The face of a guru - kindness versus emptiness

[manitou]

So you don't think at all prior to an action of kindness manitou ? How would you judge it an act of kindness or know what you should do fir the best effect. You have to reason. It is choice, free will and reason which makes the moral judgement work. Unless of course you are sleep walking or being remote controlled :-)

 

 

Karl, if you're walking around in a state of Oneness, there isn't any thinking involved.  Just an encounter of love and no judgment of good or bad.  One doesn't need to think about 'being kind'; it is already there in our nature.

 

If I'm not in a state of Oneness, if I've fallen into the illusion of forms - then it is just as you say.

[manitou]

....and the heart replied, 'Youre relying on others to stroke your ego, so you can feel good about yourself. Without them you are in limbo, ungrounded and meaning nothing. The only things you are sure of , are are desires and pain and existing..So these will guide you , since there is nothing else.'

...... And the mind was beaten.

C.A. Pope

 

Not sure Pope was an enlightened one, from this passage....

[thelerner]

I forget who this quote is from:

 

Act on the impulse of kindness immediately,

On cruel impulses, wait, at least a day and reconsider many times.

 

When it comes to kindness, screw looking into great philosophers, karmic and economic conditions.  Smile and Do.  To kill spontaneity is make ourselves less alive. 

[Karl]

Karl, if you're walking around in a state of Oneness, there isn't any thinking involved.  Just an encounter of love and no judgment of good or bad.  One doesn't need to think about 'being kind'; it is already there in our nature.

 

If I'm not in a state of Oneness, if I've fallen into the illusion of forms - then it is just as you say.

 

So your state of 'oneness' ( by which I assume you mean unity) is not permanent.

Then you must have made a decision is having to be made which requires reason. This decision was prior to the decision to act according to your nature.

 

See where I'm going with this ? I can go out of the door and decide that I will do a kind thing for the first thing that strikes me. That I will be in unity by doing that action.

[Stosh]

Not sure Pope was an enlightened one, from this passage....

But it doesn't appear anything was said you can find fault with..

[Tibetan_Ice]

"Ask?" How will you ask if you are not reasoning ? It doesn't matter if you call it heart, a watermelon or dusty bin, the act of asking and awaiting a decision is reasoning.

You are obviously not familiar with knowing without conceptualizing.

It is beyond the mind.

It is what samadhi is about.

It is what spiritualism is about.

Beyond ideas and thoughts.

Your problem is that you think logic and reason are the centre of the universe when in fact they are but an insignificant part of your makeup.

What do you think ultimate boddhicitta is?

[manitou]

....and the heart replied, 'Youre relying on others to stroke your ego, so you can feel good about yourself. Without them you are in limbo, ungrounded and meaning nothing. The only things you are sure of , are are desires and pain and existing..So these will guide you , since there is nothing else.'

...... And the mind was beaten.

C.A. Pope

 

Think of the 3 Treasures.  (Yutang) 

 

Never be the first

Never Too Much

Love

 

We all have the capacity to be the Sage - it is, after all, within us.  To have these three treasures ingrained into our behavior, to see it as a perfect model for behavior - we can choose to align ourselves as much or as little as we see fit.  There are some folks on the Bums, myself included, who takes inner cultivation very seriously.  These are ideals that we set for our own behavior.  These ideals extend to each and every person on the face of the planet, hence the Love.  And I pick up road kill, for crying out loud, and carry it off to the side of the road.  I don't care what I'm wearing or the fact that I have bare hands.  I do it to honor the dead raccoon or dear or squirrel - and to put it back into the chain of life by allowing the vultures and crows to get to it.  This too is love, the love of the All of Life. 

 

Staying in the Now, at risk of sounding trite, is the only way to feel, experience, and convey this kind of Love of Life.  It can't be done if there is inner dialogue of yesterday or tomorrow.  It must be done each and every moment, realizing the unfolding of new forms in front of us constantly; with the curiosity and innocence of a child.

 

We are all capable of this.  It does require doing an awful lot of work to get the ego under your command, so you are not reacting as a result of its stimuli.  This is where the self-cultivation comes in.  It does require the ability to Be, wherever we are, in a state of no-thought.  We are all capable of this too; most of us have been meditating for years around here.

