John Chang

[Chang]

I am more than a little bemused by your posts. You continue to speak of evidence which depicts Mo Pai as a proven system and have posted a video of John Chang lighting a bulb.

 

This proves nothing. You have no evidence that Mo Pai will provide any results and even if it does you will not realise those results because you will never have access to that system. You have chosen a path upon which you will never set foot.

 

I repeat "This would be tragic were it not laughable."

 

So please feel free to continue along your road to nowhere but do not criticise others for not holding your hand and cheering you on your way.

[soaring crane]

I am more than a little bemused by your posts. You continue to speak of evidence which depicts Mo Pai as a proven system and have posted a video of John Chang lighting a bulb.

 

This proves nothing. You have no evidence that Mo Pai will provide any results and even if it does you will not realise those results because you will never have access to that system. You have chosen a path upon which you will never set foot.

 

I repeat "This would be tragic were it not laughable."

 

So please feel free to continue along your road to nowhere but do not criticise others for not holding your hand and cheering you on your way.

 

An excellent statement that really says all that needs be said, but I would add that the MP Crew would be warmly welcome to discuss their system and beliefs here if it weren't for their insistence that everybody who doesn't walk that road to nowhere is an idiot, a dupe and a consumer of placebo-gong.

 

I've yet to read a single word from any one of them to convince me that their system produces anything other than a juvenile, anti-social, paranoid, megalomaniacal and bigoted mindset. But I'm open to having the scales removed from my eyes.

[dayzhaze]

I am more than a little bemused by your posts. You continue to speak of evidence which depicts Mo Pai as a proven system and have posted a video of John Chang lighting a bulb.

 

This proves nothing. You have no evidence that Mo Pai will provide any results and even if it does you will not realise those results because you will never have access to that system. You have chosen a path upon which you will never set foot.

 

I repeat "This would be tragic were it not laughable."

 

So please feel free to continue along your road to nowhere but do not criticise others for not holding your hand and cheering you on your way.

 

"There are two ways to be fooled: one is to believe what isn’t true, the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Soren Kierkegaard

 

 

 

"posted a video of John Chang lighting a bulb."

 

"You have no evidence that Mo Pai will provide any results"

 

You are right, lighting a LED light bulb is a David Blane type magic trick.. Lighting a LED is not evidence.  It isn't until you bring in scientists and medical doctors to try and debunk it, that the reality of the situation is proven.

 

"This proves nothing."

 

Yes it does. It happened, and you have to deal with it.  Well technically I suppose you can sit in your chair and mumble to yourself about 2+2=5 and the sky being neon green,  that's on you.

 

 

"even if it does"

 

It does.

 

 

"you will not realise those results"

 

Speak for yourself, not for me.

 

"you will never have access to that system. You have chosen a path upon which you will never set foot."

 

Really? That's news to me.  I guess Jim and Kosta were in the same boat.

 

"This would be tragic were it not laughable."

 

Oh I completely agree.  It is both comedy and tragedy.  What other forums can you go to where the make believe is treasured, and proof so despised?  It's enough to make a persons head explode from the absurdity. It is no wonder the neigong forum had to be created to get away from this insanity.

 

"So please feel free to continue along your road to nowhere"

 

You mean somewhere.  Demanding proof a system does anything at all, locating it's teachings, and practicing it leads somewhere.  What leads to nowhere is finding placebo gong schools, and listening to teachers who can't prove their abilities. 

 

With Metta,

 

May our creator bless you, and your family,  Namaste.

Edited September 26, 2015 by dayzhaze

[dayzhaze]

I've yet to read a single word from any one of them to convince me that their system

 

I don't think they are trying to win you over with beliefs, or personal testimonies to it's efficacy.  They are presenting you with evidence to examine and appealing to your reason, and logic.  I think the core problem here is that most spiritual people are not logical or reasonable,  don't value those qualities, and even consider them undesirable in spiritual matters.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you, and your family,  Namaste.

Edited September 25, 2015 by dayzhaze

[Aeran]

That's certainly not the perspective I get from speaking with them. They are open to any system so long as there is evidence on par with mopai provided. That seems reasonable to me.

How do they know what a given teacher/system is or isn't capable of if they've never investigated it?

 

The irony of this whole thing is that if it hadn't been for a communication error between Chang and a documentary crew 20 odd years ago, Chang would never have been revealed to the West and you, lacking your youtube videos, would disbelieve anyone who came online claiming they had met this man who could perform all these feats which are labelled as impossible by current Western scientific consensus.

 

 

I'm satisfied with what I have. Almost 100 percent of all systems are placebo gong, and I am not rich enough to investigate them all.

How do you know "almost 100 percent of all systems are placebo" when you've never investigated them, never encountered their teachers or practitioners? Don't even know they exist? Don't you see how absurd and arrogant that stance is?

 

I think the best I can do personally is invest my time in a school which has proven itself,

You aren't invested in Mo Pai though, the real Mo Pai school is in Asia and has no idea who you are. You're invested in the interpretation of Mo Pai being spread online by a guy who trained under a guy who trained with Mo Pai for a few years before being cut off.

 

and complete all that I can before wasting my time searching for more.

