The Karate Kid

[noonespecial]

 

[Michael Sternbach]

That's an entertaining change of perspective. However, it's only an extension of something that is obviously crucial to the movie's plot: Daniel-san's ego problems and need to prove himself. Mr. Miyagi tries to lead him beyond that.

[noonespecial]

That's an entertaining change of perspective. However, it's only an extension of something that is obviously crucial to the movie's plot: Daniel-san's ego problems and need to prove himself. Mr. Miyagi tries to lead him beyond that.

 

Mr Miyagi is a sorcerer. lmaooo

[Michael Sternbach]

Mr Miyagi is a sorcerer. lmaooo

 

So am I. So what?

[noonespecial]

So am I. So what?

 

Perhaps American humor is lost on the Swiss, video around 4:00, I damn near spit my drink on the keyboard 

[Karl]

Very good. Daniel is clearly the aggressor in that version of events, but they are excerpts and I can't remember the film in context.

 

Bees .....funny.

[soaring crane]

ok, that was really very well done, bravo :-)

[Michael Sternbach]

Perhaps American humor is lost on the Swiss, video around 4:00, I damn near spit my drink on the keyboard 

 

Oh, I have no problem with folks ridiculing the heroes of my teenage years.

 

[Nungali]

Perhaps American humor is lost on the Swiss, video around 4:00, I damn near spit my drink on the keyboard 

 

yep, that, and the bit just after it in the clip , has to be one of the most stupid parts of the movie and an absolutely ridiculous demo of a supposed bunkai from hakutsuru   ......   a classic  Americanised  showy 'wrong interpretation' 

 

.... but sooo wrong many may not have got that  'joke'    (some may have even tried to emulate it .... now that  really makes the joke come off !      ) 

Edited September 23, 2015 by Nungali

[noonespecial]

tough crowd yo.

[Michael Sternbach]

yep, that, and the bit just after it in the clip , has to be one of the most stupid parts of the movie and an absolutely ridiculous demo of a supposed bunkai from hakutsuru   ......   a classic  Americanised  showy 'wrong interpretation' 

 

... but sooo wrong many may not have got that  'joke'    (some may have even tried to emulate it .... now that  really makes the joke come off !      ) 

 

Of course, you are right. But considering that it's a movie for a general audience, I would give it credit for at least hinting at the origin of Okinawan Karate in the White Crane system - something that, at the time it was published, even many advanced Karate instructors were (and possibly still are) not aware of.

 

Likewise, in part 3 of the series, at the climax, Daniel starts performing a kata (a form in Karate, for you non-initiates out there) in the ring. Conveniently, the opponent attacks at the right moment and in the right manner for Daniel to use a throw occurring in the kata...

 

That seems stupid too, but to be fair, it's hardly more unrealistic than the popular JKA type of bunkai (interpretation), and at least demonstrates the awareness that there ARE throws in the katas.

[noonespecial]

I now realize i know nothing of martial arts.

[Nungali]

Of course, you are right.

 

yes .... < huffs breath on nails, buffs them on shirt > .... yes I am . 

 

 

 

 But considering that it's a movie for a general audience, I would give it credit for at least hinting at the origin of Okinawan Karate in the White Crane system -

 

The general audience got that ! ?  Not sure about that .... more than once I was told that some long running stories ( true or not) from the history of those Okinawan teachers were BS as they 'got it from Karate Kid' ... some people actually think the movie was the source ... I know this seems crazy, but I am talking about the 'general movie audience.

 

But yes, they may have at least got the 'Okinawan thing'. 

 

 

something that, at the time it was published, even many advanced Karate instructors were (and possibly still are) not aware of. Likewise, in part 3 of the series, at the climax, Daniel starts performing a kata (a form in Karate, for you non-initiates out there) in the ring. Conveniently, the opponent attacks at the right moment and in the right manner for Daniel to use a throw occurring in the kata...

 

<cringe>   I must have stopped watching by that bit. 

 

 

That seems stupid too, but to be fair, it's hardly more unrealistic than the popular JKA type of bunkai (interpretation), and at least demonstrates the awareness that there ARE throws in the katas.

 

 

I guess ... I been away from JKA for so long  ... the alternative now seems natural ....   I guess ( at least back then ) it was still an unknown ... and in some places, still is today. 

 

[ I read a great story from an American guy who went to Japan to study Ninjitsu.  From his descriptions it sounded more like an Okinawan style ....  my fav bit was when he arrived and they asked him to show them what he knew, so he did his most 'advanced' kata for them.  Then one of them said " I remember that ! " and jumped up and did the kata in an exaggerated manner, very stiff and robot like and making  silly ki-i noises each move  while the others laughed.

