The face of a guru - kindness versus emptiness

[Perceiver]

After looking at some gurus' faces, I have come to notice something.

 

It seems to me that we have two spiritual currents which must manifest in our consciousness if we are to be fully enlightened. One is kindness, and the other is emptiness - or clarity.

 

I believe this can be seen in people's faces: Emptiness is the degree to which you have presence in the now; the degree to which you are conscious of your thoughts, emotions and intuitions. It is your ability to be mentally proactive, rather than reactive. People with emptiness find it hard to be irritated, or swept away by irrational impulses. It is evidenced by a relaxed and intelligent look on one's face (in my opinion).

 

Kindness is the degree to which you have moved towards love and selflessness, instead of lust, hate or anger. It is your tendency to seek relationships of mutual love and respect, instead of impersonal lust. It is the natural ability to see the quiet potential of human beings, and to like them for what they are. It is the ability to give every person a chance before judging them. It is evidenced by a friendly open and non-judging face - and a warm and sympathetic smile.

 

I am thinking of adding a third spiritual current: Wonder. The ability to find the manifest reality wonderful, mysterious, intriguing - endlessly fascinating. This is what adds a certain energy and a secret smile to the face of the enlightened one.

 

Personally I see myself being heavier on emptiness than kindness.

 

David Verdesi, Adi Da and Muktananda. In their faces I see emptiness, but not kindness.

 

Sadhguru, Kalu Rinpoche and Gopi Krishna. In their faces I see emptiness as well as kindness.

 

I know this is going to be controversial, especially since it's based on personal opinion only. But would love to hear your thoughts.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Perceiver

[Stosh]

I don't think a face can tell you that , so I figure If you tell one your problems, and they laugh and joke about it with you , they're empty , , and if they're serious and try to be helpful , they're kind. 

[scribe]

Reminds me of a nun's description of "the essence of Buddhist practice" in Bill Porter's 'Road to Heaven':

 

"Two months later, back in Taiwan, I received the sheet of paper in the mail with four words: goodwill, compassion, joy, detachment."

 

To many, compassion is a form of investment - commonly we want something in return, and at the very least we want something to "do well" thanks to our actions. Holding compassion alongside detachment seems like a contradiction, but also a challenge. Is it necessary to be empty and clear in order to be kind?

[Stosh]

Reminds me of a nun's description of "the essence of Buddhist practice" in Bill Porter's 'Road to Heaven':

 

"Two months later, back in Taiwan, I received the sheet of paper in the mail with four words: goodwill, compassion, joy, detachment."

 

To many, compassion is a form of investment - commonly we want something in return, and at the very least we want something to "do well" thanks to our actions. Holding compassion alongside detachment seems like a contradiction, but also a challenge. Is it necessary to be empty and clear in order to be kind?

Did you aim that anyone in particular? If not at me, Ill just let someone else respond. ....but I personally wouldn't link the two inextricably for the reason you said.

[Perceiver]

Hmmm. I think that emptiness is more fundamental than "kindness" but I think that "kindness" is more necessary than emptiness. "Wonder", I could give or take. I tend to see it as more of a byproduct of the interplay of the previous two. If you're empty, then you won't cling to a certain way of viewing things; if you're kind, then you will orient yourself toward the positive; if you do both, you will probably experience more moments of wonder.

 

Kindness without emptiness can lead to naivety. One would lack wisdom, insight and pursue the wrong ideas.

 

Emptiness without kindness can lead to the mad genius: The master puppeteer who knows how to pull all the strings, but does so mainly for the benefit of himself, and at the expense of others.

 

Both are IMO necessary. I don't think we disagree really, and I like especially the last part of your quote above .

[Bud Jetsun]

A 'gurus' function is simply to take ones misconceptions of reality and shatter them. 

 

If they are coddling you, they are not a guru, the process of having the realty model to which one clings torn to shreds is unpleasant by nature. 

 

A guru doesn't need a smiling face and poetic words to do this.  A guru does not need a face or words of any kind. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Perceiver]

He doesnt need it, no. But wouldnt you say that an enlightened and purified mind would show on a person's face?

[Jetsun]

A 'gurus' function is simply to take ones misconceptions of reality and shatter them. 

 

If they are coddling you, they are not a guru, the process of having the realty model to which one clings torn to shreds is unpleasant by nature. 

 

A guru doesn't need a smiling face and poetic words to do this.  A guru does not need a face or words of any kind. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

That may be true, but people are generally hyper sensitive to any sort of force and manipulation so a Guru has to find a way through to a person without triggering their defences and the best way to do that is with love. 