See that makes no sense to me. Instead of wasting years of your life in a dead end pseudo-system before seeking out a legitimate master, why not seek one out now and begin training directly under them? If you know you're eventually going to have to find a master anyway, why put it off?

 

The anti-mopai faction hates anyone who says there is no proof like mo pai for other systems. That is seen as arrogant, and enraging. So if Kosta said something like that, don't you think they would string him up too?

No, because if they openly string up Kosta, they lose the ability to cite his books as a textbook/manual and thus lose most of their legitimacy.

 

I've spoken with Kosta and he is very careful with his wording in emails, because he is always being watched and anything he says can be used against him later. In his interviews I get the impression he is having to pretend very hard to blend in with and humor the people asking questions so as not to offend them. He is a smart man, and walks on eggshells to avoid as much criticism as he can, and I can't blame him. I mean look where being blunt and honest got the space panda group. As to other valid systems, I begged and pleaded with Kosta for some time for recommendations for schools or paths like mopai and was given nothing other than go find a Buddhist/Taoist temple and ask them sort of response. So I think Kosta humors the general public about his own personal beliefs to avoid the type of vitriol that gets sprayed in the eyes of the space pandas. I can't say it is a bad strategy.

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

So basically you've decided to completely reinterpret what he's said to fit your own assumptions?

 

The bolded part is good advice though - you should listen to him. I know it's easy to just sit back and accept online guides from someone who trained under someone who trained under someone etc etc. but you'd be much better off in the long run going outside your comfort zone, putting in a little effort and finding a living, genuine lineage which meets your needs.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Aeran

[dayzhaze]

How do they know what a given teacher/system is or isn't capable of if they've never investigated it?

 

The irony of this whole thing is that if it hadn't been for a communication error between Chang and a documentary crew 20 odd years ago, Chang would never have been revealed to the West and you, lacking your youtube videos, would disbelieve anyone who came online claiming they had met this man who could perform all these feats which are labelled as impossible by current Western scientific consensus.

 

 

 

 

How do you know "almost 100 percent of all systems are placebo" when you've never investigated them, never encountered their teachers or practitioners? Don't even know they exist? Don't you see how absurd and arrogant that stance is?

 

 

 

You aren't invested in Mo Pai though, the real Mo Pai school is in Asia and has no idea who you are. You're invested in the interpretation of Mo Pai being spread online by a guy who trained under a guy who trained with Mo Pai for a few years before being cut off.

 

 

 

See that makes no sense to me. Instead of wasting years of your life in a dead end pseudo-system before seeking out a legitimate master, why not seek one out now and begin training directly under them? If you know you're eventually going to have to find a master anyway, why put it off?

 

 

 

So basically you've decided to completely reinterpret what he's said to fit your own assumptions?

 

The bolded part is good advice though - you should listen to him. I know it's easy to just sit back and accept online guides from someone who trained under someone who trained under someone etc etc. but you'd be much better off in the long run going outside your comfort zone, putting in a little effort and finding a living, genuine lineage which meets your needs.

 

 

Alright Mr. "I'm not going to drag this out"

 

How do they know what a given teacher/system is or isn't capable of if they've never investigated it?

 

John stepped up and allowed himself to be investigated by scientists, other teachers if they are legitimate can do the same.

 

"The irony of this whole thing is that if it hadn't been for a communication error between Chang and a documentary crew 20 odd years ago, Chang would never have been revealed to the West and you, lacking your youtube videos, would disbelieve anyone who came online claiming they had met this man who could perform all these feats which are labelled as impossible by current Western scientific consensus."

 

So what? Sure there may be teachers like him hidden,  there certainly aren't many, and it certainly isn't worth anyone's trouble to try and investigate millions of placebo gong frauds to find one legit teacher. If you think the situation stinks you go invest your time and money investigating placebo gong frauds and demanding evidence you'll never get from them.

 

 

Don't you see how absurd and arrogant that stance is?"

 

There is nothing arrogant or absurd about it, it's how the world is. You can accept it, or you can live in a fantasy world.  Either way is fine by me.

 

You aren't invested in Mo Pai

 

Speak for yourself, not for me.

 

You're invested in the interpretation of Mo Pai

 

Speak for yourself, not for me.

 

a guy who trained with Mo Pai for a few years before being cut off.

 

So, he knows what he was taught and that's all that matters. I can read his words directly for myself.

 

 

dead end pseudo-system

 

Even the first few levels of a REAL system are infinitely more profound and meaningful than make believe placebo gong nonsense.

 

seeking out a legitimate master

 

There are a small handful of such individuals alive on earth,  my odds of finding a real teacher are worse than winning the lottery.  As my teacher says: "We do the best we can with what we have"

 

why not seek one out now and begin training directly under them?

 

Why not win the lottery 100 times in a row and quit being poor? I mean that could happen right? Why not do it?

 

"If you know you're eventually going to have to find a master anyway, why put it off?"

 

Our creator opens doors when we've finished what we've been given, and not before.

 

So basically you've decided to completely reinterpret what he's said to fit your own assumptions?

