang doesn't make the authors any less prone to personal bias or misinterpretation, and that statements or instructions which are given within the context of training in a specific system shouldn't be generalized to apply to all systems, or to metaphysical models in general.

 

 

You also state that other systems can absorb yin chi ungrounded

 

No I didn't. What I said, again, is that what applies in one system shouldn't be universalized to all systems. Until we can actually study these phenomena in a lab, there's absolutely no way of knowing whether what one system refers to as Yin Chi is even the same force as that which another system gives the same name. Mo Pai divides vital energy into two strict categories - Yin and Yang. There are other systems out there which have anywhere from a single category to dozens of categories. Until we can find a way to better understand how different systems relate to eachother, they should each be treated as separate and unique, with comparisons confined to broad speculation or personal opinion.

 

 

Seeing the evidence for mopai though makes me inclined to listen to their teachings over the others, at least until the others can provide the same level of evidence.  To me this seems reasonable, maybe my thinking is wrong though?

 

The problem is that you don't have access to their teachings, unless you happen to be a personal student of John Chang or one of his own advanced students who have been given permission to transmit the teachings. You have access to the interpretation of their teachings, accompanied by liberal amounts of speculation and personal bias, in the form of books written by men who studied under Chang via a translator for a few years and never advanced very far (relatively speaking) within the system.

 

Even in a relatively simple setting, with a relatively simple subject, such as the transmission of a basic Tai Chi form, I've found that the ability for a practice or teaching to be altered, re-interpreted or misunderstood jumps enormously with each step or barrier between yourself and the original teacher.

 

As an example, my first Tai Chi instructor would demonstrate a form one way, which I'd learn, only to have it "corrected" by one of his senior students when training under them, and then be offered advice which contradicted both when training with another fellow student.

 

If this kind of thing can happen with a simple Tai Chi form, when everyone involved is transmitting the practice directly, how much easier is it for misunderstandings or reinterpretations to slip in when we're talking about books written by students from notes taken during conversations which were being held through a translator? Students (and translators) with their own worldviews and agendas which don't necessarily match up with the original teacher? And much more complicated subject matters - meditation methods and metaphysical cosmologies.

 

 

You also mention that we would all be yin deprived unless we ground ourselves. I don't think that is true necessarily. I would think normal human amounts of yin energy would be supplied via our interaction with the ground, and with the food and water we drink. Mopai seems to be about gathering abnormally large amounts of yin and yang chi, which explains to me at least why grounding is required to gather that amount of yin.

 

Kinda my point - just because deep meditation with the perineum exposed to the ground is the method by which enough of what Mo Pai refers to as Yin Chi is cultivated to carry out their specific techniques, doesn't mean that it's the only way of accessing Yin energy in some form, or that the Yin energy attained in this manner is the only form of Yin energy, or that any technique which doesn't involve the Yin via perineum method cannot produce results.

 

 

You mention it being silly to accept what Kosta wrote as true, as it was just stuff he wrote down.  Again in my first point, I touch on that is how the mopai knowledge seems to be transmitted from student to teacher, unless their is some direct mind link method they use that has not been disclosed.    Wasn't Kosta a mechanical engineer that designed commercial airplanes? My memory is a bit rusty but I thought I remembered that from reading his book.   If we can't trust the account of an intelligent professional man, I am not sure who's account we really can trust.   I have actually spoken with Kosta via email, and while he has been reluctant to talk much about mopai,  I get the impression he is highly intelligent, honest, and sincere.   I don't think he lied to us in his books.  I can also see why he has given up on mo pai,  this sort of poisonous vitriol the community sprays at him and anyone who takes up for him, I would wash my hands of it too. 

 

I don't doubt that Kosta is an intelligent man, and I don't think he intentionally misled people with his books. But being an engineer, spending a few years practicing the method taught by John Chang and conversing with him via translator and doing some reading on Daoism on the side doesn't make him or his books some kind of definitive authority on all things regarding meditation, internal arts or vital energy. And intelligent people are just as prone to bias, to misinterpretation, to misunderstanding, and so on, as anyone

 

My point is that Kosta's books are not, and were not written as, the definitive bible on all things regarding energetic arts. They were written as an account of Kosta's time with Chang, the things he experienced, the changes in worldview he underwent and the ideas he was exposed to, a collection of the theories he developed from combining these ideas with his own reading into the subject and his scientific background, with the agenda of exposing a wider audience to the greater potential of humanity and hopefully leading to a merging of Eastern yogic practices and Western science and a return to a more natural way of life, in sync with the environment. They should be treated as such, not touted as gospel.