[manitou]

Holding compassion alongside detachment seems like a contradiction, but also a challenge. Is it necessary to be empty and clear in order to be kind?

 

 

It seems to me that kindness is a by-product of Realization of Oneness.  when we realize that we are not separate from each other at all - that we are all the same Body, the same Mind, merely manifesting through 'separate' filters and forms, it is not difficult at all to be kind to anyone - even if they're not being kind to you.  Love ceases being conditional.  It doesn't matter if the other person acts kind in accordance with your action.  When our mindset is in the One, there is no separation between you and them.  Just the illusion of separation, which isn't real at all.

Edited September 16, 2015 by manitou

[manitou]

He doesnt need it, no. But wouldnt you say that an enlightened and purified mind would show on a person's face?

 

Interesting question, lol.  My guess is that it would depend on how many years he was unenlightened and perhaps mean-spirited.  Surely those creases and wrinkles wouldn't go away overnight.

[Karl]

That may be true, but people are generally hyper sensitive to any sort of force and manipulation so a Guru has to find a way through to a person without triggering their defences and the best way to do that is with love. 

 

I have another word for that which certainly isn't kind. 'Without triggering their defences' is precisely what con men are about.

[Karl]

What is 'kindness' ? It is just another kind of human action, the application of ones reasoning and moral code with the excessive of choice. How one judges cruelty and kindness is unique to each observer. Giving money to a beggar might be kind, but perhaps that small amount of money actually binds the beggar to continual dependence.

[Jetsun]

I have another word for that which certainly isn't kind. 'Without triggering their defences' is precisely what con men are about.

 

Its also what anything psychotherapeutic or any sort of genuine intimacy is about

[Karl]

Its also what anything psychotherapeutic or any sort of genuine intimacy is about

 

voluntarily abdicating the use of our defences is very different to 'by passing defences'. In one case that's a voluntary action in the other it is pre-meditated violence by the use of distraction.

 

NLP techniques, Hynotism and Non Violent communication use 'kindness', distraction, subversion and rhetoric to bypass a persons defences. It's a deplorable thing-I'm both an NLP practitioner and basic level hypnotist and stopped using the techniques once I discovered what I was actually doing. Even when meant for good, it is dishonest and creates all sorts of dependence.

[Perceiver]

What is 'kindness' ? It is just another kind of human action, the application of ones reasoning and moral code with the excessive of choice. How one judges cruelty and kindness is unique to each observer. Giving money to a beggar might be kind, but perhaps that small amount of money actually binds the beggar to continual dependence.

 

Kindness is not necessarily tied to any specific actions, or political behaviour. If thus defined we would all be locked in a debate about which specific action, which policy, which idea etc would be "the most kind". And that would get us nowhere because reality is so hypercomplex that arguments can be made for both sides.

 

In my opinion kindness is tied to the state you experience internally and project externally: Do you meet people with an open mind, do you realize that your actions have an impact on other people, are you capable of selflessness? And so on.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Perceiver

[Perceiver]

Emptiness is experienced as a calm confidence about yourself, life and the manifest world. The absence of fear of death. A still ocean inside. The ability to understand why things happen the way the happen.

 

Kindness can be experienced as a warm fuzzy feeling in your chest, a feeling of emotional pleasantness. A feeling that you love the world and that love is inscribed in the fabric of reality. It is a very pleasant feeling, and people will notice it.

 

Wonder is experienced as if the world has a touch of magic to it - as if everything is somehow perfect, yet somehow mysterious and endlessly fascinating. You will feel that all of your movements are fluid and perfect, and that every time you turn a corner on the street there's always something new and magical manifesting there. It adds a mysterious energy to life, and makes it a voyage of perfect discovery.

[Jetsun]

voluntarily abdicating the use of our defences is very different to 'by passing defences'. In one case that's a voluntary action in the other it is pre-meditated violence by the use of distraction. NLP techniques, Hynotism and Non Violent communication use 'kindness', distraction, subversion and rhetoric to bypass a persons defences. It's a deplorable thing-I'm both an NLP practitioner and basic level hypnotist and stopped using the techniques once I discovered what I was actually doing. Even when meant for good, it is dishonest and creates all sorts of dependence.