 

No I can just tell he is pandering to some poor delusional new-agey space cadets rather than be honest with them, and wind up in a situation like I am, or the space panda group is. It's obvious to me he is intelligent enough to bite his lip, and play along with the placebo gongers to avoid conflict.  Being honest makes life infinitely more difficult. 

 

you should listen to him

 

I did, they didn't know or care.

 

accept online guides from someone who trained under someone who trained under someone etc etc

 

That's not the case.  This system works via oral transmission.  I have direct instruction as written verbatim by Jim.  I also have indirect instruction by Kosta from his students.  This is how Chang himself

learned, from a teacher. That's how this process works.

 

 

No, because if they openly string up Kosta, they lose the ability to cite his books as a textbook/manual and thus lose most of their legitimacy.

 

You misread what I typed. The Anti-Mopai faction here doesn't cite Kostas books, or even think they are legitimate.  What I said was if Kosta were to come out and be honest with you guys with uncomfortable truths you don't want to hear, you would string him up just like the space panda group, or anyone else who takes up for mopai in general. 

 

finding a living, genuine lineage

 

Again winning the lottery 100 times in a row would be a more realistic feat.  I've got enough training in a real system to satisfy me till I die if need be.  If our creator does not see fit to open any more doors for me before I return to him, then so be it.

 

Now you've said a few times you'd stop dragging this out. I ask that you stick to your word and stop doing just that.

 

I sincerely share my Metta with you.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

Edited September 25, 2015 by dayzhaze

[Aeran]

John stepped up and allowed himself to be investigated by scientists, other teachers if they are legitimate can do the same.

 

It isn't a teacher's obligation to prove themselves to anyone, certainly not to people who aren't willing to give them the time of day unless they play lab rat. If Chang had had the same attitude you do, he would never have been initiated into the Mo Pai lineage - as I recall from his account in the book, his master didn't demonstrate his powers until several years into Chang's training.

 

o what? Sure there may be teachers like him hidden,  there certainly aren't many, and it certainly isn't worth anyone's trouble to try and investigate millions of placebo gong frauds to find one legit teacher. If you think the situation stinks you go invest your time and money investigating placebo gong frauds and demanding evidence you'll never get from them.

 

Isn't worth the trouble to find a complete and legitimate system with a living lineage? You have strange priorities.

 

So what? Sure there may be teachers like him hidden,  there certainly aren't many, and it certainly isn't worth anyone's trouble to try and investigate millions of placebo gong frauds to find one legit teacher. If you think the situation stinks you go invest your time and money investigating placebo gong frauds and demanding evidence you'll never get from them.

 

you have no idea how many there are or aren't if you've never taken the time to search.

 

 

There is nothing arrogant or absurd about it, it's how the world is. You can accept it, or you can live in a fantasy world.  Either way is fine by me.

 

Running around actively accusing people of being fraudulent because you can't be bothered to find out whether they are or aren't is absolutely absurd and arrogant. If you simply said "I have no idea if X is legitimate because I have no experience with it," then nobody would care.

 

 

Speak for yourself, not for me.

 

Are you training under John Chang, his nominated successor or someone with current approval to transmit the Mo Pai teachings from either of those two individuals? Because if you aren't, then you aren't training in the Mo Pai lineage.

 

 

So, he knows what he was taught and that's all that matters. I can read his words directly for myself.

 

Not necessarily. Putting aside the issue of learning from books and online instructions and leaked emails, a lineage is more than a collection of techniques and exercises. Remember the section of Magus of Java where Kosta receives a sign from the spirit of Chang's teacher after breaking his oath and speaking to a friend about what he'd learned after his first visit to Chang? Or the fact that Chang cut off all the Western students after being ordered to do so by a spirit further back in the lineage? You should think on those events.

 

 

Even the first few levels of a REAL system are infinitely more profound and meaningful than make believe placebo gong nonsense.

 

Compared to what? You have no idea what is or isn't "placebo" because you haven't taken the time to investigate different systems.

 

I also find Danaos' thoughts on the issue rather interesting:

 

 

"Having rejected the spiritual base of the Mo Pai, I no longer wished to be involved; neikung is too much work

 

and

 

 If you are interested in achieving transcendence of the spirit via a method similar to the MoPai, then I would counsel following the path of Tibetan Buddhism from a good teacher of the Naropa yogas, though you must be prepared to dedicate twelve years of your life. If you are interested in martial arts, I would suggest the lineage of Chen taichichuan as taught by Chen Xiaowang, who is a great master. If you are interested in power, I am personally very capable with both a Glock 17 and a Ruger .357 Vaquero, and can recommend both these firearms without hesitation." - Kosta Danaos, Taobums interview

 

Or are the Naropa Yogas and Chen Taiji both "placebo gong" because there are no videos of practitioners settings newspapers on fire? What about Kundalini Yoga, which he dedicated a sizable portion of his second book to discussing? Did he do that just to placate the "delusional new-agey space cadets"?

 

 

Our creator opens doors when we've finished what we've been given, and not before.

 

An admirable attitude, but it rather contradicts your whole "everything is bunk unless it's been filmed while some dudes with some kind of science degrees are present, then uploaded on youtube" attitude. Unless there's a youtube video of God floating around I've missed.

