Awakening versus enlightenment

[Jetsun]

Jetsun, what is the nature of 'prajna'?

 

That is quite a difficult question for me to answer, but I would say something like spontaneous direct knowing which is prior or deeper than the mind, because it is connected to everything it is operating with the intelligence of the whole rather than the local mind which only operates with its localised intelligence and memory.

[Bindi]

That is quite a difficult question for me to answer, but I would say something like spontaneous direct knowing which is prior or deeper than the mind, because it is connected to everything it is operating with the intelligence of the whole rather than the local mind which only operates with its localised intelligence and memory.

I like the idea of prajna, because it just doesn't make sense to me to go around in emptiness, but to go around with spontaneous direct knowing sounds entirely reasonable, and practical.

[Bud Jetsun]

A chess game is won not by practicing end-game finishing techniques.

 

It's won by one pawn push and simple piece trade at a time. Then when the board is less cluttered, if your early pawn game was strong, openings to mate start to present themselves.

 

If you sit down to play chess intent on a 1st move checkmate, good luck.

 

This is like sitting down and attempting zazen mind states without realization of the nature of mind, good luck!

 

So much focus on end game, comparatively no intrest in clearing the board to a point at which it makes sense to even bother looking at end game practices.

 

First live the basics (universal compassion, conclusion of fear-thought/attachment, foundation realizations etc).

 

At this point every second of life is already so unbreakably beautiful and fantastic that looking for checkmate stops being a clinging want, and hence it becomes possible.

 

Until the basics are the rock you live/sleep/dream/breathe, trying to move beyond them seems unlikely to yield more than delusion and frustration.

 

If one meditates before recognizing the nature of mind, how can one know what they are perceiving isn't exclusively mind delusion tricks?

 

If all the folks in the world today focused on chants or energy flow or scheduled ritual practice were instead to choose to spend that same effort towards living universal compassion to all living beings, we would be living in a world with a lot less suffering and a lot more realized beings then capable of begining a journey to enlightenment awareness.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited September 11, 2015 by Bud Jetsun

[3bob]

back to the op, better than getting all ducks lined up in a row, is to just tend the local ducks and the rest will take care of themselves as needed.. otherwise thoughts and projections about awakening and enlightenment tend to cause suffering.

Edited September 12, 2015 by 3bob

[seekingbuddha]

Too bad this thread got hijacked and cluttered.   Don't  admins  step  in situations like this ?  

 

Back to the OP - during today's meditation, it occurred to me that  the confusion about  these 2 words,  has one other cause.  Even though we all live on earth,  each civilization, each geographical region, each race,  each  time-period of humanity  lives in its own  "world".  There are lot of commonalities, but also there are misunderstandings  because we all live in  different worlds  with subtly different words and means to communicate.  So, what is perceived by eastern cultures as  Awakening/Liberation/Enlightenment,  comes to a different World,  and for lack of proper teachers, gets diluted. 

 

Bud posted good words - learn the first moves/foundations  and strengthen in them.  Further steps will reveal themselves with right understanding and right effort.

[Bindi]

Our thoughts and reason sum to create a byproduct artifact illusion of little self. We do not exist because we think, we exist and then choose to think.

 

If one thinks in words, one is thinking in the taught constructs and ones output from such a process inherently wont escape being some arrangements of taught and you-relate-able construct delusions.

 

It's inherently impossible to relate the ineffable, both to those who have and haven't experienced it alike.

 

It's not a destination the fearful and clinging can achieve no matter the dose, they will just use the experience to be in a state of choosing to suffer there own delusions same as they choose to do in every other experience.

 

There are plant tools that can assist in offering an otherwise extremely difficult to find pathway to temporary surrender all your concept of constructs. No concept of a language or any of its associated human delusion shenanigans. No concept of a 'previous' moment ever having been. No concept of a 'future' moment ever 'to be later'. No concept of body, no concept of the capacity for illusions of attachment. No belief illusions of 'knowing' ever having even been an option. Not even a trace illusion of the little looping indoctrination and self-constructed illusion of mind remaining.