Well we were talking in the context of a Guru student relationship. It's true there are all sorts of people who set out to manipulate us for negative reasons by bypassing our defences, such as advertising and sales people. But the Guru hopefully does it for positive reasons, such as helping the student to grow and recognise their potential, at least traditionally the student signs up for that arrangement and agrees to it on some level. And as far as I can see that those who do it with love and compassion are far more successful than those who don't.

[Karl]

Well we were talking in the context of a Guru student relationship. It's true there are all sorts of people who set out to manipulate us for negative reasons by bypassing our defences, such as advertising and sales people. But the Guru hopefully does it for positive reasons, such as helping the student to grow and recognise their potential, at least traditionally the student signs up for that arrangement and agrees to it on some level. And as far as I can see that those who do it with love and compassion are far more successful than those who don't.

 

If you can find a guru that does it for the purposes that you state. My role was to overcome limiting beliefs to help people achieve their goal, or overcome some issue. I was extremely dedicated to that purpose. It's very noble from one perspective, but it isn't altruism but only selfishness of gaining some satisfaction out of the process. This will always be the case. No one is immune.

[Karl]

Kindness is not necessarily tied to any specific actions, or political behaviour. If thus defined we would all be locked in a debate about which specific action, which policy, which idea etc would be "the most kind". And that would get us nowhere because reality is so hypercomplex that arguments can be made for both sides.

 

In my opinion kindness is tied to the state you experience internally and project externally: Do you meet people with an open mind, do you realize that your actions have an impact on other people, are you capable of selflessness? And so on.

 

It's a thorny subject.

 

You shouldn't really meet anyone with an empty mind as that is naive and dangerous. I want my tactical defences on full alert and then judge the other persons actions over a period of time. I also see no sign of selflessness, it's an oxymoron. Everyone is selfish, but actions can still benefit other people.

 

Take a trade transaction: I have bread and you have fish. I want fish and so I selfishly trade the bread that I don't value as highly, for the fish that you don't value as highly as my bread. Now we have both gained by the transaction. If you equate wealth as the personal subjective value we place on things, then it's clear that both of us are richer as a result of a totally selfish trade. That can be applied to everything else and it doesn't mean it has to be a material transaction. We could swap information, or even something charitable where in one of us values the thing we give less than the satisfaction we feel by giving it.

[scribe]

Did you aim that anyone in particular? If not at me, Ill just let someone else respond. ....but I personally wouldn't link the two inextricably for the reason you said.

 

 

To the thread in general, and the apparent dichotomy between caring for someone (kindness) and not focusing on them (emptiness).

 

I like to imagine a fine line where laughing with someone blurs with laughing "at" them, for example. (For linguistic convenience. Being laughed at is usually an interpretation of the subject.)

 

For a student, this is especially important. There are times when you need to be supported, and times when you need to realise not to treat yourself too seriously. Learning comes from knowing when to apply either.

[manitou]

What is 'kindness' ? It is just another kind of human action, the application of ones reasoning and moral code with the excessive of choice. How one judges cruelty and kindness is unique to each observer. Giving money to a beggar might be kind, but perhaps that small amount of money actually binds the beggar to continual dependence.

 

 

I think instead that it's what's left over after the undesirable has been removed from within.  It springs forth naturally, it's not a product of reason.

[Karl]

I think instead that it's what's left over after the undesirable has been removed from within.  It springs forth naturally, it's not a product of reason.

 

So you don't think at all prior to an action of kindness manitou ? How would you judge it an act of kindness or know what you should do fir the best effect. You have to reason. It is choice, free will and reason which makes the moral judgement work.

 

Unless of course you are sleep walking or being remote controlled :-)

[Tibetan_Ice]

So you don't think at all prior to an action of kindness manitou ? How would you judge it an act of kindness or know what you should do fir the best effect. You have to reason. It is choice, free will and reason which makes the moral judgement work. Unless of course you are sleep walking or being remote controlled :-)

You just ask your heart. No reason or conceptualization needed. Simple.

[Karl]

You just ask your heart. No reason or conceptualization needed. Simple.

 

"Ask?" How will you ask if you are not reasoning ?

It doesn't matter if you call it heart, a watermelon or dusty bin, the act of asking and awaiting a decision is reasoning.

[Stosh]

....and the heart replied, 'Youre relying on others to stroke your ego, so you can feel good about yourself. Without them you are in limbo, ungrounded and meaning nothing. The only things you are sure of , are are desires and pain and existing..So these will guide you , since there is nothing else.'

...... And the mind was beaten.

C.A. Pope

Edited September 17, 2015 by Stosh