 

 

No I can just tell he is pandering to some poor delusional new-agey space cadets rather than be honest with them, and wind up in a situation like I am, or the space panda group is. It's obvious to me he is intelligent enough to bite his lip, and play along with the placebo gongers to avoid conflict.  Being honest makes life infinitely more difficult.

 

So basically wherever he disagrees with you, it's obvious to you that he really actually agrees with you, but doesn't want to say so. Right...

 

 

That's not the case.  This system works via oral transmission.  I have direct instruction as written verbatim by Jim.  I also have indirect instruction by Kosta from his students.  This is how Chang himself

learned, from a teacher. That's how this process works.

 

Written instructions aren't "oral transmission" by definition - that's leaving out all the problems caused by the absence of a teacher.

 

Chang learned by training directly, in person, at the feet of a man who had mastered the system himself. There's a big difference between that and using books/leaked emails/online instruction.

 

You misread what I typed. The Anti-Mopai faction here doesn't cite Kostas books, or even think they are legitimate.  What I said was if Kosta were to come out and be honest with you guys with uncomfortable truths you don't want to hear, you would string him up just like the space panda group, or anyone else who takes up for mopai in general.

 

I didn't misread you at all, in fact this is a perfect example of what I was talking about - when I mentioned that Danaos was prone to the same human biases as everyone else, you got wildly defensive (presumably because you support your worldview with statements from his books), but now you're accusing him of outright lying to defend your own position when he disagrees with your worldview. It's a tad contradictory.

 

And there is no "anti-Mo Pai" faction here, but there's definitely an anti-"people who practice alleged Mo Pai techniques without permission from the lineage using written/leaked/third hand instructions, encourage others to do so, and then barge into random discussions claiming that anybody else who doesn't do so is just roleplaying and that any master who doesn't have a youtube video of them demonstrating energetic powers is a complete fraud" sentiment.

 

 

Now you've said a few times you'd stop dragging this out. I ask that you stick to your word and stop doing just that.

 

I said it once in reference to a specific train of discussion, but what can I say, I'm a sucker for debates And I think someone should take the effort to counter the toxic rhetoric put out by the members of your group. Nobody is forcing you to reply.

[dayzhaze]

It isn't a teacher's obligation to prove themselves to anyone, certainly not to people who aren't willing to give them the time of day unless they play lab rat. If Chang had had the same attitude you do, he would never have been initiated into the Mo Pai lineage - as I recall from his account in the book, his master didn't demonstrate his powers until several years into Chang's training.

 

 

Isn't worth the trouble to find a complete and legitimate system with a living lineage? You have strange priorities.

 

 

you have no idea how many there are or aren't if you've never taken the time to search.

 

 

 

Running around actively accusing people of being fraudulent because you can't be bothered to find out whether they are or aren't is absolutely absurd and arrogant. If you simply said "I have no idea if X is legitimate because I have no experience with it," then nobody would care.

 

 

 

Are you training under John Chang, his nominated successor or someone with current approval to transmit the Mo Pai teachings from either of those two individuals? Because if you aren't, then you aren't training in the Mo Pai lineage.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. Putting aside the issue of learning from books and online instructions and leaked emails, a lineage is more than a collection of techniques and exercises. Remember the section of Magus of Java where Kosta receives a sign from the spirit of Chang's teacher after breaking his oath and speaking to a friend about what he'd learned after his first visit to Chang? Or the fact that Chang cut off all the Western students after being ordered to do so by a spirit further back in the lineage? You should think on those events.

 

 

 

Compared to what? You have no idea what is or isn't "placebo" because you haven't taken the time to investigate different systems.

 

I also find Danaos' thoughts on the issue rather interesting:

 

 

 

Or are the Naropa Yogas and Chen Taiji both "placebo gong" because there are no videos of practitioners settings newspapers on fire? What about Kundalini Yoga, which he dedicated a sizable portion of his second book to discussing? Did he do that just to placate the "delusional new-agey space cadets"?

 

 

 

An admirable attitude, but it rather contradicts your whole "everything is bunk unless it's been filmed while some dudes with some kind of science degrees are present, then uploaded on youtube" attitude. Unless there's a youtube video of God floating around I've missed.

 

 

 

So basically wherever he disagrees with you, it's obvious to you that he really actually agrees with you, but doesn't want to say so. Right...

 

 

 

Written instructions aren't "oral transmission" by definition - that's leaving out all the problems caused by the absence of a teacher.

 

Chang learned by training directly, in person, at the feet of a man who had mastered the system himself. There's a big difference between that and using books/leaked emails/online instruction.

 

 

I didn't misread you at all, in fact this is a perfect example of what I was talking about - when I mentioned that Danaos was prone to the same human biases as everyone else, you got wildly defensive (presumably because you support your worldview with statements from his books), but now you're accusing him of outright lying to defend your own position when he disagrees with your worldview. It's a tad contradictory.

 

And there is no "anti-Mo Pai" faction here, but there's definitely an anti-"people who practice alleged Mo Pai techniques without permission from the lineage using written/leaked/third hand instructions, encourage others to do so, and then barge into random discussions claiming that anybody else who doesn't do so is just roleplaying and that any master who doesn't have a youtube video of them demonstrating energetic powers is a complete fraud" sentiment.