 

The surrender and letting go of these normally irrevocable constructs takes an incalculable amount more courage than any other experience encountered on earth to the limit of my limited ability to know it. A lifetime spent racing cars, superbike racing, motocross racing, surfing in visibly sharky waters at night, extreme skiing, orgies etc all becomes inconsequential humdrum in comparison to spending a single ineffable timeless second in this ineffable state of perception.

 

I don't judge you for your answers brothers, prior to the experience, I had also thought such a state of perception would be impossible (because it's impossible to fathom) and if it were possible it would be pointless (because it is pointless to the ego and the little mind that clings to comfort in words and logic etc which aren't involved).

 

It doesn't make you awakened or enlightened or a good person or a bad person or anything, it's just an experience. However, it does forever alter ones awareness of the potential of perception beyond mind that no amount of intellectual looping banter can offer. This is why long ago folks used "mystery schools" and "plant shamans" and "witches brew" etc as tools that have now been replaced by the most part by books of endless looping intellectual banter that inherently can't escape it's own paradigm confines as you've already shown.

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Bud, how did you go beyond the thinking mind?

 

Is it a place you are in permanently?

 

What is the place of feelings within this way of being?

[seekingbuddha]

Some synergistic plants cleared the path. This is also how Milarepa and others were assited. (Needle tea etc) 

 

I enjoyed Milarepa's  songs.  When you say such an Enlightened person was "assisted"  I wonder if i can read the source of such statement.  I have not read his life story and would like to find something online, if possible.  

[3bob]

Btw Bindi, Grace is not a drug and it can not be bought or sold, it also wisely chooses who is ready and then bridges the synchronization to joy and freedom that can not be off-set by any sorrow or binding. 

 

Om

[Bindi]

 

Some synergistic plants cleared the path. This is also how Milarepa and others were assited. (Nettle tea etc)

 

Technically we all permanently have the ability to perceive the unfiltered Now.

 

Practically, even with nearly complete cultured mindfulness and a lot of dedicated effort the path to that ineffable state remains a mystery to access without assistance, and even then only if complete surrender of the 'mind constructed' can be relinquished (attempting to describe this in mind created terms is utterly laughable).

 

The feeling is that of un-mind-imaginable Oneness I will not do the disjustice of attempting pitifully to quantify linguistically.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

 

Thanks for responding. Just to clarify, when I asked you the place of feelings, I was meaning the place of emotions such as compassion, joy, anger, sadness etc., and I'd certainly still appreciate an answer to this question.

 

Also, it's not quite clear whether this state is permanent for you?

[Bud Jetsun]

I enjoyed Milarepa's  songs.  When you say such an Enlightened person was "assisted"  I wonder if i can read the source of such statement.  I have not read his life story and would like to find something online, if possible.  

 

Nettle tea in large doses is an entheogen, from numerous sources he drank so much he turned green, allegedly living from it alone for years. 

 

There are a surprising amount of plants used for special teas aside from merely the addictive stimulant bearing variety greatly popularized by folks who evidently had such uninspiring mediation sessions they struggled to stay awake.  Natural unassisted mediation alternatively can be intense indescribable bliss of wholly and mindfully embracing compassion to all beings, no caffeine stirring up the mind pointlessly needed to stay awake then. 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Bud Jetsun]

 

Thanks for responding. Just to clarify, when I asked you the place of feelings, I was meaning the place of emotions such as compassion, joy, anger, sadness etc., and I'd certainly still appreciate an answer to this question.

 

Also, it's not quite clear whether this state is permanent for you?

 

"The feeling is that of un-mind-imaginable Oneness I will not do the disjustice of attempting pitifully to quantify linguistically."

 

Woefully inadequate, my apologies for not offering better.   There is no relate-able experience reference for which to make comparison.  In compassion I will make an effort for you.  

 

Maybe if you could fathom summing all the emotional intensity of experience all human and animal life in all of beings in all universes through all of the illusion of 'time' all combined into the infinitesimal perception of Now, then squared it, it would still be lacking. 

 

'Non-ultimate-reality' version of answer, no it's not permanent, the layers of separation that arise from my minds mis-conceptions of reality cover over the natural capacity to perceive this state.  Each thing you think or believe or 'run through your mind' or whatever is what you're trading the capacity to perceive this innate state for.  A species would not last beyond it's first generation if it could only exist in this state, it would never feel the need to eat or sleep or reproduce and it would be entirely at peace with dying rapidly with no reason not to, it's requirement for earthly experience would be concluded. 