 

Dude wrote that he never could understand that part of their interaction with him    

[Michael Sternbach]

I guess ... I been away from JKA for so long  ... the alternative now seems natural ....   I guess ( at least back then ) it was still an unknown ... and in some places, still is today. 

 

[ I read a great story from an American guy who went to Japan to study Ninjitsu.  From his descriptions it sounded more like an Okinawan style ....  my fav bit was when he arrived and they asked him to show them what he knew, so he did his most 'advanced' kata for them.  Then one of them said " I remember that ! " and jumped up and did the kata in an exaggerated manner, very stiff and robot like and making  silly ki-i noises each move  while the others laughed.

 

Dude wrote that he never could understand that part of their interaction with him    

 

You certainly know the first move in Heian shodan (Pinan nidan for you, I suppose), where you step to the left to a forward stance with a lower block, then step through to a right forward stance with a lunge punch.

 

Well, according to the official JKA doctrine, this is how to read the sequence: Somebody attacks you with a middle level step-through punch from too far away to reach you anyway. So you step forward in harm's way just to block the punch. The attacker now takes a full step back! (Looks like your previous action convinced him that you must be completely mad, so he changed his mind about messing with you.) That's why you step through with a middle level punch yourself, and, hey - finish him off!

 

It goes without saying that there are entirely different ways to read the sequence for someone who has the eyes to see...

Edited September 28, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Where did you encounter this 'official JKA doctrine'  ? 

[Michael Sternbach]

Where did you encounter this 'official JKA doctrine' ?

It can be seen in numerous books and videos. Most prominently, in the authoritative "Original JKA Kata" video series from the mid-80s (still available on DVD).

 

Several Shotokan greats are demonstrating the BS there. To be fair, I should mention that there was a debate among them about it before, but it was decided to make things as simple as possible for the general (international) audience.

 

Along these lines, I remember once attending a seminar with a widely known Shotokan master. We practiced with a partner what was supposed to be the interpretation of Heian godan. It was completely unrealistic. Why would I purposefully turn my back on an opponent in front of me to hit him with a backward backfist?!

 

After that strange training session, a co-instructor heard me tentatively mention to a fellow that the distance to the partner is sometimes problematic. He insisted that was just because we stupid students didn't adhere closely enough to the kata moves!

 

It was not until much later that I heard of the real bunkai - including kyusho-jitsu, tuite, nage-waza. Now, things started falling into place. Not least some previously mysterious statements by Shotokan founder Gichin Funakoshi in his Karate-do Kyohan. Funakoshi still knew the true Okinawan tradition, but was not exactly outspoken about it. With his seniors, things went south for good.

 

Only in fairly modern times, the openness of certain Okinawan masters and their western students made the real applications readily accessible.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Cant remember the guys name but  an early Okinawan Karateka  (1st generation - ie, contemporary to Bushi Matsamura  ,  the time when the Okinawan King was deposed - thats when it started to spread out to others and for other reasons ) but the story was he was in Japan during Funakoshi's introduction and first demos and he publicly skoffed at his form and challenged him to demonstrate the applications of the moves he was doing.   he didnt  - or couldnt.

 

Besides he  first 'got in'  ( got to teach 'karate' in Japan )  as a primary school physical education course .  So it had to be severely adapted. anyway . 

 

Then, those crazy Japs did what they do  ( for example during one of my forst classes they had put an ancient picture of him on the wall ( as Sesai Frank Nowak was soon to arrive from japan, the first non Japanese JKA 3rd Dan, to take over teaching in Australia  .... one of us goes "Who's the old dude ? "

 

They nearly had a heart attack !    Thus began my indoctrination into the strange world of Japanese karate a la JKA .

 

Officially there are 3  'types'  of karate '  ; kihon, kata, kumite.  :  basics , patterns and forms and 'sports sparring' ( Nowak insisted karate was a sport. ) .  One 'new hero'  ( Shotokan's  ' great white  hope' .... the ' new Kanazawa !   )  put a book out. he proudly stated that he taught all three types of karate !  - Can you imagine a teacher that only taught kihon , going upo and down the hall doing downward blocks and punches ..... keep that thumb joint at a 90 degree angle ... and stop lifting your back heel off the ground and ....     and nothing else !   

 

Arrrgggghhhh    ( runs out of dojo screaming )  

 

But they dont have  bunkai .   I remember once, in a  Shotokan only comp, one of the guys from our club actually managed to do a move from a kata in sparring, and it worked and he got a point .... and it nearly bought the house down. 