 

 

 

I said it once in reference to a specific train of discussion, but what can I say, I'm a sucker for debates And I think someone should take the effort to counter the toxic rhetoric put out by the members of your group. Nobody is forcing you to reply.

 

It isn't a teacher's obligation to prove themselves to anyone

 

While this is true, certainly I am not going to waste my time investigating millions of placebo gong teachers that have nothing to offer in hopes of eventually finding someone like John Chang. I am under no obligation to embark on such a fools errand.

 

 

 

Isn't worth the trouble to find a complete and legitimate system with a living lineage? You have strange priorities.

 

Isn't it worth winning the lottery 100 times in a row? I mean come on! How awesome would that be! Why don't you just do it!? You have strange priorities. You can't just walk down the street and find a school like mopai, all there is openly is placebo gong nonsense.

 

 

 

you have no idea how many there are or aren't if you've never taken the time to search.

 

John did, and gave us a pretty good idea. He has proven himself worthy of being taken seriously, and listening to. Even if he was off by a factor of 100 the odds of finding one is abysmal.

 

 

accusing people of being fraudulent

 

I guess it isn't fraud if people know what they are buying. As my teacher says all this is just "spiritual roleplay and entertainment" if people know what it really is, and still want to buy it, more power to them I guess.

 

 

absolutely absurd and arrogant.

 

It is no such thing. It's just using common sense, and being reasonable. I think the biggest issue you guys have with it, is that it breaks character, breaks the 4th wall of the spiritual community if you will. That's a cardinal sin it seems.

 

 

you aren't training in the Mo Pai lineage.

 

Speak for yourself not for me.

 

 

the issue of learning from books and online instructions and leaked emails

 

Indeed those resources are available to me to verify what I am being told by my teacher is true and accurate. He studied with Jim for more than 7 years, and Jim was the top student from the west during his time with Chang. You seem to forget that Chang himself learned through a teacher, and that's how this system works.

 

 

Compared to what? You have no idea what is or isn't "placebo"

 

Compared to placebo gong nonsense. Yes I do, and so does anyone else with common sense.

 

I also find Danaos' thoughts on the issue rather interesting:

 

Kosta is burnt out from dealing with thousands of toxic and delusional placebo gongers. I can't blame him from wanting to disinvolve himself with the community. Perhaps the systems he suggested are the best alternatives that he is aware of, that doesn't mean they are good ones.

 

 

Did he do that just to placate the "delusional new-agey space cadets"?

 

Indeed Kosta has worked hard to maintain good relations with the spiritual community at large. Had he not done so he would be just another space panda.

 

 

Or are the Naropa Yogas and Chen Taiji both "placebo gong" because there are no videos of practitioners settings newspapers on fire? What about Kundalini Yoga, which he dedicated a sizable portion of his second book to discussing?

 

I've seen no evidence they lead anywhere, having an old lineage doesn't mean it does anything.

 

 

An admirable attitude, but it rather contradicts your whole "everything is bunk unless it's been filmed while some dudes with some kind of science degrees are present,

 

No it doesn't. Our creator gave me a brain and expects me to use it, and I intend on doing so. I refuse to waste my time chasing fantasies and placebo gong teachers. I will instead pursue what has been proven to be real.

 

 

So basically wherever he disagrees with you,

 

If kosta were blunt and honest about the spiritual community at large he would be just as unpopular and hated as mopaiguy or the rest of the space pandas, I think he has gone to extraordinary measures to be perceived in a more positive light, even if that meant pandering to newage placebo gongers.

 

Written instructions aren't "oral transmission" by definition - that's leaving out all the problems caused by the absence of a teacher.

 

No but oral transmission is oral transmission. Also I have a teacher, oral instruction, and written instruction. I can confirm what I was taught orally by my teacher who was Jim's student was accurate via what Jim wrote, and other students who studied under Kosta wrote.

 

 

 

Chang learned by training directly, in person, at the feet of a man who had mastered the system himself.

 

I studied under my teacher, he under Jim, and Jim directly under Chang. That's how this works.

 

 

 

I didn't misread you at all,

 

Yes you did. I stated that if Kosta had been blunt and honest, like the space panda group that the anti-mopai faction would have strung Kosta up just as they have done the space pandas. Obviously he was smarter than that and knew how to pander, and placate the ignorant masses to avoid such a fate. You wrote "No, because if they openly string up Kosta, they lose the ability to cite his books as a textbook/manual and thus lose most of their legitimacy." The spacepandas would not be the one stringing Kosta up, the anti-mopai faction would be. Even if the anti-mopai faction hated Kosta more than they currently do, the space pandas would still quote him as an authority because he is. The anti-mopai group isn't going to accept anything Kosta said if they disagree with it no matter what, it will just be accused of being a mistranslation or some other nonsense.

 

 

now you're accusing him of outright lying to defend your own position when he disagrees with your worldview.