 

'Ultimate-reality' version of answer, 'true consciousness'/Self is already there and inherently could never leave even if it wanted.  It is the source from which our mind interprets some human sense/dimension/perception limited inputs from to then plug into our series of filters and output some biased judgmental construct-based delusion we then call reality.   

 

Think of putting on a pair of thick gloves, then another pair over the top of them, then another pair over the top of those,  then yet another pair on top off that, etc.  Now attempt to read braille through it.   The culmination of my work has only thinned some layers, there may be infinite layers left or maybe just a few.  When the layers of separation from reality thin, every moment of life becomes so wonder-filled and intensely unbreakably joyful, any urge to rush towards an endgame fades because this moment is already like Heaven/Nirvana (or whatever other linguistic bias one may choose to describe aligning with the nature of reality.) 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[dwai]

 

From what I can understand, awakening apparently involves a realisation of reality, it’s about being in the present, with the mind at bay, no thoughts, which leads to this realisation, and it is available to anyone who is able to completely still their mind. In this state, what is not real appears to fall away over time, leaving only the present, and silence. Apparently risen Kundalini is not necessary to be in an awakened state. Please feel free to correct this definition.

 

But are those who claim to be awakened claiming to be enlightened, and what is enlightenment?

 

First and foremost it seems to me that in enlightenment there must be light, perhaps even an explosion of light within. This light is presumably associated with unity with God/the Cosmos, and direct knowledge from this source. And it is considered to be a long and arduous path to enlightenment, and certain conditions must be met, for example going beyond identity and ego. Is risen kundalini necessary to achieve an enlightened state? Again, this definition may need to be corrected.

 

It does seem that we in the West are more exposed to stories of ‘awakening’ than enlightenment – is it just different terminology, or is there a deeper difference? If there is a difference, does awakening lead to enlightenment?

Becoming awakened (countenancing the pure awareness/objectless consciousness) is the first step towards what we Hindus call "Kaivalyam" or "Moksha" -- it has less to do with being enlightened  and more to do with becoming free. This involves becoming free from the the cycle of reincarnation and karma. Once one is "awakened", then the real work starts...Then it is a constant process of refinement and practice (sadhana) to slowly eliminate the modifications of the consciousness that bind us to patterns of behavior and actions, drawing us back into the cyclical world of Maya.

[seekingbuddha]

I don't  understand  the root  of  all this argument,  perhaps  because  I  don't  remember this thread well.  Did  "Bud  Jetsun"  declare  himself  "Enlightened"  at some point earlier  in this thread ?  Is that the source  of contention ?  I am a bit lazy to read many pages again.   It seems to  me that  there are different  levels  of consciousness   in this thread, which is causing the confusion.   What is being said by  one level of consciousness  is being misunderstood by another level of consciousness. 

 

Tibetian Ice did bring out a good point in establishing the level of effort required to reach  Enlightenment.  While, the number of years in solitude meditation seems to vary  among  the Enlightened ones that we all know of and agree on,  the commonality among them is the level of effort  sustained for these years.   That much effort surely is beyond what ordinary humans are willing to endure.  Besides, we are not living in an age where  accomplished teachers (who have renounced the world) are easily  available.  But, what is within reach for all of us is the ability to get a peek into these mental states which liberated/awakened/Enlightened  beings  enjoy  on a real-time basis.  Some people  seem to get a peek at these mental states through  drugs, herbs;  while others  prefer  to get a sneak-peek  at these mental  states purely  by following the PATH in prescribed  fashion.  

 

It is my belief that  past conditioning (karma) plays a big role in determining who has the genes/ability  to endure  such extraordinary  difficulties.  I have no doubt in what Milarepa said about himself (quoting from Tibetian Ice post) ...... "There is no worldly man braver or with higher aspirations".   This is  a task for a man who has strength and bravery  beyond  human levels. There are many points along this PATH, which would scare the shit out of us,  and turn us back to the worldly life.   Only those  with experience will understand.