 

Of course, Karl, I admit that I'm not there all the time.  Are you?  I know that it's becoming more and more natural for me to be in that state, regardless of whether I am home or in town.  The gaps between thoughts are becoming longer and longer.  This is a reward that has been a long time in coming for me, and I am realizing for perhaps the first time in my life what it means to flatten out the 'landscape of my heart'.

 

Stosh, my first few paragraphs were headed your way, re: the motivation being stroking my own ego.  It no longer is, that I can see.  Course it could always be I've got a big log in my eye.

[Stosh]

Whatever else may be true, or untrue our subjective, Manitou, needs to wait, if its going to get proper consideration, each thing in its own context and time.  

Whats wrong with what it does say? If you think its false somehow go ahead and clearly say where it goes wrong. Thats fair and fine. But I cant see where Yutang or roadkill or meditation has anything to do with it.

It's this log in my eye, you see.  

[Bud Jetsun]

Of course, Karl, I admit that I'm not there all the time.  Are you?  I know that it's becoming more and more natural for me to be in that state, regardless of whether I am home or in town.  The gaps between thoughts are becoming longer and longer.  This is a reward that has been a long time in coming for me, and I am realizing for perhaps the first time in my life what it means to flatten out the 'landscape of my heart'.

 

 

It's such a liberating beautiful moment when one-pointed awareness of Now (reality) becomes something you can relax into comfortably like a nice fitting pair of jeans, rather than feeling like some extraordinary feat of concentration and mental focus/struggle.   If one actually chooses to appreciate it for what it is, life seems so impossibly good and beautiful and wonder-filled, the challenge of it seems mostly to be in dealing with the salty accumulation of tears of joy in ones beard. 

 

If the rest of this fleeting life-experience-string is spent working towards some state of being that is 'better' than this moment of Now today sitting here typing this is entirely spent in vain with never having another break-through realization or improvement in mindful awareness or deepening of bliss etc, it doesn't matter anymore.   The urges for Now to be better than Now are faded and crumbling.  Now is already beyond what I had imagined the "kingdom of Heaven" (or your linguistic bias of choice) could be.   

 

Love is the root of the thought, kindness is a descriptor for the physical manifestations of Love rooted thoughts.  When you see a face that looks kind, it is because they are choosing Love rooted thought.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Arya]

Does emptiness correspond to equanimity/serenity i.e. neither pain nor pleasure, just bare perception of phenomenon? Because the Buddha never mentioned emptiness! Please confirm this.

[manitou]

Whatever else may be true, or untrue our subjective, Manitou, needs to wait, if its going to get proper consideration, each thing in its own context and time.  

Whats wrong with what it does say? If you think its false somehow go ahead and clearly say where it goes wrong. Thats fair and fine. But I cant see where Yutang or roadkill or meditation has anything to do with it.

It's this log in my eye, you see.

 

Well then neither one of us can see the forest through the trees.

 

There is something beyond ego and logic and feeling good about yourself, needing strokes.  The author of the saying doesn't seem to understand that.  That is because his mind has not yet expanded to the degree that is required to understand that.  That type of understanding does not sit at the end of knowledge, it sits at the end of knowledge.

 

Here's why ego doesn't apply, when you can express yourself within the consciousness of the one:

 

Think of a heart monitor machine, the old kind where the tape printed the line and the peaks of the heartbeat.  Hold out about a 3 foot section of the tape.  All the peaks (the tall ones are adults, the little blips are kids) are the pointed structure of our ego, holding us up and making us into a blip.  Everything below the line is the All.  We are part of the All.  We are All the All.  For me, a blip, to look over at you, also a blip, and to think that we are separate is ridiculous, isn't it?  We are not separate at all.

 

This is why ego is not pertinent within the framework of the One.  For me to hurt you is to hurt me.  Literally.

 

Any more than that, Stosh - ask yer folks, lol.

[dawei]

After looking at some gurus' faces, I have come to notice something.

 

It seems to me that we have two spiritual currents which must manifest in our consciousness if we are to be fully enlightened. One is kindness, and the other is emptiness - or clarity.

