John Chang

[MooNiNite]

Who is insulting whom?  This entire thing started with Jetsun lying and saying John Chang joined the forum as a moderator just to make sure Mopaiguy got banned.  I mean seriously!?  As far as I can see the Space Panda guys have minded their own business on their own forum until now. 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

 

You really haven't seen the forum MoPaiDebate? Or any of the old threads on this forum? It's full of insults

[dayzhaze]

You really haven't seen the forum MoPaiDebate? Or any of the old threads on this forum? It's full of insults

 

I think after a few years of this mudslinging garbage,  I'd be tossing some insults also Mr. MooNiNite.  Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

Edited September 23, 2015 by dayzhaze

[MooNiNite]

I think after a few years of this mudslinging garbage,  I'd be tossing some insults also Mr. MooNiNite.  Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

 

Awesome, well thanks for your contributions?

[MooNiNite]

What is ridiculous is that your group makes claims that arn't rational and then insults others with the justification that it is OK because you guys are following strict rationality. 

 

Here is an example I quickly found on MoPaiDebate (barely had to search).

 

 

From MoPaiGuy to JoeBlast:

 

"No you fucking don't. None of you fucking idiots have ever accomplished anything worth writing home about. 

Just a bunch of fucking newage fruitcakes that shits all over anything real. 

You people are just shit flinging apes."

 

 

So yeah, keep sharing metta with us and supporting people who say this kinda stuff to people. But dont forget to make irrational statements and then claim they are completely rational. Just please dont think for a second that you're not being hypocritical. 

[dayzhaze]

What is ridiculous is that your group makes claims that arn't rational and then insults others with the justification that it is OK because you guys are following strict rationality. 

 

Here is an example I quickly found on MoPaiDebate (barely had to search).

 

 

From MoPaiGuy to JoeBlast:

 

"No you fucking don't. None of you fucking idiots have ever accomplished anything worth writing home about. 

 

Just a bunch of fucking newage fruitcakes that shits all over anything real. 

 

You people are just shit flinging apes."

 

 

So yeah, keep sharing metta with us and supporting people who say this kinda stuff to people. But dont forget to make irrational statements and then claim they are completely rational. Just please dont think for a second that you're not being hypocritical. 

 

All that happens is they quote Chang directly and your guys lose your minds, it's like some shark feeding frenzy of trolling. It would be hard to deal with your groups constant barrage of trolling day in and day out for years,  I try my best to be kind and project metta but this, this is something else man.

 

 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

Edited September 23, 2015 by dayzhaze

[MooNiNite]

All that happens is they quote Chang directly and your guys lose your minds, it's like some shark feeding frenzy of trolling. It would be hard to deal with your groups constant barrage of trolling day in and day out for years,  I try my best to be kind and project metta but this, this is something else man.

 

 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

 

Well its not worth my time to explain to you how the "supportive quotes" are actually not conclusive. 

[dayzhaze]

Well its not worth my time to explain to you how the "supportive quotes" are actually not conclusive. 

 

I am not sure what part is not conclusive about having to sit on the ground to absorb yin chi, and the perineum being the entry point of yin chi.  That's what it says plain and simple.  Why you and your group have to lose your collective minds over something so absolutely clear and simple is incomprehensible.

 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

[MooNiNite]

John Chang makes it very clear that you can only absorb yin chi from earth with a grounded perineum.

 

 

I am not sure what part is not conclusive about having to sit on the ground to absorb yin chi, and the perineum being the entry point of yin chi.  That's what it says plain and simple.  Why you and your group have to lose your collective minds over something so absolutely clear and simple is incomprehensible.