 

 

To me at least all of this seems to be a clinical case of sour grapes, an allusion to the actual "Fox and the grapes" fable.  The fox wants the grapes but can't reach them, so he tells himself they would have been sour anyway.  

 

And I could argue this sounds a lot like projection - someone wants something desperately themselves, so they assume that everyone else wants it as badly as they do

 

I find the whole Mo Pai thing interesting because I love learning about different spiritual systems and the way they work, and I enjoy books about people's experiences with spiritual training (it also serves as something of a cautionary tale - Kosta's casting of himself in the role of Prometheus was almost prescient, except Prometheus actually succeeded before being chained to the rock).

 

Furthermore, I dislike the dogmatism which Mo Pai fans constantly press, here and on other forums about spirituality (I find it especially troubling that they have no problem with using the books as hard evidence in one paragraph, then directly contradicting them in the next), and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to encourage people to attempt to train in the method (which is by all descriptions a dangerous one, as these things go) using online guides put together from the books and leaked emails and word of mouth, with no guidance from a teacher, so I argue against that when I can muster the energy to step into the quagmires these debates inevitably turn into.

 

 

I would sincerely like to extend my Metta to you as well.  

 

Namaste, and may our creator bless you and your family.

 

Likewise.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Aeran

[dawei]

A few problems with what your saying but one example should serve:

 

You mention it being silly to accept what Kosta wrote as true, as it was just stuff he wrote down.  

 

What did he actually say was silly?

 

Generally speaking, I think all this third hand "something said by a master, then translated by a student to another student, then written down from that student's notes years later" stuff is a pretty silly thing to become so dogmatic about. 

 

Carpenter moral:  Measure twice, cut once [faithfully]

 

Posting moral:  Read twice, post once [faithfully]

 

BTW: JMO... Kosta's book was an incredible account of a naive student with suspect writing skills.  His personal/emotional experience seems to take precedence over simply observation.  

 

Does anyone even know that his subtitle of "Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal" was not agreed to by JC?   JC said he was not Daoist... So why did the subtitle persist?   There is too much emotional investment in 'the story'.   

 

JMO

[dayzhaze]

Hi,

 

This is a Mo Pai thread now, so your gut is probably correct, but it's too late now

 

 

 

No I didn't. I haven't read Jim's book, but I enjoyed Kosta's books (even though I disagree with a lot of his theories, and the way he presents them as more factual or scientific than they actually are). Magus of Java was a great "spiritual travelogue," and I enjoyed the anecdotes and speculation put forth in Nei Kung. I found both books entertaining and inspirational, despite the parts I don't agree with.

 

What I criticized is the people on the internet who use these books as some kind of gospel regarding internal arts (or even worse, attempting to use them as a manual to duplicate the Mo Pai training - and I will criticize Kosta here for encouraging that in his second book, which I felt was an incredibly irresponsible move), just because they're written by men who spent some time training under a man with powerful energetic abilities.

 

I pointed out that the teachings were conveyed to Kosta and Jim via translator, that having spent time training with Chang doesn't make the authors any less prone to personal bias or misinterpretation, and that statements or instructions which are given within the context of training in a specific system shouldn't be generalized to apply to all systems, or to metaphysical models in general.

 

 

 

No I didn't. What I said, again, is that what applies in one system shouldn't be universalized to all systems. Until we can actually study these phenomena in a lab, there's absolutely no way of knowing whether what one system refers to as Yin Chi is even the same force as that which another system gives the same name. Mo Pai divides vital energy into two strict categories - Yin and Yang. There are other systems out there which have anywhere from a single category to dozens of categories. Until we can find a way to better understand how different systems relate to eachother, they should each be treated as separate and unique, with comparisons confined to broad speculation or personal opinion.

 

 

 

The problem is that you don't have access to their teachings, unless you happen to be a personal student of John Chang or one of his own advanced students who have been given permission to transmit the teachings. You have access to the interpretation of their teachings, accompanied by liberal amounts of speculation and personal bias, in the form of books written by men who studied under Chang via a translator for a few years and never advanced very far (relatively speaking) within the system.