 

I believe this can be seen in people's faces: Emptiness is the degree to which you have presence in the now; the degree to which you are conscious of your thoughts, emotions and intuitions. It is your ability to be mentally proactive, rather than reactive. People with emptiness find it hard to be irritated, or swept away by irrational impulses. It is evidenced by a relaxed and intelligent look on one's face (in my opinion).

 

Kindness is the degree to which you have moved towards love and selflessness, instead of lust, hate or anger. It is your tendency to seek relationships of mutual love and respect, instead of impersonal lust. It is the natural ability to see the quiet potential of human beings, and to like them for what they are. It is the ability to give every person a chance before judging them. It is evidenced by a friendly open and non-judging face - and a warm and sympathetic smile.

 

I am thinking of adding a third spiritual current: Wonder. The ability to find the manifest reality wonderful, mysterious, intriguing - endlessly fascinating. This is what adds a certain energy and a secret smile to the face of the enlightened one.

 

Interesting topic and 'perception'... namesake does you well

 

the topic is 'guru' but I wanted to say I've seen some non-guru(s) reflect better than guru(s)... that is another topic

 

There are really too many layers and levels among all things; our desire to compartmentalize and distinguish is a good thing within the world of senses... I know it goes beyond that at times.  But I'll try to stay on topic.

 

The Guru is at a level... that is the transmitter/conduit; The receiver is also at a level and that varies much more than the Guru(s), IMO.  So we already have a 2 dimensional issue which goes to a 3rd level when we introduce the interaction/exchange, and a 4th level when we add in the perception/awareness... it just keeps building up to higher levels of variation.

 

I guess this is what I am saying... we should not be so concerned about the level of sender or receiver but find what resonates. There are too many variations.  I'll give an example.

 

My Medical Qigong master was quite powerful but there was a mutual [female] friend who was gifted from youth in energy... I could connect with her and get better relief on some issues; on others, the master could exact immediate relief.

 

So there is a level of exchange, connection, and integration... and in some cases there is direct transmission. 

 

I personally don't care kindness or emptiness but matters is whether I receive/connect.  If I do, then that is the level I am at and I should let flower and seed. 

 

We love to compare levels, people, gurus, and experience... and let's continue along that line.. but let's also realize that the next step is that it doesn't matter; what matters is your current experience.  

[Stosh]

Ok fine, you see yourself as part of a great whole, .. without me contesting that,, I pose that you have motivations, do you not? You execute actions , yes? Whatever the blip in the whole that you feel you are, ,you are acting in the interest of the whole which includes you, toward portions of the whole which I Stosh wouldnt call Manitou,,, and you consider Manitou\ whole therefore are benefitted, beyond what Manitou/ whole would have experienced ,otherwise. So Manitou cannot be kind to someone else, only to Manitou\whole,, Is that a fair recap? of your point.

Mine goes this a way..,

You drive to work and see a smashed raccoon. Which would Manitou consider to be closest to true ? A ,You are saddened or deflated.... B, you are more elated and joyous , .C, You are not emotionally budged about the raccoons fate. ,,D .. something else to be described.

 

 

 

[Karl]

Well then neither one of us can see the forest through the trees.

 

There is something beyond ego and logic and feeling good about yourself, needing strokes.  The author of the saying doesn't seem to understand that.  That is because his mind has not yet expanded to the degree that is required to understand that.  That type of understanding does not sit at the end of knowledge, it sits at the end of knowledge.

 

Here's why ego doesn't apply, when you can express yourself within the consciousness of the one:

 

Think of a heart monitor machine, the old kind where the tape printed the line and the peaks of the heartbeat.  Hold out about a 3 foot section of the tape.  All the peaks (the tall ones are adults, the little blips are kids) are the pointed structure of our ego, holding us up and making us into a blip.  Everything below the line is the All.  We are part of the All.  We are All the All.  For me, a blip, to look over at you, also a blip, and to think that we are separate is ridiculous, isn't it?  We are not separate at all.

 

This is why ego is not pertinent within the framework of the One.  For me to hurt you is to hurt me.  Literally.