[dayzhaze]

John says you have to be grounded to the earth, to absorb yin chi during meditation. John says the perineum IS the yin entry point. We know this.  We don't know if yin can flow through the legs and butt to the perineum, or if a pile of silt/sand/dirt is needed to touch it.   I would rather just go ahead and make sure it's grounded.  According to mopaiguy Jim taught it it had to be directly grounded, so take that for what you will.  I suspect that if Chang posted videos that settled this argument you would still find an excuse to argue about, even if you met him in person and he told you face to face you would find an excuse. 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

[MooNiNite]

John says you have to be grounded to the earth, to absorb yin chi during meditation. John says the perineum IS the yin entry point. We know this.  We don't know if yin can flow through the legs and butt to the perineum, or if a pile of silt/sand/dirt is needed to touch it.   I would rather just go ahead and make sure it's grounded.  According to mopaiguy Jim taught it it had to be directly grounded, so take that for what you will.  I suspect that if Chang posted videos that settled this argument you would still find an excuse to argue about, even if you met him in person and he told you face to face you would find an excuse. 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

 

Look man, I have the official Level 1 teachings and have personally gone through the training with Jim. He said I could sit in Indian Style on a metal plate if I used a hand mudra, he said nothing about making absolutely sure that the perineum touched the ground when in Indian style. You are supporting people who claim it is absolutely necessary with no coherent argument to say it is an "absolute fact."

 

I suspect Chang would explain that your whole body is conductive and is connected to your perineum already. If he however did say that it was absolutely necessary for the perineum to be grounded in the level 1 practice and that students should make sure to attach a wire to their perineum if they are practicing in Indian style on the metal plate, then sure I would believe him. 

[gendao]

John says you have to be grounded to the earth, to absorb yin chi during meditation. John says the perineum IS the yin entry point. We know this.  We don't know if yin can flow through the legs and butt to the perineum, or if a pile of silt/sand/dirt is needed to touch it.   I would rather just go ahead and make sure it's grounded.  According to mopaiguy Jim taught it it had to be directly grounded, so take that for what you will.

I do wonder why you couldn't absorb Yin qi from yongquan while standing, or any other points or areas?

 

Also, if Yin qi is "magnetic" (vs "electric" Yang qi), then why treat it like an electrical current or ions via grounding?  Magnetism is a field effect dependent on distance and material, not unbroken contact.  As in, a connecting copper wire is not going to "conduct" the magnetism any.

 

Absorbing Yin through your Huiyin makes sense to me.  But not sure about why that's the best or "only" point...or if "magnetic" Yin qi can actually be conducted like electricity?  If so, I would be curious as to the actual reasoning?

[dayzhaze]

I do wonder why you couldn't absorb Yin qi from yongquan while standing, or any other points or areas?

 

Also, if Yin qi is "magnetic" (vs "electric" Yang qi), then why treat it like an electrical current or ions via grounding?  Magnetism is a field effect dependent on distance and material, not unbroken contact.  As in, a connecting copper wire is not going to "conduct" the magnetism any.

 

Absorbing Yin through your Huiyin makes sense to me.  But not sure about why that's the best or "only" point...or if "magnetic" Yin qi can actually be conducted like electricity?  If so, I would be curious as to the actual reasoning?

 

Perhaps you can, I don't know.  I just know what Chang is quoted as saying.  I would rather follow his instruction, than gamble on some unknown teacher or system.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

[dayzhaze]

Look man, I have the official Level 1 teachings and have personally gone through the training with Jim. He said I could sit in Indian Style on a metal plate if I used a hand mudra, he said nothing about making absolutely sure that the perineum touched the ground when in Indian style. You are supporting people who claim it is absolutely necessary with no coherent argument to say it is an "absolute fact."

 

I suspect Chang would explain that your whole body is conductive and is connected to your perineum already. If he however did say that it was absolutely necessary for the perineum to be grounded in the level 1 practice and that students should make sure to attach a wire to their perineum if they are practicing in Indian style on the metal plate, then sure I would believe him. 

 

To be quite honest everything you say is suspect, I trust what mopaiguy has told me over you.  According to mopaiguy tells me the plate advice began sometime after he was accepted as a student.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family, Namaste.

[MooNiNite]

To be quite honest everything you say is suspect, I trust what mopaiguy has told me over you.  According to mopaiguy tells me the plate advice began sometime after he was accepted as a student.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family, Namaste.

 

I would say the same about you, but I dont really have much interest in what you believe about me.

 

BUT

 

You dont need to take it from me.

 

The plate advice is in Jim McMillan's official book, you can read it yourself. ALSO the official level 1 teachings are available, you can read those yourself. 

Edited September 23, 2015 by MooNiNite

[dayzhaze]

I would say the same about you, but I dont really have much interest in what you believe about me.