[Gerard]

 

From what I can understand, awakening apparently involves a realisation of reality

 

Awakening means realising that you are more than just a body and understanding basic universal principles, Taoist and Buddhist as these two systems are the most developed of the lot.

 

 

 

But are those who claim to be awakened claiming to be enlightened, and what is enlightenment?

 

The end of your samsaric journey. It is manifested as an large opening of light in your crown chakra, you exit and then that's it the end...however the physical projected aspect in this reality will remain until physical 'dissolution.'

 

 

 

 

First and foremost it seems to me that in enlightenment there must be light, perhaps even an explosion of light within.

 

Kind of. Please read what I stated above.

 

This light is presumably associated with unity with God/the Cosmos, and direct knowledge from this source.

 

 

There is no god when you reach the Source/Tao/Nirvana.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Gerard

[Orion]

I don't have a problem with referring to myself as awakened... it's not an egoistic remark, just a comment on my nature. I awakened through intense pain and suffering. A lot of people in new age circles talk about ego death or seek it, I've noticed, but they aren't yet aware that they are ego seeking its own suicide. Perhaps they are ego realizing that its own faux existence is causing suffering, and there is a more subtle vehicle directing them to their demise. They don't realize how painful that final letting go will be, where their own redundancy is realized. Ego death is a painful, painful, horrid process. It means the death of everything you've believed in, your family and friends, your society, your identity and entire world concept. When someone is ripe and experiences the level of torment I have in recent years, they either dissociate, become schizophrenic, or awaken. The psyche simply cannot handle it so it buckles -- or at least that's how it happened for me. The ego experiences such torment that it implodes in on itself, and you are only left with a basement-level stillness, or present awareness. I can't claim that everyone's experience of awakening is the same, and I've heard many stories about it over the years. I believe that in the context of suffering, all of these potential states are normal and natural, but awakening happens more rarely because there needs to be a predisposition.

 

It's true that this discussion is little more than verbal masturbation. Once you put awakening into words, the essence is already lost. What I wish to convey though is that it's an embodied experience which you feel on all levels. It's not an intellectual exercise -- mind doesn't get it. There are too many people in the world who are extremely adept at communicating the values, conditions, and aspects of awakening - that if they could just come up with a more clever wording to describe it, then they'll achieve it - but they themselves are not awakened. Such is Maya.

 

The transient requirement that an awakened person must be in this embodied state 24/7 and immune to the throes of life, is non-sensical. Whatever's happening, is happening. It's pure non-attachment. If you're trying to be an embodied awakeness, then you're already identifying with an ego level process again. The truth is that there is no trying. If right now you feel depressed as shit, then 'trying' to 'get back to' another state is attachment. Awakening means you are the non-attached witness to all that happens, even if you're being tortured to death. It makes no difference. There's no "you" in it, and you have no control. All of reality is just doing itself, and it never ends. You don't end because you never began. The event of 'trying' to achieve awakeness is already taking place in the presence of awakeness. You are awakeness reading the Buddha's account on how to awaken, or typing on the computer, or yelling at a telemarketer on the phone.

 

I have to come back to the adage that if you have an earnest desire to awaken and to know the truth, then it will eventually happen. It's all just emptiness doing itself anyway. If you can't figure it out, then don't worry about it... you're just a part of emptiness that thinks it's a "me". No big deal. Perhaps this earnestness creates the predisposition, or maybe a predisposition creates the earnestness -- I don't know. What I do know is that it's spontaneous. And yes it's true, it's not always permanent. This year I went through the most intense shit imaginable and somehow this time it stuck. There were a few years ago when I was sitting at a coffee shop watching the rain fall down, and something about the way everything outside was positioned really hit me. It felt like a "whoosh", right in my heart. It suddenly became clear just what it is I'm living in, if there's any "I" taking place at all. In that moment, ego becomes aware of its own redundancy, before disappearing. Eventually it returns, and you watch it, as the witness. You realize that it's just a component of the animal body... its survival mind. It has nothing to do with awakeness. You watch ego arise and dissolve all the time. You watch the ticker tape of mind go by. It's only when you identify with them that you forget you're awake. It's the difference between someone who wears a costume and knows their true identity, and someone who becomes the costume.