 

Any more than that, Stosh - ask yer folks, lol.

 

You aren't going to like this, but you should read it.

 

 

http://dbgak.net/Presentation.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

[manitou]

You aren't going to like this, but you should read it. http://dbgak.net/Presentation.pdf Sent from my iPad

 

Yes, that describes awareness on a subjective/objective perceptive, but it doesn't take into account the mystical Beyond.  I see it as a pretty left brain account of awareness.

 

Ok fine, you see yourself as part of a great whole, .. without me contesting that,, I pose that you have motivations, do you not? You execute actions , yes? Whatever the blip in the whole that you feel you are, ,you are acting in the interest of the whole which includes you, toward portions of the whole which I Stosh wouldnt call Manitou,,, and you consider Manitou\ whole therefore are benefitted, beyond what Manitou/ whole would have experienced ,otherwise. So Manitou cannot be kind to someone else, only to Manitou\whole,, Is that a fair recap? of your point. Mine goes this a way.., You drive to work and see a smashed raccoon. Which would Manitou consider to be closest to true ? A ,You are saddened or deflated.... B, you are more elated and joyous , .C, You are not emotionally budged about the raccoons fate. ,,D .. something else to be described.

 

 

D

 

I have no emotions at all when I see the raccoon.  There is just an urge inside me to honor that life, to do a little swirl in the air over the raccoon with my finger to facilitate the onward movement of that soul, and to remove the raccoon from the middle of the street so it can go back into the stream of life.  It's also helpful to motorists who may be driving that way so they don't break an axle.  It's just an act of kindness overall, Stosh - it's a love of life that's a little unusual - I'm sure it makes people gag to see me pick up a raccoon with its guts hanging down.  But a love of life it is, a non-judgmental way of approaching something very seemingly repulsive and even rotting, and showing love to even that.  To be non-judgmental about the smell, about the blood on my hands.  Not to be freaked out.  To stay in the now, not worrying about the reactions of passing motorists or the possible maggots I'm touching under the animal.  It's love, that's all.  And I do feel love for life when I'm doing it.

 

Actually, I do see a motivation on this.  It is my own path of impeccability, a remnant of the Castaneda walk. It's self-tracking.  It's doing what's in front of me to the best of my ability, without judgment.  It's being true to the development of my own soul.  But I think it also has to do with using Death as an advisor - to be acquainted fully with death so that it is not a fear to me.  Our society hides death behind closed doors.

 

The 'being part of the whole and realizing it constantly' (which is the ultimate goal in my case) is a Practice.  The more I 'practice' this, the less I have to practice it - it becomes the default mindset after a time of practice.  Stash, it is merely a way of loving my brother as myself - to Walk our Talk - to realize that that person standing in line ahead of me is One And The Same as I.  It is a choice, this mindset.  I could just as easily choose to think My Ego is all I am, and that I am constantly at odds with Your Ego or anyone else I come across.  But this is a stance that ultimately ends in separation, enmity, war.  The Awakened Man will realize Who he Is, and of What he is a Part.

Edited September 18, 2015 by manitou

[Stosh]

Yes, that describes awareness on a subjective/objective perceptive, but it doesn't take into account the mystical Beyond.  I see it as a pretty left brain account of awareness.

 

 

 

D

 

I have no emotions at all when I see the raccoon.  There is just an urge inside me to honor that life, to do a little swirl in the air over the raccoon with my finger to facilitate the onward movement of that soul, and to remove the raccoon from the middle of the street so it can go back into the stream of life.  It's also helpful to motorists who may be driving that way so they don't break an axle.  It's just an act of kindness overall, Stosh - it's a love of life that's a little unusual - I'm sure it makes people gag to see me pick up a raccoon with its guts hanging down.  But a love of life it is, a non-judgmental way of approaching something very seemingly repulsive and even rotting, and showing love to even that.  To be non-judgmental about the smell, about the blood on my hands.  Not to be freaked out.  To stay in the now, not worrying about the reactions of passing motorists or the possible maggots I'm touching under the animal.  It's love, that's all.  And I do feel love for life when I'm doing it.