 

BUT

 

You dont need to take it from me.

 

The plate advice is in Jim McMillan's official book, you can read it yourself. ALSO the official level 1 teachings are available, you can read those yourself. 

 

Page number please.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family, Namaste.

[MooNiNite]

Grounding is nothing new.

 

[MooNiNite]

Page number please.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family, Namaste.

 

Read Jim's book, you will find it. 

[dayzhaze]

Read Jim's book, you will find it. 

 

I did a search for metal with 5 results, plate with 2 results, and metal plate with zero results.  None of the searches had information on metal plates. 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family, Namaste.

[dayzhaze]

Grounding is nothing new.

 

 

I agree, but with all the aversion and hostility to it here,  you wouldn't know that.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family, Namaste.

Edited September 23, 2015 by dayzhaze

[Aeran]

I can empathize with the people I've met from the other forum.  I can see why interacting with you anti-mopai people is so incredibly frustrating.

 

"he's instructing students (through a translator? and then of course the quotes are being conveyed several years after the fact), not giving a general lecture on the nature of Chi."

 

"I think all this third hand "something said by a master, then translated by a student to another student, then written down from that student's notes years later" stuff is a pretty silly thing to become so dogmatic about. These books aren't the direct and approved teachings of John Chang, Mo Pai Master, they're accounts written by his students (again, years after the fact, and with none of them speaking to him in his native language), combining details from notes and memory (at least some of which conflict between books) with (at least in the case of Danaos, I haven't read McMillan's book) a whole boatload of personal views, theorizing and outright speculation (some of which is depicted as fact to varying degrees)."

 

You do indeed criticize Jim and Kosta here for receiving and oral teaching and writing it down, that's appears to be how the system works, and how John Chang himself got instruction in mopai.  You claim otherwise but you forget that I am literate and I can read your words quite plainly.  

 

"just because they're written by men who spent some time training under a man with powerful energetic abilities."

 

They weren't just some men who visited Chang for a weekend, they were students.  Jim supposedly completed 2b, and Kosta was given 2b instruction.  That is correct at least to the best of my understanding.  John himself tested them as completing each level.

 

 

"having spent time training with Chang doesn't make the authors any less prone to personal bias or misinterpretation,"

 

This same criticism could equally be applied to Chang, his teacher, his teacher's teacher, and so forth.   If they were misinterpreting instruction it would have been impossible to complete and be tested to their level.  This same criticism could be used against Chang himself, in regards to the teaching he received from his teacher.

 

 

"statements or instructions which are given within the context of training in a specific system shouldn't be generalized to apply to all systems, or to metaphysical models in general."

 

I believe you are right here,  as I said earlier maybe other schools figured out how to get yin chi and not be grounded.  However I haven't seen any evidence at all for systems that claim this, and I have for mopai.  It seems reasonable to me to reevaluate this if and when some other system with conflicting metaphysics can offer evidence like mopai has.

 

The problem is that you don't have access to their teachings

 

Please speak for yourself, and not for me.

 

You have access to the interpretation of their teachings, accompanied by liberal amounts of speculation and personal bias, in the form of books written by men who studied under Chang via a translator for a few years and never advanced very far (relatively speaking) within the system.

 

That's all Chang had too, remember his Master was Chinese and he was Indonesian. I assume his master learned Indonesian just as Chang learned English.  Jim and Kosta had access to Chang's "Interpretation" of his teachers teachings. Again this criticism makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as unless there is some direct mind transfer ability going on between Chang's master and himself, that is how this system passes it's knowledge down from generation to generation.

 

If this kind of thing can happen with a simple Tai Chi form, when everyone involved is transmitting the practice directly, how much easier is it for misunderstandings or reinterpretations to slip in when we're talking about books written by students from notes taken during conversations which were being held through a translator? Students (and translators) with their own worldviews and agendas which don't necessarily match up with the original teacher? And much more complicated subject matters - meditation methods and metaphysical cosmologies.

 

Jim and Kosta were tested to their level and passed, they couldn't have completed the teachings if they didn't understand what they were taught.  The argument you are making doesn't hold water.

