What gives us the Ability to <fill in the blanks>

[dwai]

In another thread, I noticed one commentator was waxing eloquent about the role of Reasoning. So to that I posed the question - What is it that gives us the ability to reason?

Let me elaborate further with a series of questions.

 

• We interact with our world using the sensory apparatuses and our mind (via thought). 
• Reasoning is integral part of the thinking/function of the mind.

That being said, what gives us the ability to sense? What gives us the ability to think?

 

[Marblehead]

Should we first consider the possibility that there are some who do not have those abilities as they do not have a properly functioning brain?

[Stosh]

Imprecise analogy consequent to symbolic representation stored in the neo-cortex. 

[leth]

It's very simple it is _____.

 

 

No but seriously, to be able to tell what makes us able to sense and to think we need to define what sensing and thinking is. And then we come to the question of what it is that senses and thinks.

 

We don't really understand this fully yet so we can't really understand what it means to ask where the abilty to think and sense comes from, because we don't really understand what it is to sense or to think.

 

Meditation however tends to give some sort of intrisic and tacit "knowledge" of this.

Edited September 30, 2015 by leth

[dwai]

Imprecise analogy consequent to symbolic representation stored in the neo-cortex. 

Is that what gives the ability?

[dwai]

Should we first consider the possibility that there are some who do not have those abilities as they do not have a properly functioning brain?

Haha MH, some of us ARE flawed...but that just results in "faulty" functioning, not lack of functioning, imho (or there'd be no hope for me ... )

[Stosh]

Is that what gives the ability?

Yes.

[Marblehead]

Haha MH, some of us ARE flawed...but that just results in "faulty" functioning, not lack of functioning, imho (or there'd be no hope for me ... )

Good counter point.  Yeah, even the flawed experience the processes.  Only those considered "brain dead" would not be having the experiences. 

 

Leth, above, spoke to the reality of it.  A better understanding of what it is all about is still being sought. 

 

But I will venture to say this:  No one else can have my thoughts.  No one else can reason from my perspective.  This would suggest that my brain is unique just as every one else's is. 

 

And no, I'm not going to say:  I had a mind but I changed it.

[dwai]

Yes.

What gives us the ability to store the imprecise analogy in the neocortex? And what is it that forms this imprecise analogy?

[dwai]

It's very simple it is _____.

 

 

No but seriously, to be able to tell what makes us able to sense and to think we need to define what sensing and thinking is. And then we come to the question of what it is that senses and thinks.

 

We don't really understand this fully yet so we can't really understand what it means to ask where the abilty to think and sense comes from, because we don't really understand what it is to sense or to think.

 

Meditation however tends to give some sort of intrisic and tacit "knowledge" of this.

Might be interesting to develop this thought further. Why do we not understand what it is to sense or think? Sensing and thinking are actions right? What does that imply then?

[Stosh]

What gives us the ability to store the imprecise analogy in the neocortex? And what is it that forms this imprecise analogy?

I figure it is the predisposition pattern of neural connections to fire , which stores 'data', but the biochem basis of memory is still under scrutiny , RNA and so forth , being responsible for encoding specific memories is no longer the current theory. 

Since these patterns are not completely isolated from affecting other subsets of neurons the effect of their influence is generalized. So an apple may be substituted for, or associated with an orange if the info about them ( and therefore the firing cascade) is rather similar. 

A cigar sometimes really is a cigar, and sometimes its not.  

Its just the nature of the beast to make associations , some of them faithful to the original memory and sometimes not. If a critter reproduced faithfully exact, its progeny wouldnt vary, mutation occurs to allow variation from an original plan. Similarly we might apply the idea of tying a shoelace to tying a rope, if the circumstance is close enough. ( notice that its an analogy of something familiar which I am applying in this unorthodox situation, to predispose you to grasping something which feels new so that you might conclude it 'rational' )    

[AussieTrees]

People are units of energy,with many mysterious elements,

eg mind,thought,self,none of which we are able to definitively point at.

We are the awareness of our planet parent,nurtured on stardust over the millennia.

Fill in the gaps as you please.

[doc benway]

In another thread, I noticed one commentator was waxing eloquent about the role of Reasoning. So to that I posed the question - What is it that gives us the ability to reason?

 

Let me elaborate further with a series of questions.

 

• We interact with our world using the sensory apparatuses and our mind (via thought). 
• Reasoning is integral part of the thinking/function of the mind.

That being said, what gives us the ability to sense? What gives us the ability to think?

 

Sensing seems to be related to neurophysiology and subsequent interpretation and storage.

Thinking seems to be primarily the action of memory interacting with language.

Reason seems to be a set of rules rooted in self-constent application of language.

To go deeper than that we will tend to get in to different spiritual or philosophical paradigms I suspect.

No time for more right now. 

Krishnamurti is a great resource for discussions of the nature of thought and reason.

[dwai]

Sensing seems to be related to neurophysiology and subsequent interpretation and storage.

Thinking seems to be primarily the action of memory interacting with language.