 

Actually, I do see a motivation on this.  It is my own path of impeccability, a remnant of the Castaneda walk. It's self-tracking.  It's doing what's in front of me to the best of my ability, without judgment.  It's being true to the development of my own soul.  But I think it also has to do with using Death as an advisor - to be acquainted fully with death so that it is not a fear to me.  Our society hides death behind closed doors.

 

The 'being part of the whole and realizing it constantly' (which is the ultimate goal in my case) is a Practice.  The more I 'practice' this, the less I have to practice it - it becomes the default mindset after a time of practice.  Stash, it is merely a way of loving my brother as myself - to Walk our Talk - to realize that that person standing in line ahead of me is One And The Same as I.  It is a choice, this mindset.  I could just as easily choose to think My Ego is all I am, and that I am constantly at odds with Your Ego or anyone else I come across.  But this is a stance that ultimately ends in separation, enmity, war.  The Awakened Man will realize Who he Is, and of What he is a Part.

Well I gotta say its a good rebuttal.

[manitou]

Well I gotta say its a good rebuttal.

 

That means a lot to me coming from you.  You have the master brain of a Grand Inquisitor (don't worry, lol - I do too, I just don't use it) and your challenges are always great fodder for conversation on these threads.  

[manitou]

 I was reading Manitou's comments and wondered if she had reached that edge? However, the later replies to your posts re-assured me she had not reached that point and was more than likely 'acting'. 

 

 

Perhaps I am acting.  The only edge I've been to is the one where you're alone, all alone out there in the darkness.  There is no other presence there, no sense of presence at all.  The identity falls off around you.  You get an absolute feeling that you have the choice of returning or not.  It is terrifying.  Are you speaking of another edge that I missed?

[manitou]

I don't think you have come to it. There are a lot of false starts in which it's possible to act out/practice what you are ultimately intending to do. You can skirt around and play at it, but, there is a point where I knew it had turned serious. It was at that point I wound down the practices trying to discover which one was causing it. It was the meditation.

 

 

 

Well, I've only been at this for a few weeks, so I'd appreciate it if you could direct me where to go next.  If shedding identity in meditation doesn't meet your standards (and you see it as a false start) please tell me exactly what mental experience I need to have happen to reach your degree of adeptness.

 

I look forward to the day when I get serious about all this.

[SonOfTheGods]

You're intuiting their energy, not actual physical expression perhaps

 

 

After looking at some gurus' faces, I have come to notice something.

[Orion]

When people experience boundless freedom and liberation, how do they feel? How they treat others? Try to imagine someone who has no attachments, or who takes nothing personally. Someone who is totally awake and are basically divine will in action.

 

That person would be in love.

 

Loving kindness is a discipline for trying to achieve awakeness.

 

Once awake, loving kindness comes naturally because you become 100% unburdened from the million and one identity crises and responsibilities that an attached consciousness experiences.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Orion

[de_paradise]

Emptiness is experienced as a calm confidence about yourself, life and the manifest world. The absence of fear of death. A still ocean inside. The ability to understand why things happen the way the happen.

 

Kindness can be experienced as a warm fuzzy feeling in your chest, a feeling of emotional pleasantness. A feeling that you love the world and that love is inscribed in the fabric of reality. It is a very pleasant feeling, and people will notice it.

 

Wonder is experienced as if the world has a touch of magic to it - as if everything is somehow perfect, yet somehow mysterious and endlessly fascinating. You will feel that all of your movements are fluid and perfect, and that every time you turn a corner on the street there's always something new and magical manifesting there. It adds a mysterious energy to life, and makes it a voyage of perfect discovery.

 

Good description. I can add that kindness, or compassion, that heart feel taps into a strong field of energy. Its more difficult to practice because the stony heart does not want to change. There is serious resistance from our own selfishness habitual state of being.  Emptiness is a kind of retreating, wheras kindness intent is engaging, though you dont actually have to engage with other people's egos. The level of kindness intent does not mean pandering to other people's egocentric desires, so it doesnt necessarily lead to boyscout acts of kindness. Because you see others as really just fooling around wrapped up in selfish desires 100% of the time, but helping them out to pursue selfish ends doesn't make sense. So regular people may not notice your loving kindness, because for them friendliness is about conventional smiles, chit chat, gifts, favors etc. 