 

I've lived in a Buddhist monastery and received a lot of the teachings on awakening. I do not agree that it's the end of suffering. I find that I'm still just as prone to suffering, anger, hatred, etc... as I ever was; which is to say, the egoic and emotional bodies are capable of all kinds of absurdity. I often watch them with amusement, thinking, "Wow, my mind is really vulgar today. Interesting!" The only difference now is that I am constantly aware of the temporal nature of these experiences, through the witness or present awareness. There's no "me" in it. It's just what's happening. I don't know how else to explain it. It's not the loss of identity, but the realization of true identity. In other words, the full spectrum of human experience still happens, the difference is that it constantly sublimates into a oneness consciousness that is neither here nor there. No matter how much joy or sorrow is experienced, there is an eventual drawing back to centre, based on true identity.

 

I don't think you can look to books to define the experience or point the way to it. There's no formula, though they do make for interesting case studies I suppose. It's like broken telephone. The writings are sifted through centuries of filters, from original experiencers. Though who am I to say. Awakened people come in all shapes and sizes. I don't know how it works, and that's the honest truth. It just happens, and I had nothing to do with it. All I can say is that you know it when you see it, because it's a truth that's been with you all along. No matter how long you've been deluded into not noticing it, you'll recognize it when you see it. It can't be explained, and if you get it, no explanation is needed. Also, no book necessary. And if you become deluded again, there's nothing wrong with that either. It's all just what's happening.

 

The religious books that try to convey these experiences, I am wary of them. They are allegories for something that happens without pre-determined templates. I mean, do what you feel is right. If the earnestness is there you'll eventually break through, but it's definitely not a destination. It never ends.

 

Was awakening worth it? Can't say one way or the other. It's just what happened, and continues to happen. I can't take responsibility for it happening. It does contain limitless freedom, and it means being a permanent free fall through the unknown. It also means a fire that will consume you without end. Awakeness won't allow anything else to exist but it.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Orion

[Jetsun]

I don't have a problem with referring to myself as awakened... it's not an egoistic remark, just a comment on my nature. I awakened through intense pain and suffering. A lot of people in new age circles talk about ego death or seek it, I've noticed, but they aren't yet aware that they are ego seeking its own suicide. Perhaps they are ego realizing that its own faux existence is causing suffering, and there is a more subtle vehicle directing them to their demise. They don't realize how painful that final letting go will be, where their own redundancy is realized. Ego death is a painful, painful, horrid process. It means the death of everything you've believed in, your family and friends, your society, your identity and entire world concept. When someone is ripe and experiences the level of torment I have in recent years, they either dissociate, become schizophrenic, or awaken. The psyche simply cannot handle it so it buckles -- or at least that's how it happened for me. The ego experiences such torment that it implodes in on itself, and you are only left with a basement-level stillness, or present awareness. I can't claim that everyone's experience of awakening is the same, and I've heard many stories about it over the years. I believe that in the context of suffering, all of these potential states are normal and natural, but awakening happens more rarely because there needs to be a predisposition.

 

It's true that this discussion is little more than verbal masturbation. Once you put awakening into words, the essence is already lost. What I wish to convey though is that it's an embodied experience which you feel on all levels. It's not an intellectual exercise -- mind doesn't get it. There are too many people in the world who are extremely adept at communicating the values, conditions, and aspects of awakening - that if they could just come up with a more clever wording to describe it, then they'll achieve it - but they themselves are not awakened. Such is Maya.

 

The transient requirement that an awakened person must be in this embodied state 24/7 and immune to the throes of life, is non-sensical. Whatever's happening, is happening. It's pure non-attachment. If you're trying to be an embodied awakeness, then you're already identifying with an ego level process again. The truth is that there is no trying. If right now you feel depressed as shit, then 'trying' to 'get back to' another state is attachment. Awakening means you are the non-attached witness to all that happens, even if you're being tortured to death. It makes no difference. There's no "you" in it, and you have no control. All of reality is just doing itself, and it never ends. You don't end because you never began. The event of 'trying' to achieve awakeness is already taking place in the presence of awakeness. You are awakeness reading the Buddha's account on how to awaken, or typing on the computer, or yelling at a telemarketer on the phone.