 

When you are a public figure like Kosta, you have to be extremely careful with how you are perceived, or you could wind up a space panda. Listening to his interview, his inflections, mannerisms, I honestly feel as though he is gritting his teeth in pain, and having to swallow his pride and pander to those silly newage people so as not to step on any toes, hey but perhaps I am wrong and he actually believes what he is saying to them. Experience has taught me to understand there is more to language than just words, some things are inferred via such mannerisms like sarcasm.

 

And there is no "anti-Mo Pai" faction here,

 

Did you type that lie with a straight face, or did you smirk?

 

 

alleged Mo Pai techniques

 

Not alleged.

 

 

using written/leaked/third hand instructions

 

Again Jim was Chang's number one student from the west. My teacher studied with him for more than 7 years. I can confirm what I am taught via Jim's own words, and the teachings of Kosta passed down by his students. It is a direct oral transmission, in addition to having written notes to confirm them. This is how the school has worked since it's beginning, from teacher to student. It is how Chang himself learned it.

 

 

doesn't have a youtube video of them demonstrating energetic powers is a complete fraud"

 

The important part is having scientists and medical doctors investigate to rule out fraud. That's the important part you left out.

 

 

counter the toxic rhetoric put out by the members of your group.

 

It's only toxic to roleplay. It is simple, and should be common sense. Asking for proof is the first step in being a critical thinker. If you can't do this you will be conned.

 

 

With Metta.

 

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

Edited September 25, 2015 by dayzhaze

[SonOfTheGods]

Getting a team of reputable scientists who have the funding to study an individual is no small task.

I attempted twice with a group who debunks, and I believe they were connected to the Amazing Rhandi.

They set up interviews, and I had corresponded with them in Email a couple of times.

I would be naked, or however they wanted to set up the control experiment.

5 feet away from any of the debunkers, I would send an energy transmission to their chest.

I just wanted 15 minutes.

If I can make them tap (knock out, heart anomaly, pain, etc) it would be declared "non-placebo"

I chose this method because the scientists would know their health was fine- prior to my 15 minutes.

An animal test subject can't explain what happened to them (and why should I injure an animal, anyway?), and lighting a LED lamp or anything else, similar- can be misconstrued, or found "inconclusive".

Chi is an energy that is difficult to measure with conventional instruments.

A human heart is a viable test-control mechanism, as I also can benefit from our 'scientific interaction'

To this date, they never replied back, although they were originally interested and were corresponding until they heard I was not liable nor responsible if one of them endures a long standing health issue.

Maybe they thought I was just insane?

Perchance the human scientific test subject is just not a good indicator?

Maybe there is no 1,00,000 dollar prize after all?

I also had my own long standing offer on my forum for almost 1 year- offering a $5,000 challenge.

It is documented in the WinRARs available for free download on my forum.

I wanted to live stream a similar painful experiment and the financial proceeds of any YouTube live streamers watching would go to the winner's charity.

Yes, the test subject also had to put up a $5,000 in a neutral PayPal account.

Unfortunately, I no longer have $5,000 because I wasted it on the continued re-purchasing of electronic equipment because I kept frying mine. (Fried by making videos and taking photos of doing Chi demos)

I guess my Shen caught up with my Chi because noways, I no longer feel compelled to try and convince the mainstream that Chi is real.

My proof is my members who cultivate my LoneMan Pai™ Techniques, and have received steady gains that help them in life. FOR FREE.

They have convinced me to stop making videos, and just enjoy their rewards with them.

Good advice, they taught me well.

I'm also pretty certain, that eventually Chi will become weaponized- and I want no part in that, - Karma speaking.

I'm $5,000 lighter, but much smarter and peaceful these days.


 

Edited September 25, 2015 by SonOfTheGods

[MooNiNite]

I don't view the 1,000,000 randi challenge as reasonable. He gets to pick and choose who he challenges, so most people that apply are denied over and over.. someone even tried to sue Randi because he kept getting denied on no reasonable grounds.

 

http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_articles/Doctor's-Data-v-Barrett/milliondollarsuit1.htm

 

The $1,000,000 Rhandi challenge pays out in bonds over a long period of time, not cash in hand. The person will be dead and the contract negated before they receive $1,000,000. 

 

"But the biggest thing is that Randi’s signature has never appeared underneath it. It’s a hoax. It was conceived of by an entertainer, a man who has made a career deceiving and tricking people, a particularly nasty little man who has a grudge to bear against the world, revealed in the animosity routinely shown towards applicants."

Edited September 25, 2015 by MooNiNite

[Aeran]

Yeah the... dubious nature of Randi's "challenge" has been known for a while now. Here's another interesting commentary:

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge.html

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p.html

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p_1.html

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_a.html

 

Some interesting accounts from scientists who have tried to organize undertaking the challenge - the second one is particularly interesting because it demonstrates that Randi is willing to straight up lie to the public to maintain his credibility:

 

http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/media-skeptics-m-z/randi-james/james-randi-reneges-on-the-randi-prize/

 

http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/media-skeptics-m-z/randi-james/james-the-amazing-randi-and-dogs-who-know-more-than-he-does/

 

Before reading that I always figured Randi was stubborn and arrogant but basically well meaning. Now I sometimes wonder if he isn't consciously aware of the evidence out there which would disprove the worldview he's built his career on and maintaining a front to prevent the blow to his reputation. Either way, his "test" is meaningless as anything but a testament to the ability of one man to leech fame and public attention.