 

Kinda my point - just because deep meditation with the perineum exposed to the ground is the method by which enough of what Mo Pai refers to as Yin Chi is cultivated to carry out their specific techniques, doesn't mean that it's the only way of accessing Yin energy in some form, or that the Yin energy attained in this manner is the only form of Yin energy, or that any technique which doesn't involve the Yin via perineum method cannot produce results.

 

As I stated previously, maybe other systems figured out something mopai didn't.  Until I see evidence for those systems though I'll side with mopai any day.   If I want yin energy in excess of what normal food, water, and normal life can provide I will remain grounded when I meditate. This seems reasonable to me at least.

 

 

But being an engineer, spending a few years practicing the method taught by John Chang and conversing with him via translator and doing some reading on Daoism on the side doesn't make him or his books some kind of definitive authority on all things regarding meditation, internal arts or vital energy. And intelligent people are just as prone to bias, to misinterpretation, to misunderstanding, and so on, as anyone.

 

Again this criticism would apply to Chang as much as it would Kosta. I can think of no one more qualified than Kosta to give an account of what he saw and experienced, and what Chang taught him.   He had to understand the material well enough to practice correctly and pass his exams.  At the end of the day he did the work, he was tested and he passed.

 

guides put together from the books and leaked emails and word of mouth, with no guidance from a teacher,

 

This is not the case, my teacher studied with Jim McMillan for nearly 8 years before Jim died.  Jim's teachings are preserved as well, and I can read them for myself.   Again this is how the system works, from teacher to student, each generation.

 

I have to wonder what excuses and arguments you would develop if John Chang himself posted a youtube series confirming what Jim and Kosta said he taught.  I don't believe there would ever be an end to it, even if you met him in person and he told you so himself.

 

Namaste and may our creator bless you.

 

I'm not going to drag this out into a massive back & forth, since I don't see anything productive coming from that, but I would like to say that I am not "anti-Mo Pai." Although it isn't a school I would personally choose to train in, I don't have any problem with those who have chosen to seek out legitimate instruction within the lineage and I wish them success in their training.

 

  My problem is with those who claim that the Mo Pai method is the only functional one, or who push people to attempt the training without legitimate, personal and direct instruction from the lineage (this includes the cases of people who have been given instructions from students of Kosta and McMillan, both of whom were disavowed by the lineage, and as far as I know never had permission to train people in Mo Pai to begin with). Such individuals would be much better off seeking out personal tutelage from another living and complete lineage.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Aeran

[dayzhaze]

I'm not going to drag this out into a massive back & forth, since I don't see anything productive coming from that, but I would like to say that I am not "anti-Mo Pai." Although it isn't a school I would personally choose to train in, I don't have any problem with those who have chosen to seek out legitimate instruction within the lineage and I wish them success in their training.

 

  My problem is with those who claim that the Mo Pai method is the only functional one, or who push people to attempt the training without legitimate, personal and direct instruction from the lineage (this includes the cases of people who have been given instructions from students of Kosta and McMillan, both of whom were disavowed by the lineage, and as far as I know never had permission to train people in Mo Pai to begin with). Such individuals would be much better off seeking out personal tutelage from another living and complete lineage.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming that that I am aware of.  That sounds like a strawman to me.  What they are saying is they are eager to find other systems which can provide evidence like mo pai.  They are not claiming mo pai is the only way, just the only one with good evidence at the moment.  I agree with that view.  It seems unreasonable to me to expect people to pursue systems which most likely do nothing more than placebo, when something that has been proven is available. 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

[Chang]

I don't think anyone is claiming that that I am aware of. That sounds like a strawman to me. What they are saying is they are eager to find other systems which can provide evidence like mo pai. They are not claiming mo pai is the only way, just the only one with good evidence at the moment. I agree with that view. It seems unreasonable to me to expect people to pursue systems which most likely do nothing more than placebo, when something that has been proven is available.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

 

Talk of mo pai and evidence is laughable. There is no concrete evidence that this system works and there is scant evidence that there is even a system.

 

All we appear to have is a bunch of More Pie Wallah's whose main practice is to insult one another and anyone else who dares to disagree with their nonsense. It would be tragic were it not so laughable.

[dayzhaze]

Talk of mo pai and evidence is laughable. There is no concrete evidence that this system works and there is scant evidence that there is even a system.