 

Even in a relatively simple setting, with a relatively simple subject, such as the transmission of a basic Tai Chi form, I've found that the ability for a practice or teaching to be altered, re-interpreted or misunderstood jumps enormously with each step or barrier between yourself and the original teacher.

 

As an example, my first Tai Chi instructor would demonstrate a form one way, which I'd learn, only to have it "corrected" by one of his senior students when training under them, and then be offered advice which contradicted both when training with another fellow student.

 

If this kind of thing can happen with a simple Tai Chi form, when everyone involved is transmitting the practice directly, how much easier is it for misunderstandings or reinterpretations to slip in when we're talking about books written by students from notes taken during conversations which were being held through a translator? Students (and translators) with their own worldviews and agendas which don't necessarily match up with the original teacher? And much more complicated subject matters - meditation methods and metaphysical cosmologies.

 

 

 

Kinda my point - just because deep meditation with the perineum exposed to the ground is the method by which enough of what Mo Pai refers to as Yin Chi is cultivated to carry out their specific techniques, doesn't mean that it's the only way of accessing Yin energy in some form, or that the Yin energy attained in this manner is the only form of Yin energy, or that any technique which doesn't involve the Yin via perineum method cannot produce results.

 

 

 

I don't doubt that Kosta is an intelligent man, and I don't think he intentionally misled people with his books. But being an engineer, spending a few years practicing the method taught by John Chang and conversing with him via translator and doing some reading on Daoism on the side doesn't make him or his books some kind of definitive authority on all things regarding meditation, internal arts or vital energy. And intelligent people are just as prone to bias, to misinterpretation, to misunderstanding, and so on, as anyone

 

My point is that Kosta's books are not, and were not written as, the definitive bible on all things regarding energetic arts. They were written as an account of Kosta's time with Chang, the things he experienced, the changes in worldview he underwent and the ideas he was exposed to, a collection of the theories he developed from combining these ideas with his own reading into the subject and his scientific background, with the agenda of exposing a wider audience to the greater potential of humanity and hopefully leading to a merging of Eastern yogic practices and Western science and a return to a more natural way of life, in sync with the environment. They should be treated as such, not touted as gospel.

 

 

 

And I could argue this sounds a lot like projection - someone wants something desperately themselves, so they assume that everyone else wants it as badly as they do

 

I find the whole Mo Pai thing interesting because I love learning about different spiritual systems and the way they work, and I enjoy books about people's experiences with spiritual training (it also serves as something of a cautionary tale - Kosta's casting of himself in the role of Prometheus was almost prescient, except Prometheus actually succeeded before being chained to the rock).

 

Furthermore, I dislike the dogmatism which Mo Pai fans constantly press, here and on other forums about spirituality (I find it especially troubling that they have no problem with using the books as hard evidence in one paragraph, then directly contradicting them in the next), and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to encourage people to attempt to train in the method (which is by all descriptions a dangerous one, as these things go) using online guides put together from the books and leaked emails and word of mouth, with no guidance from a teacher, so I argue against that when I can muster the energy to step into the quagmires these debates inevitably turn into.

 

 

 

Likewise.

 

 

 

I can empathize with the people I've met from the other forum.  I can see why interacting with you anti-mopai people is so incredibly frustrating.

 

"he's instructing students (through a translator? and then of course the quotes are being conveyed several years after the fact), not giving a general lecture on the nature of Chi."

 

"I think all this third hand "something said by a master, then translated by a student to another student, then written down from that student's notes years later" stuff is a pretty silly thing to become so dogmatic about. These books aren't the direct and approved teachings of John Chang, Mo Pai Master, they're accounts written by his students (again, years after the fact, and with none of them speaking to him in his native language), combining details from notes and memory (at least some of which conflict between books) with (at least in the case of Danaos, I haven't read McMillan's book) a whole boatload of personal views, theorizing and outright speculation (some of which is depicted as fact to varying degrees)."

 

You do indeed criticize Jim and Kosta here for receiving and oral teaching and writing it down, that's appears to be how the system works, and how John Chang himself got instruction in mopai.  You claim otherwise but you forget that I am literate and I can read your words quite plainly.  

 

"just because they're written by men who spent some time training under a man with powerful energetic abilities."

 

They weren't just some men who visited Chang for a weekend, they were students.  Jim supposedly completed 2b, and Kosta was given 2b instruction.  That is correct at least to the best of my understanding.  John himself tested them as completing each level.