Reason seems to be a set of rules rooted in self-constent application of language.

To go deeper than that we will tend to get in to different spiritual or philosophical paradigms I suspect.

No time for more right now. 

Krishnamurti is a great resource for discussions of the nature of thought and reason.

I wonder if any and all of these activities are predicated on something more basic/elementary (for lack of a better word)?

 

I know what I'm thinking of, of course, but I'm using this type of questioning to illustrate a technique that can be employed to see that which you ascribe to spiritual and philosophical paradigms. 

[dwai]

I figure it is the predisposition pattern of neural connections to fire , which stores 'data', but the biochem basis of memory is still under scrutiny , RNA and so forth , being responsible for encoding specific memories is no longer the current theory. 

Since these patterns are not completely isolated from affecting other subsets of neurons the effect of their influence is generalized. So an apple may be substituted for, or associated with an orange if the info about them ( and therefore the firing cascade) is rather similar. 

A cigar sometimes really is a cigar, and sometimes its not.

Its just the nature of the beast to make associations , some of them faithful to the original memory and sometimes not. If a critter reproduced faithfully exact, its progeny wouldnt vary, mutation occurs to allow variation from an original plan. Similarly we might apply the idea of tying a shoelace to tying a rope, if the circumstance is close enough. ( notice that its an analogy of something familiar which I am applying in this unorthodox situation, to predispose you to grasping something which feels new so that you might conclude it 'rational' )    

What is it that predicates the need to store 'data', etc? 

[AussieTrees]

Confabulation,is a term we use when memory is no longer accurate.

 

In many ways confabulation ;'is filling in the gaps'.

[voidisyinyang]

The question on storage of data is being addressed currently in the debate on black hole information loss paradox - the idea being that the boundary of a black hole stores the information that emanates from the black hole but this information storage is completely entropic or useless in terms of anthropocentric science.

 

Relating that to the human mind occurs via the Holographic brain principle as the universe is also considered to be holographic via the Bekenstein Bound of information storage - and so the mind stores memories not physically but via frequency and time as a holographic imprint, two-dimensionally.

 

This is experienced by the qigong masters as the "fabric" of spacetime and so the question of "why" store the data is actually just a holographic imprint of the illusion of the ego itself - we can not see the origin of spacetime but rather it is this eternal processing of information that creates the energy of spacetime - this eternal processing is the time-frequency domain that originates as self-spontaneous uncertainty in science, called Fourier Uncertainty.

 

So Fourier Uncertainty is non-commutative which means the order of measurement changes whether the information is entropic or negentropic and this means that when a black hole reverse 180 degrees in spacetime it emits energy as a white hole and this is also the same analogy for how a brain turns into a fully opened third eye - the previously entropic information is reversed 180 degrees into a white hole.

 

For example Kurt Godel said that time travel is possibly only a person can not have any desires to time travel and in terms of meditation this means that what experiences pre-cognition is the formless awareness as a holographic imprint known in quantum physics as the pilot wave of the Law of Phase Harmony. So the phase harmony bends spacetime as it were, traveling into the future as a white hole that is then reversed back or harmonized into the present. If a person maintains this formless awareness then the precognitive information is accessible to be "downloaded" as it were by the individual's brain as a vision, which can only occur while the impersonal witness state is maintained. This is called Prajna or transcendent wisdom in Buddhism, the maintaining of consciousness while in samadhi.

 

Although personal consciousness of the impersonal awareness is not necessary - transformation and action can take place after a person puts that desire to occur - the white hole 180 degree transformation can take place despite the individual not being aware of the change, only to find out after the fact. This again demonstrates that it is the formless awareness doing the action and so "why" there should be data storage in the first place in actuality reveals the ultimate illusion of individual action. Yet at the same time due to the Fourier Uncertainty or what in Taoism is known as the complementary opposites as the Tai Chi - the energy transformation is always taking place eternally as in India known as the three gunas. We can not see this origin of this formless awareness - "three in one" transformation but by realizing this truth and harmonizing with the source of the energy then we can align our individual desires with the source of transformation itself.

 

And so the psychophysiological connection of the brain to mind has been analyzed in quantum biology again based on the holographic principle with Stuart Hammeroff's work providing a good model - the ultrasound resonates the microtubules of the neurons and these microtubules act as a quantum holographic superconducting data processing system. So with increased coherence of the resonance there is increases photon synchronicity - creating a laser holographic energy system, or the unification of yuan shen and yuan qi as known in Taoist alchemy.