 

All we appear to have is a bunch of More Pie Wallah's whose main practice is to insult one another and anyone else who dares to disagree with their nonsense. It would be tragic were it not so laughable.

 

"There are two ways to be fooled: one is to believe what isn’t true, the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Soren Kierkegaard

 

You can laugh at the evidence.  You can stick your head in the sand and pretend there is no evidence.    Claiming there is no evidence the sky is blue, or that 2+2=4 is certainly your prerogative.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2l6zFOG5f0

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family, Namaste.

Edited September 26, 2015 by dayzhaze

[Aeran]

I don't think anyone is claiming that that I am aware of.  That sounds like a strawman to me.

 

Plenty of people have claimed it over the course of these Mo Pai debates.

 

 

'What they are saying is they are eager to find other systems which can provide evidence like mo pai.

 

 

Then why not spend less time arguing on the internet or trying to piece together a incomplete system from third hand sources, and more time traveling, meeting teachers, investigating other systems, until you find one which you are satisfied is legitimate? Why not seek out your own evidence, find your own path and gain legitimate instruction? Even if the alleged Mo Pai training offered online works, and you manage to complete it safely, what happens when you finish level 2 or 3 or whatever it is and have nowhere further to go?

 

  They are not claiming mo pai is the only way, just the only one with good evidence at the moment.  I agree with that view.

 

Just going to point out that that opinion directly contradicts the opinion of the writer of the books which you seem to hold in such high esteem. Danaos compares Mo Pai to several other systems in both Magus of Java and Nei Kung, and openly expresses his belief that these other systems are valid in his books and in interviews he has given.

 

 

[dayzhaze]

Plenty of people have claimed it over the course of these Mo Pai debates.

 

 

 

 

Then why not spend less time arguing on the internet or trying to piece together a incomplete system from third hand sources, and more time traveling, meeting teachers, investigating other systems, until you find one which you are satisfied is legitimate? Why not seek out your own evidence, find your own path and gain legitimate instruction? Even if the alleged Mo Pai training offered online works, and you manage to complete it safely, what happens when you finish level 2 or 3 or whatever it is and have nowhere further to go?

 

 

Just going to point out that that opinion directly contradicts the opinion of the writer of the books which you seem to hold in such high esteem. Danaos compares Mo Pai to several other systems in both Magus of Java and Nei Kung, and openly expresses his belief that these other systems are valid in his books and in interviews he has given.

 

"Plenty of people have claimed it over the course of these Mo Pai debates."

 

That's certainly not the perspective I get from speaking with them.  They are open to any system so long as there is evidence on par with mopai provided. That seems reasonable to me. 

 

"traveling, meeting teachers, investigating other systems"

 

I'm satisfied with what I have. Almost 100 percent of all systems are placebo gong, and I am not rich enough to investigate them all.  I think the best I can do personally is invest my time in a school which has proven itself, and complete all that I can before wasting my time searching for more.

 

"Why not seek out your own evidence, find your own path and gain legitimate instruction?"

 

I have both.

 

"or whatever it is and have nowhere further to go?"

 

Our creator will either create a path for me to the next step, or the creator will not.  Whatever happens I am ok with that.  I won't waste my time on false teachers and placebo gong though.

 

"systems are valid in his books and in interviews he has given."

 

The anti-mopai faction hates anyone who says there is no proof like mo pai for other systems.  That is seen as arrogant, and enraging.   So if Kosta said something like that,  don't you think they would string him up too?  I've spoken with Kosta and he is very careful with his wording in emails, because he is always being watched and anything he says can be used against him later.  In his interviews I get the impression he is having to pretend very hard to blend in with and humor the people asking questions so as not to offend them.  He is a smart man, and walks on eggshells to avoid as much criticism as he can, and I can't blame him.  I mean look where being blunt and honest got the space panda group.  As to other valid systems,  I begged and pleaded with Kosta for some time for recommendations for schools or paths like mopai and was given nothing other than go find a Buddhist/Taoist temple and ask them sort of response.   So I think Kosta humors the general public about his own personal beliefs to avoid the type of vitriol that gets sprayed in the eyes of the space pandas.  I can't say it is a bad strategy. 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

Edited September 24, 2015 by dayzhaze