 

Loving kindness or heart chakra engaging practices are inherently blissful. You discover how to engage your heart chakra on your own, not necessarily through some practice, but out of a kind of necessity because as one advances down the path, mundane pleasures get muted and regular selfish emotions get turned up in volume to a kind of torturous level. Something the kabbalists call "the revelation of evil" which is all your personal junk with nowhere to hide. In this mine field, a blissful loving kindness, giving type of emotional state is at least going to give you respite, and where kundalini or God is pushing you to go.

 

edit: Just to add, the "wonder" or awe, I would call enraptured state. Like the face of Ramana or the paintings of El Greco. Just another flavor of a higher state, basically the same thing.

Edited September 20, 2015 by de_paradise

[Bud Jetsun]

The natural state is ineffable bliss.

 

Delusions/constructs of the mind replace perception of the natural state. Its a trade of the unlimited awe and wonder of Now (reality), in exchange for human-

manufactured delusions of inherent perception-artifact-bias, AKA 'knowing something.'

 

Humans have arranged yet more patterns of symbols for each-other, there still remains nothing that can be known, there is only this one perception of Now and delusions.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[doc benway]

After looking at some gurus' faces, I have come to notice something.

 

It seems to me that we have two spiritual currents which must manifest in our consciousness if we are to be fully enlightened. One is kindness, and the other is emptiness - or clarity.

 

I believe this can be seen in people's faces: Emptiness is the degree to which you have presence in the now; the degree to which you are conscious of your thoughts, emotions and intuitions. It is your ability to be mentally proactive, rather than reactive. People with emptiness find it hard to be irritated, or swept away by irrational impulses. It is evidenced by a relaxed and intelligent look on one's face (in my opinion).

 

Kindness is the degree to which you have moved towards love and selflessness, instead of lust, hate or anger. It is your tendency to seek relationships of mutual love and respect, instead of impersonal lust. It is the natural ability to see the quiet potential of human beings, and to like them for what they are. It is the ability to give every person a chance before judging them. It is evidenced by a friendly open and non-judging face - and a warm and sympathetic smile.

 

I am thinking of adding a third spiritual current: Wonder. The ability to find the manifest reality wonderful, mysterious, intriguing - endlessly fascinating. This is what adds a certain energy and a secret smile to the face of the enlightened one.

 

Personally I see myself being heavier on emptiness than kindness.

 

David Verdesi, Adi Da and Muktananda. In their faces I see emptiness, but not kindness.

 

Sadhguru, Kalu Rinpoche and Gopi Krishna. In their faces I see emptiness as well as kindness.

 

I know this is going to be controversial, especially since it's based on personal opinion only. But would love to hear your thoughts.

 

I don't know how accurately I'm able to read people by their faces, be they spiritual leaders or otherwise.

I sometimes feel like I can see deeply into people but I've been mistaken more than once...

Something that I think I can recognize is sincerity and genuineness.

Perhaps kindness and compassion.

 

I will offer this brief story - a friend once gave me a book. On the back cover was the author's photograph. When I looked at it I immediately felt like I knew him somehow, not superficially but deeply. He was very familiar. Not only that - I felt drawn to him, I felt warmth, and love. It was really strange and a bit scary for me because at the time I was quite a left-brained, dry, concrete thinker. I was so drawn to him that I sought him out as a teacher and have studied with him ever since. And he is an incredibly warm, generous, and genuine person and an amazing teacher. 

[Orion]

I don't think you can tell from someone's face whether they're empty or kind, or both, or neither.

 

Images of gurus are static, and not really them. How can you tell?

 

One thing I've noticed about all awakened people I've come across, is that their eyes are very bright. In TCM we call this the luster of the eyes. When a living thing dies, the eyes become dull, the luster is gone immediately. Eye luster comes from the spirit, so I'm assuming that really bright eye luster is a sign of how strong the spirit is.

 

IMO the eyes reveal things more than the facial expressions, even in pictures. People can smile with their eyes and love with their eyes, even if their facial expression is neutral.