 

I have to come back to the adage that if you have an earnest desire to awaken and to know the truth, then it will eventually happen. It's all just emptiness doing itself anyway. If you can't figure it out, then don't worry about it... you're just a part of emptiness that thinks it's a "me". No big deal. Perhaps this earnestness creates the predisposition, or maybe a predisposition creates the earnestness -- I don't know. What I do know is that it's spontaneous. And yes it's true, it's not always permanent. This year I went through the most intense shit imaginable and somehow this time it stuck. There were a few years ago when I was sitting at a coffee shop watching the rain fall down, and something about the way everything outside was positioned really hit me. It felt like a "whoosh", right in my heart. It suddenly became clear just what it is I'm living in, if there's any "I" taking place at all. In that moment, ego becomes aware of its own redundancy, before disappearing. Eventually it returns, and you watch it, as the witness. You realize that it's just a component of the animal body... its survival mind. It has nothing to do with awakeness. You watch ego arise and dissolve all the time. You watch the ticker tape of mind go by. It's only when you identify with them that you forget you're awake. It's the difference between someone who wears a costume and knows their true identity, and someone who becomes the costume.

 

I've lived in a Buddhist monastery and received a lot of the teachings on awakening. I do not agree that it's the end of suffering. I find that I'm still just as prone to suffering, anger, hatred, etc... as I ever was; which is to say, the egoic and emotional bodies are capable of all kinds of absurdity. I often watch them with amusement, thinking, "Wow, my mind is really vulgar today. Interesting!" The only difference now is that I am constantly aware of the temporal nature of these experiences, through the witness or present awareness. There's no "me" in it. It's just what's happening. I don't know how else to explain it. It's not the loss of identity, but the realization of true identity. In other words, the full spectrum of human experience still happens, the difference is that it constantly sublimates into a oneness consciousness that is neither here nor there. No matter how much joy or sorrow is experienced, there is an eventual drawing back to centre, based on true identity.

 

I don't think you can look to books to define the experience or point the way to it. There's no formula, though they do make for interesting case studies I suppose. It's like broken telephone. The writings are sifted through centuries of filters, from original experiencers. Though who am I to say. Awakened people come in all shapes and sizes. I don't know how it works, and that's the honest truth. It just happens, and I had nothing to do with it. All I can say is that you know it when you see it, because it's a truth that's been with you all along. No matter how long you've been deluded into not noticing it, you'll recognize it when you see it. It can't be explained, and if you get it, no explanation is needed. Also, no book necessary. And if you become deluded again, there's nothing wrong with that either. It's all just what's happening.

 

The religious books that try to convey these experiences, I am wary of them. They are allegories for something that happens without pre-determined templates. I mean, do what you feel is right. If the earnestness is there you'll eventually break through, but it's definitely not a destination. It never ends.

 

Was awakening worth it? Can't say one way or the other. It's just what happened, and continues to happen. I can't take responsibility for it happening. It does contain limitless freedom, and it means being a permanent free fall through the unknown. It also means a fire that will consume you without end. Awakeness won't allow anything else to exist but it.

 

Wow a genuine post.

 

I will ask you one question though: What is it that wakes up?

[C T]

In Vajrayana, practitioners are encouraged to recognise, train, and then stabilise their already-awakened nature. Its not a process of peeling off layers of delusion; its more a process of gaining stability in recognition, and the quickest way to attain that is to strengthen bodhicitta via the consistent practice of shamatha and vipassana, coupled with altruistic action (emulating the enlightened qualities of preceptors, ie buddhas and bodhisattvas) by keeping mindful attention to conduct of body, speech and mind. The layers will then fall away naturally and effortlessly. 

 

In the West the tendency to become too analytical of the intricacies of awakening contribute to exertions of enormous effort, often accompanied by strife, heartaches and disappointment due to the emotional strings often attached to such analysis. Such analytical habits are foreign to Easterners, and they find it hard to understand why the West have this habit of making things more complex - if only they learn to adopt and internalise the basic view of seeing phenomena as empty of self, impermanent, and ultimately unsatisfactory, then the question of there being a self that awakens becomes completely meaningless, and therefore nullifies the necessity to mull over such an illusory notion, and instead use the time to do something useful to gain stability in recognising the intrinsic nature of the Great Perfection. 