 

Another good analogy is processing a photo - and so our subconscious is always taking photos holographically which are then stored in our bodies with a chemical imprint and so meditation is then like processing the photo in a dark room - whereby the chemical imprint is reversed to reveal the otherwise subconscious memory storage. Without the dark room processing then the subconscious ends up getting broken open by accident as entropic information that is mis-used and causes damage - and also at death a person's holographic spirit then contains those lower emotional unprocessed energy blockages which can then hold the spirit or holographic quantum energy at a lower frequency. So then the spirit recycles at a lower frequency more frequently with the memories maintained in that subconscious entropic state whereas with increased meditation the subconscious lower emotional blockages are harmonized into a white light 180 degree reversal so that the energy can be released for conscious productive use - negentropy. Again this cycling of energy occurs within the spacetime domain via the illusion of an individual or anthropocentric interpretation of the data being stored and used, etc. whereas the formless awareness simply sees the energy blockages as a symptom of a future energy harmonization - so that something years later in the future enabled the healing of something seemingly disconnected years in the past - usually healed on a subconscious level. These connections can then be revealed via the life review process at death as a kind of final information download of the memories - only not in a linear chronological fashion as life was experienced but rather as the quantum chaotic synchronicities of the holographic information storage itself in the spirit.

 

And so the more impersonal the energy processing of information occurs the more quickly the energy can be recharged as harmonization of information itself through these black hole-white hole 180 degree reversal of the spacetime domain. This enables energy to be built up, stored up, as pure harmonized spirit-qi energy which originates from the pure harmonization process itself based on this self-aware knowledge of the resonance of the universe. This is what has traditionally been called being a master healer or having the third eye fully opened or being a God-man, etc. These people can literally heal dead spirits as the holographic information storage is reversed so that the entropic information bound of the spirit can be turned from black hole energy into white light information. Also living people are healed the same way whereby the God-man through the heart-white hole source of the Universe literally creates new whole spirits that are a holographic imprint which then heals the person's entropic information they subconsciously hold - such that the God-man is literally creating new spirits as yin shen energy which goes out of the third eye and travel out to the person being healed. Each person being healed receives a different yin shen spirit individualized to reverse the black hole entropic information of that person's spirit. I've personally seen this being done - living people being healed and dead spirits being healed by this holographic spirit energy sent out by the God-man qigong master.

[leth]

Might be interesting to develop this thought further. Why do we not understand what it is to sense or think?

 

Becase we do not know what it is that senses or thinks. And without being abel to define an agent for the sensing and thinking we can't fully understand what it is to sense or think.

 

Sensing and thinking are actions right?

 

In a sense, we often think about sensing and thinking as actions. Actions however are often related to ability to think, if one does not think than can one take action? If something is able to sense but not think, then is that an action? Can plants think? and if not, are their ability to sense an action or not?

 

And is thinking an action? Is not thinking a requirment for actions? If thinking is a requirement for an action, then thinking can not in itself be an action, or can it?

 

What does that imply then?

 

If sensing is an action then it implies there must be a conciousness for something to sense, and in that sense how do we meassure sensing? Is any form of reaction a sign of conciousness?

 

If thinking is an action, then what is an action?

[Stosh]

What is it that predicates the need to store 'data', etc? 

Is this like when the kids just keep asking " why " in response to every answer given? .. but anyway , 'Need' is a subjective illusion , there is no 'need' dictating that one store data. 

[dwai]

Is this like when the kids just keep asking " why " in response to every answer given? .. but anyway , 'Need' is a subjective illusion , there is no 'need' dictating that one store data. 

Haha...that's my goal. To become a child again ;-)

[dwai]

Becase we do not know what it is that senses or thinks. And without being abel to define an agent for the sensing and thinking we can't fully understand what it is to sense or think.

 

 

In a sense, we often think about sensing and thinking as actions. Actions however are often related to ability to think, if one does not think than can one take action? If something is able to sense but not think, then is that an action? Can plants think? and if not, are their ability to sense an action or not?

 

And is thinking an action? Is not thinking a requirment for actions? If thinking is a requirement for an action, then thinking can not in itself be an action, or can it?

 

 

If sensing is an action then it implies there must be a conciousness for something to sense, and in that sense how do we meassure sensing? Is any form of reaction a sign of conciousness?

 

If thinking is an action, then what is an action?

Indeed..what is an action? Doesn't action imply an actor?

[doc benway]

I wonder if any and all of these activities are predicated on something more basic/elementary (for lack of a better word)?

Undoubtedly so - everything I said is just a description, a labeling.

When we look, what do we find?

Nothing... and everything. 

 

 

I know what I'm thinking of, of course, but I'm using this type of questioning to illustrate a technique that can be employed to see that which you ascribe to spiritual and philosophical paradigms. 

In the paradigm I currently feel most comfortable with the most basic/elementary "substrate" is space and awareness, the union of which is warmth.  Unlike many labels, they are rooted in experiential practice as opposed to theory.

[leth]

Indeed..what is an action? Doesn't action imply an actor?

 

Yes, and action does imply an actor, and ther we are back again, what is it about us that makes us actors?

 

What is conciousness? What is it that experiences? What is it that acts? What is it that decides?

[Marblehead]

It's all in our mind (brain).

[dwai]

Undoubtedly so - everything I said is just a description, a labeling.

When we look, what do we find?

Nothing... and everything. 

 

 

In the paradigm I currently feel most comfortable with the most basic/elementary "substrate" is space and awareness, the union of which is warmth.  Unlike many labels, they are rooted in experiential practice as opposed to theory.

I love this explanation