 

 

 

It isn't a teacher's obligation to prove themselves to anyone

While this is true, certainly I am not going to waste my time investigating millions of placebo gong teachers that have nothing to offer in hopes of eventually finding someone like John Chang. I am under no obligation to embark on such a fools errand.



Isn't worth the trouble to find a complete and legitimate system with a living lineage? You have strange priorities.

Isn't it worth winning the lottery 100 times in a row? I mean come on! How awesome would that be! Why don't you just do it!? You have strange priorities. You can't just walk down the street and find a school like mopai, all there is openly is placebo gong nonsense.



you have no idea how many there are or aren't if you've never taken the time to search.

John did, and gave us a pretty good idea. He has proven himself worthy of being taken seriously, and listening to. Even if he was off by a factor of 100 the odds of finding one is abysmal.


accusing people of being fraudulent

I guess it isn't fraud if people know what they are buying. As my teacher says all this is just "spiritual roleplay and entertainment" if people know what it really is, and still want to buy it, more power to them I guess.


absolutely absurd and arrogant.

It is no such thing. It's just using common sense, and being reasonable. I think the biggest issue you guys have with it, is that it breaks character, breaks the 4th wall of the spiritual community if you will. That's a cardinal sin it seems.


you aren't training in the Mo Pai lineage.

Speak for yourself not for me.


the issue of learning from books and online instructions and leaked emails

Indeed those resources are available to me to verify what I am being told by my teacher is true and accurate. He studied with Jim for more than 7 years, and Jim was the top student from the west during his time with Chang. You seem to forget that Chang himself learned through a teacher, and that's how this system works.


Compared to what? You have no idea what is or isn't "placebo"

Compared to placebo gong nonsense. Yes I do, and so does anyone else with common sense.

I also find Danaos' thoughts on the issue rather interesting:

Kosta is burnt out from dealing with thousands of toxic and delusional placebo gongers. I can't blame him from wanting to disinvolve himself with the community. Perhaps the systems he suggested are the best alternatives that he is aware of, that doesn't mean they are good ones.


Did he do that just to placate the "delusional new-agey space cadets"?

Indeed Kosta has worked hard to maintain good relations with the spiritual community at large. Had he not done so he would be just another space panda.


Or are the Naropa Yogas and Chen Taiji both "placebo gong" because there are no videos of practitioners settings newspapers on fire? What about Kundalini Yoga, which he dedicated a sizable portion of his second book to discussing?

I've seen no evidence they lead anywhere, having an old lineage doesn't mean it does anything.


An admirable attitude, but it rather contradicts your whole "everything is bunk unless it's been filmed while some dudes with some kind of science degrees are present,

No it doesn't. Our creator gave me a brain and expects me to use it, and I intend on doing so. I refuse to waste my time chasing fantasies and placebo gong teachers. I will instead pursue what has been proven to be real.


So basically wherever he disagrees with you,

If kosta were blunt and honest about the spiritual community at large he would be just as unpopular and hated as mopaiguy or the rest of the space pandas, I think he has gone to extraordinary measures to be perceived in a more positive light, even if that meant pandering to newage placebo gongers.

Written instructions aren't "oral transmission" by definition - that's leaving out all the problems caused by the absence of a teacher.

No but oral transmission is oral transmission. Also I have a teacher, oral instruction, and written instruction. I can confirm what I was taught orally by my teacher who was Jim's student was accurate via what Jim wrote, and other students who studied under Kosta wrote.



Chang learned by training directly, in person, at the feet of a man who had mastered the system himself.

I studied under my teacher, he under Jim, and Jim directly under Chang. That's how this works.



I didn't misread you at all,

Yes you did. I stated that if Kosta had been blunt and honest, like the space panda group that the anti-mopai faction would have strung Kosta up just as they have done the space pandas. Obviously he was smarter than that and knew how to pander, and placate the ignorant masses to avoid such a fate. You wrote "No, because if they openly string up Kosta, they lose the ability to cite his books as a textbook/manual and thus lose most of their legitimacy." The spacepandas would not be the one stringing Kosta up, the anti-mopai faction would be. Even if the anti-mopai faction hated Kosta more than they currently do, the space pandas would still quote him as an authority because he is. The anti-mopai group isn't going to accept anything Kosta said if they disagree with it no matter what, it will just be accused of being a mistranslation or some other nonsense.


now you're accusing him of outright lying to defend your own position when he disagrees with your worldview.

When you are a public figure like Kosta, you have to be extremely careful with how you are perceived, or you could wind up a space panda. Listening to his interview, his inflections, mannerisms, I honestly feel as though he is gritting his teeth in pain, and having to swallow his pride and pander to those silly newage people so as not to step on any toes, hey but perhaps I am wrong and he actually believes what he is saying to them. Experience has taught me to understand there is more to language than just words, some things are inferred via such mannerisms like sarcasm.