 

However , (as I think you know )  there IS  some value in what it was before the degradation  - in where it came from, the old Okinawan 'temple style' .... lay you life on the line .    Not a good plan for a self defense art.

 

But  then it got even further away from what I was taught, St least with the crazy stuff I was taught, I can make some sense of what of may have been ( now that I have learnt a lot more ). But over time, they have taken the crazy bits off to make it more 'reasonable',  thus removing any hope of finding one's way back.

 

For example, this was how I was taught to do R 'upper block'  ;

 

Stand in ready position, extend left arm ( pretty much like a Nazi salute)  and place right fist on r hip,  as you draw L arm back

'punch' forward with the R and  twist roll it up to the upward block finishing position and pull the left hand ( and going from open, to a fist ) into your L hip . The right rising block is supposed to follow the line of the L retracting hand and pass each other, I was told to use that L extended hand to 'sight' the block, to give me a line to follow .

 

WTF !  .... 'site the block ' 

 

I showed this to a local Shotokaner who trains with us ... he has never seen that before, they removed the extend the left hand bit.  But still use the vigorous force and solid blow delivery of the upward block, I asked him why they did that and he didnt know. he explained how all this force was used to knock the attacking punch out of the way.

 

So I got him to stand there in his strongest stance and extend his fist and hold it still, I pushed it aside. "Be stronger ! "  he shuffled and settled down more, I pushed it aside with one finger . He got a bit frustrated.  "Now punch ! " he did and I slapped it aside ... he kept doing these ferocious punches ( that were slow and lumbering, due to doing them 'correctly' ) I easily slapped them aside, then asked him, " If I cxan move your punck aside with one finger or slap it aside as it comes in, why do I need such a rad solid strong stance and so much force to do such a slow and risky to me blocking technique.

 

He didnt know .  

 

A while later at a home training session I ran this past the guys; the L extended hand is actually the block, ( with shuto to their wrist ) and the closing foist as it is withdrawn to the hip is a grab and pull, the upper block is a driving in elbow to the underarm ( yeah ... I hadn;t quiet worked it out at that stage ) ....   one of them skoffed at it, so we tried it slowly and softly , he said " This is BS, I reckon I can come in quick with a quick R / L and  R side of your head is totally open.  I go, I dont think so ...  and he charges me  

 

Oh man !  What actually happened was my forearm hit under his arm pit and my elbow got him straight in the mouth ( because as he tried to punch  around with his L to get me, his head moved over towards my elbow as I came in. Also I was moving forward so there was a big clash of forces (and I aint light! )   I didnt pull the grab back towards my hip as , by now he was crashing backwards so I used it to stop him falling ... he would have landed back first across my front knee if I had pulled him all the way in as he went down.   No one has wanted to practice it since .

 

So, as these ';arts' get pared back to make more sense, a lot more is being lost.

 

I find it an interesting phenomena ( now that I understand it )  - how the Japanese 'style' ( mindset and mentality )  has effected all of this  { How dare you even ask a question ! Just copy teacher .... and that would not even be said - you would be expected to know that.  And a whole not of other considerations ... especially

 

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

 

 

Peter Goldsworthy ( a multi-disciplined scholar in these areas ) has written some excellent papers on this subject ( the Japanese way and how it has effected teaching and transmission ), they are on Aikiweb   and well worth reading ! 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

I meant to say that some of the techniques of Japanese karate  can work quiet well in some circumstances ... if they are applied rightly ( not like they are taught in karate classes ) they can be effective and require a high skill level ... like their expert swordwork, MUCH is reliant on 'tai-sabaki' .... changes in movement while maintaining the right place / position   ( watch a good sword fight movie that is well choreographed - there isnt so much slash and chop, its graceful; and about placement and evasion. )

 

This movie has some good demos of what I mean   ( you must fight him - using only blocks ... and the lunge punch into the throat as  the sword is drawn ..  a great defense . against a reverse roundhouse kick (another crazy, turn-your-back-on-them move ...  @  3:50  below ) and a crazy end fight  ( the idea was , from the director, they just go for it until the' actors' collapse from exhaustion ... they start off pristine and neat in perfect form with crisp white uniforms and end up slugging it out in the mud totally exhausted ... the producer wanted to show the contrast with 'form' and reality  .   also T'the making of ' doco on it is good.   There seemed to be some real life rivalry between the  main good and bad guys in the film .... some of the fighting may have got a bit too real.  

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, that's a great movie. It demonstrates the different styles of the main protagonists (Shotokan and Goju-ryu, respectively) quite nicely.