[3bob]

Without the true Self (which is the true operater of aspects of mind) all is, "Vanity of vanities"  and "empty" as in being meaningless without joy, freedom of being, or dharmic law and purpose.

Edited September 20, 2015 by 3bob

[3bob]

I'd also say that all of the foolish talk about instances of the spoken or written word not having any real truth or power to them is nothing more than baloney... for the spoken and written word coming from and through dharma aligned beings and or elements does have power and truth to it, not unlike that which a true mantra or a spiritual song has - being that same are in intimate connection with and an emanation of Truth and power, with "Om" being an excellent example of the root sound and luminous light within all beings.

[manitou]

Was awakening worth it? Can't say one way or the other. It's just what happened, and continues to happen. 

 

 

Beautiful post, Orion.  A breath of fresh air.

 

This is what I've discovered too.  Is that is just happened, and continues to happen.  It's a process, not a destination.  Once the Oneness with all things is discovered, felt, and experienced - then it's a lifetime of dealing with the ramifications of that, with the further development of that reality within our lives.

[3bob]

correction for Gerard:  There is - no mind definable God - when reaching enlightenment beyond mind  - for such a definition by mind, which itself is dualistic in nature can not circumscribe "God" as either existing or not existing per such a tool as the "mind". 

Edited September 20, 2015 by 3bob

[Orion]

Wow a genuine post.

 

I will ask you one question though: What is it that wakes up?

 

It's better to ask... what is let go of or dissolves which makes innate awakeness apparent?

 

Put another way: you're already living your enlightened life, right now. What makes you not see it?

Edited September 20, 2015 by Orion

[Orion]

I'd also say that all of the foolish talk about instances of the spoken or written word not having any real truth or power to them is nothing more than baloney... for the spoken and written word coming from and through dharma aligned beings and or elements does have power and truth to it, not unlike that which a true mantra or a spiritual song has - being that same are in intimate connection with and an emanation of Truth and power, with "Om" being an excellent example of the root sound and luminous light within all beings.

 

 

It depends on the person and their spontaneous route to awakening. Being in the presence of an awakened person, and their teachings, can definitely incite awakening and give you something to shoot for. So can reading books. For me it didn't work that way. I read books and listened to gurus for years, and maybe they helped plant the seed, I don't know; but it was ultimately the intense events in my own life which triggered it. It happened at a time when I wasn't receiving spiritual teachings or hanging around high level people. In fact, it happened in the most down and out place imaginable.

 

There's no right or wrong way. You can follow prescriptions if you want. Free will means an unlimited exploration of different potentials. It's just not possible to predict if and when it will happen.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Orion

[Bindi]

It's better to ask... what is let go of or dissolves which makes innate awakeness apparent?

 

Put another way: you're already living your enlightened life, right now. What makes you not see it?

Do you distinguish between awakeness and enlightenment? Or do you see only endless awakeness, and enlightenment no more than a fantasy?

[Bindi]

They're just words. Placeholders for an experience that cannot be defined semantically, to be honest.

 

You could also call it oneness, true nature, emptiness, god, infinity, the universe, the divine.

With the concept of enlightenment, I am drawn by the very structure of the word to the concept of light. As Gerard posted previously:

 

The end of your samsaric journey. It is manifested as an large opening of light in your crown chakra, you exit and then that's it the end...however the physical projected aspect in this reality will remain until physical 'dissolution.'

 

 

Semantics, according to the American heritage dictionary, is the scientific or philosophical study of the relations of words and their meanings: Semantics is commonly used to refer to a trivial point or distinction that revolves around mere words rather than significant issues.

 

But if you consider enlightenment to be primarily associated with light and the crown chakra, which is very specific (and so far undisputed), it seems beyond semantics to ask whether you believe this to be separate from awakening, or merely fantasy.

 

Just concentrate on this one aspect, light in the crown chakra. This to my knowledge is not considered to be part of awakening, or part of the experience of being in the moment, or empty.

 

And this light would be unmissable, it wouldn't blend in with the awakened experience. It would be exceptional.