 

 

"having spent time training with Chang doesn't make the authors any less prone to personal bias or misinterpretation,"

 

This same criticism could equally be applied to Chang, his teacher, his teacher's teacher, and so forth.   If they were misinterpreting instruction it would have been impossible to complete and be tested to their level.  This same criticism could be used against Chang himself, in regards to the teaching he received from his teacher.

 

 

"statements or instructions which are given within the context of training in a specific system shouldn't be generalized to apply to all systems, or to metaphysical models in general."

 

I believe you are right here,  as I said earlier maybe other schools figured out how to get yin chi and not be grounded.  However I haven't seen any evidence at all for systems that claim this, and I have for mopai.  It seems reasonable to me to reevaluate this if and when some other system with conflicting metaphysics can offer evidence like mopai has.

 

The problem is that you don't have access to their teachings

 

Please speak for yourself, and not for me.

 

You have access to the interpretation of their teachings, accompanied by liberal amounts of speculation and personal bias, in the form of books written by men who studied under Chang via a translator for a few years and never advanced very far (relatively speaking) within the system.

 

That's all Chang had too, remember his Master was Chinese and he was Indonesian. I assume his master learned Indonesian just as Chang learned English.  Jim and Kosta had access to Chang's "Interpretation" of his teachers teachings. Again this criticism makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as unless there is some direct mind transfer ability going on between Chang's master and himself, that is how this system passes it's knowledge down from generation to generation.

 

If this kind of thing can happen with a simple Tai Chi form, when everyone involved is transmitting the practice directly, how much easier is it for misunderstandings or reinterpretations to slip in when we're talking about books written by students from notes taken during conversations which were being held through a translator? Students (and translators) with their own worldviews and agendas which don't necessarily match up with the original teacher? And much more complicated subject matters - meditation methods and metaphysical cosmologies.

 

Jim and Kosta were tested to their level and passed, they couldn't have completed the teachings if they didn't understand what they were taught.  The argument you are making doesn't hold water.

 

Kinda my point - just because deep meditation with the perineum exposed to the ground is the method by which enough of what Mo Pai refers to as Yin Chi is cultivated to carry out their specific techniques, doesn't mean that it's the only way of accessing Yin energy in some form, or that the Yin energy attained in this manner is the only form of Yin energy, or that any technique which doesn't involve the Yin via perineum method cannot produce results.

 

As I stated previously, maybe other systems figured out something mopai didn't.  Until I see evidence for those systems though I'll side with mopai any day.   If I want yin energy in excess of what normal food, water, and normal life can provide I will remain grounded when I meditate. This seems reasonable to me at least.

 

 

But being an engineer, spending a few years practicing the method taught by John Chang and conversing with him via translator and doing some reading on Daoism on the side doesn't make him or his books some kind of definitive authority on all things regarding meditation, internal arts or vital energy. And intelligent people are just as prone to bias, to misinterpretation, to misunderstanding, and so on, as anyone.

 

Again this criticism would apply to Chang as much as it would Kosta. I can think of no one more qualified than Kosta to give an account of what he saw and experienced, and what Chang taught him.   He had to understand the material well enough to practice correctly and pass his exams.  At the end of the day he did the work, he was tested and he passed.

 

guides put together from the books and leaked emails and word of mouth, with no guidance from a teacher,

 

This is not the case, my teacher studied with Jim McMillan for nearly 8 years before Jim died.  Jim's teachings are preserved as well, and I can read them for myself.   Again this is how the system works, from teacher to student, each generation.

 

I have to wonder what excuses and arguments you would develop if John Chang himself posted a youtube series confirming what Jim and Kosta said he taught.  I don't believe there would ever be an end to it, even if you met him in person and he told you so himself.

 

Namaste and may our creator bless you.

Edited September 22, 2015 by dayzhaze

[dayzhaze]

A few problems with what your saying but one example should serve:

 

 

What did he actually say was silly?

 

 

Carpenter moral:  Measure twice, cut once [faithfully]

 

Posting moral:  Read twice, post once [faithfully]

 

BTW: JMO... Kosta's book was an incredible account of a naive student with suspect writing skills.  His personal/emotional experience seems to take precedence over simply observation.  

 

Does anyone even know that his subtitle of "Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal" was not agreed to by JC?   JC said he was not Daoist... So why did the subtitle persist?   There is too much emotional investment in 'the story'.   