And there is no "anti-Mo Pai" faction here,

Did you type that lie with a straight face, or did you smirk?


alleged Mo Pai techniques

Not alleged.


using written/leaked/third hand instructions

Again Jim was Chang's number one student from the west. My teacher studied with him for more than 7 years. I can confirm what I am taught via Jim's own words, and the teachings of Kosta passed down by his students. It is a direct oral transmission, in addition to having written notes to confirm them. This is how the school has worked since it's beginning, from teacher to student. It is how Chang himself learned it.


doesn't have a youtube video of them demonstrating energetic powers is a complete fraud"

The important part is having scientists and medical doctors investigate to rule out fraud. That's the important part you left out.


counter the toxic rhetoric put out by the members of your group.

It's only toxic to roleplay. It is simple, and should be common sense. Asking for proof is the first step in being a critical thinker. If you can't do this you will be conned.


With Metta.

May our creator bless you and your family, Namaste.

Well MPG has done an amazing job indoctrinating you into his worldview. I don't have time to offer a full rebuttal right now, but don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to call me a smirking liar in one paragraph then offer me blessings etc. a few later?

 

Oh, and I don't smirk, I twirl my moustache. Like this:

 

Then I pet my white cat while laughing as my secret conspiracy against the Mo Pai freedom fighters proceeds to crush the valiant battle for truth which threatens my income from the thousands of fake cultivation books and DVD's I publish to fund my vast multimillion criminal empire with. Mwhuahhahahaha.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Aeran

[dayzhaze]

Yeah the... dubious nature of Randi's "challenge" has been known for a while now. Here's another interesting commentary:

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge.html

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p.html

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p_1.html

 

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_a.html

 

Some interesting accounts from scientists who have tried to organize undertaking the challenge - the second one is particularly interesting because it demonstrates that Randi is willing to straight up lie to the public to maintain his credibility:

 

http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/media-skeptics-m-z/randi-james/james-randi-reneges-on-the-randi-prize/

 

http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/media-skeptics-m-z/randi-james/james-the-amazing-randi-and-dogs-who-know-more-than-he-does/

 

Before reading that I always figured Randi was stubborn and arrogant but basically well meaning. Now I sometimes wonder if he isn't consciously aware of the evidence out there which would disprove the worldview he's built his career on and maintaining a front to prevent the blow to his reputation. Either way, his "test" is meaningless as anything but a testament to the ability of one man to leech fame and public attention.

 

 

Well MPG has done an amazing job indoctrinating you into his worldview. I don't have time to offer a full rebuttal right now, but don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to call me a smirking liar in one paragraph then offer me blessings etc. a few later?

 

Oh, and I don't smirk, I twirl my moustache. Like this:

 

Then I pet my white cat while laughing as my secret conspiracy against the Mo Pai freedom fighters proceeds to crush the valiant battle for truth which threatens my income from the thousands of fake cultivation books and DVD's I publish to fund my vast multimillion criminal empire with. Mwhuahhahahaha.

 

There are a lot of people in the Skype group that share this view, besides myself or mopaiguy. 

 

May our creator bless you, and your family.

 

With Metta, Namaste.

[Aeran]

I know. I know everything. Did you fools really think you could hide your activities from the MPEF (Mo Pai Eradication Force)? You think it's just a forum faction but oh, it's so much more... We have people in security agencies all over the world looking for just a hint that someone is trying to spread the truth, to warn the world that Mo Pai is the only true cultivation method, that every other system is a part of our elaborate ruse to scam billions and repress humanity. We monitor every post on your forums, every word said in your skype group, your phones, your social media accounts. None of you can hide from us!

 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Aeran

[gendao]

I do wonder why you couldn't absorb Yin qi from yongquan while standing, or any other points or areas?

 

Also, if Yin qi is "magnetic" (vs "electric" Yang qi), then why treat it like an electrical current or ions via grounding? Magnetism is a field effect dependent on distance and material, not unbroken contact. As in, a connecting copper wire is not going to "conduct" the magnetism any.

 

Absorbing Yin through your Huiyin makes sense to me. But not sure about why that's the best or "only" point...or if "magnetic" Yin qi can actually be conducted like electricity? If so, I would be curious as to the actual reasoning?

In retrospect, I would guess that Huiyin is a major "polar" intersection point on the body - where the Ren, Du, & Chong Mai all meet - and is also conveniently located just below the lower dantian.

This would make it the ideal intake point for charging up the lower dantian - mainly given that the Chong mai probably passes right to it.

 

Whereas Yongquan, for example, wouldn't work as well because it is much further from the lower dantian, which isn't even on the Kidney meridian. So, it'd be like taking a subway line from much further away and that doesn't even directly go where you want to. Not to mention, since most of us have clogged meridians, until we clear them out - a longer commute generally means more blockages to impede your travel. So even if the Kidney meridian led directly to the LDT, it would still be too blocked in most people to allow much qi there...

 

Thing is, without innate intelligence, most practitioners will never be able to fill in all the gaps, blanks, and vague areas of ancient teachings on their own. Like no one else had even asked the original questions I did here, much less was able to answer them... As neither were available anywhere on the internet - so copypasta "thinking" was not an option.

Edited December 13, 2015 by gendao