 

JMO

 

Dawei,

 

I find your words condescending, and disrespectful, both of myself and teachers like Kosta. I can read what was written here, and I need no help comprehending it. I also disagree with your opinion of Kosta, being some naive bumpkin.  Had the title read "Teachings of an Authentic "Christian who studies a Mohist sect of Neigong" Immortal I don't think people would have understood the meaning.  One thing I have noticed is how strong the anti-mopai vitriol is here, you can feel it in the air here, and almost taste it. I can see why they felt it necessary to create the neigong forum. To you I extend my strongest Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, namaste.

Edited September 22, 2015 by dayzhaze

[soaring crane]

 One thing I have noticed is how strong the anti-mopai vitriol is here, you can feel it in the air here, almost touch it, 

 

well, there are some among us who consider that a benefit.

[dayzhaze]

well, there are some among us who consider that a benefit.

 

I would agree with you, I don't think there is a single member of the moderation team or staff who would disagree. Here in the US,  I have to wonder what would happen if we filled every single government position with neoconservatives who hated gay people.   I suspect that policy would change rather quickly and reflect the policy of the Russian government on Gays and maybe even worse.   From what I can see being a supporter of mopai here on this forum, is a lot like trying to be openly gay in Russia.  It is like being a second class citizen where every decision and judgement is biased against you.  That is just my observation.  I find it a shame that serious seekers of mopai should have to create a separate forum just to discuss it without this sort treatment. To you I also extend my Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, namaste.

Edited September 22, 2015 by dayzhaze

[soaring crane]

oh boy... I understand your POV, but I think you got the protaganists with the antagonists reversed. There's a loooong history of moderators bending over backwards here to accomodate the MP crew.

[dayzhaze]

oh boy... I understand your POV, but I think you got the protaganists with the antagonists reversed. There's a loooong history of moderators bending over backwards here to accomodate the MP crew.

 

I don't think so at all. Mopaiguy points out he was suspended for a comment that I read myself and can see no possible way it broke any rule.  In my talks with him, he claims that was his first suspension on this forum, and he told a staff member here via email that he would create his own forum and say whatever he wanted on his forum, but never again would he say anything even slightly negative on your forum.  So as a result your administration upgraded his suspension which shouldn't have happened in the first place to a ban. Seeing this there is no way you will ever convince me your staff has ever "bent over backwards" to accommodate them.  While you've been slightly more tolerant with the other pro-mopai members, it seems to me they are still beaten down like red-headed stepchildren. You expect them to be grateful for your mercy and leniency, like it's some grand honor they are allowed to even be here.  I can go back, read these old threads myself to see the bias for myself, and so can anyone else. To you I extend my Metta.

 

Namaste, and may our creator bless you and your family.

Edited September 22, 2015 by dayzhaze

[Jetsun]

Hi Mopaiguy.

 

All the mods have changed since you were last here so your paranoid rant holds no ground I'm afraid.

[dayzhaze]

Hi Mopaiguy.

 

All the mods have changed since you were last here so your paranoid rant holds no ground I'm afraid.

 

I was told to expect this response if I took up for them. Supposedly according to mopaiguy you suspected Ken of being him as well, as well as several others who have taken up for him. I have no doubt I will share their fate.  I came here to stand up for them, and I did so knowing where it would lead. Your princess however is in another castle. Also changing of the guard from one anti-mopai group of moderators and staff to another anti-mopai group, means things still stay the same. My Metta is with you as well.

 

Namaste, and may our creator bless you and your family.

Edited September 22, 2015 by dayzhaze

[SonOfTheGods]

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39346-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy/#entry647877

Misconceptions of Qigong, Neidan, Alchemy

Why a westerner won't get it...

[MooNiNite]

................this thread is so derailed. 

[thelerner]

I was told to expect this response if I took up for them. Supposedly according to mopaiguy you suspected Ken of being him as well, as well as several others who have taken up for him. I have no doubt I will share their fate.  I came here to stand up for them, and I did so knowing where it would lead. Your princess however is in another castle. Also changing of the guard from one anti-mopai group of moderators and staff to another anti-mopai group, means things still stay the same. My Metta is with you as well.

 

Namaste, and may our creator bless you and your family.

I can't imagine this site ever descending to the depths, the swearing, vulgarity,  bitterness, the crazed vendetta that MPG's went to.  We're simply (me not included) too good for that.