loving and loss

[ilumairen]

My once strong, handsome, and demanding cat is in the final stages of dying. He is none of those things that once could easily be used to define him. This is the way of slow death. There is no comforting thought of at least he didn't suffer. There is only doing what I can to make him as comfortable as possible.

Yesterday I held the water bowl so he could drink. Last night was the first time in all the years we spent together that he turned away from food. Today he is incapable of getting up to greet me, so I sit with him.

Last night my SO asked if I was sad. I said yes. He said we knew this time was coming. And I replied yes again, and then added we also knew I would be sad. He said, 'Putty was a good cat.' I gave him a look before we both laughed and agreed that no, he wasn't, but he was cool all the same.

He is still here, and already gone at the same time.

But this is why I am not a Buddhist. I am ok with the moments of suffering that come from attachment. I am human. I love, I lose, I suffer, and I laugh.

[ilumairen]

So Putty is gone; his body is buried between the lilacs. My man kept saying reassuring words about the good life Putty lived. I told him I was sad, but ok, and that he didn't need to say things to try to make me feel better - unless the words helped him feel better. He said they did. So he talked, and I listened.

The ten thousand things rise and fall.

I understand that this is personal experience that others might not feel comfortable addressing, but I would like it if this would enable a discussion... life, death, love, loss - our interaction with the ten thousand, and how our philosophies, thoughts, beliefs, practices, etc apply to 'real life'.

[Marblehead]

I know what you are talking about.  I too have loved and lost.  But that old saying, you know, Better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all.

 

I think it is quite normal to form attachments.  We really do need some one, some thing, to give our love to beside just ourself.

 

I have lost many cats during my lifetime.  It's always a sad experience.  But we cannot change the Way of Tao.  But we can acknowledge that we are not in control of the Way of Tao.  In fact, we are bound to it.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Marblehead

[thelerner]

Death tests our philosophy and humanity. 

 

The only wise thing I've picked up is not to demand why, instead ask 'how can i help?'

[Wu Ming Jen]

Dealing with emotions directly is best. Some hide from facts like an unexpected death of someone close to our hearts. Some will mask undealt with emotions with depression medication or a form of escape doing anything but go into the tiger's cave. 

 

Cycling through the emotions on a daily bases is healthy it is when we hold on and attach to one emotion illness occurs.

 

There are harsh words about death and birth like......  being overjoyed with birth and devastated with death is to be a child of circumstance. This is to reflect and see where these emotions come from.

 

At a funeral there will be tears and there will be laughter it is only those that attach and can not cycle that are only seeing a sliver of what is going on instead of the whole picture.

 

I have loved and I have lost but the energy of those loved ones is always present it is a part of us. Most veiw death in a selfish way only seeing their own mortality. Mind sees beginning and ends but the spirit the energy of a being is everlasting whether present physically or not. @ Des you are awesome sorry for your loss.

[leth]

I have lost the one person I loved the most, and perhaps the person I will have loved the most in my life. I can't tell the future, perhaps if I find a partner to deeply love, get kids and form a family I will love as much again who knows, but I am only getting older.  Granted there are people I love very much now , and a few that i have almost as much love for. But in either case, the death of that person was sadest event in my life, and will perhaps remain that.

 

In a way I was profoundly taught something very important by that moment. While it was a very sad event of my life, it was also something which gave me great understanding of life and my own view of it.

 

I will always carry the sorrow of that loss with me, and I will always feel a bit sad because that person is no longer in this world with me. But in a way the love goes far past death, and that love will still be there along with the sorrow. And the fact that I could appreciate the sadness and still manage my life while this all happened is I think that confirms my philosophy, atleast for myself.

 

And i dare to say that buddhists are not to be emotionless, or free from sadness. They are simply not supposed to devestated by sadness, they should be able to see the beuaty of life even in death. And while I can't say that i am that enlightened or even that emotionally matured, i dare to say that I was emotionally matured to understand what is meant by that, and how much sense it makes to follow such a philosophy. To be able to feel sadness without actually suffering from it. Words can't really describe it, and as we all know suffering is not a good translation of Dukkha. I am rather satisfied even though I have gone throught this sad experience. I was sad, but i did not hold on to that sadness, i let it be in my and observed it, and in there somewhere I also found a deep love. And i find this to be inline with Buddhist thought. I am no Buddhist but i would like to point out that my view of buddhism (which is perhaps not the most educated, but atleast based in a curious interest in buddhism) is that my personal philosophy in this aspect is rather similar to Buddhism.

 

And this also brings me to discuss attachment. Attachment is not an easy concept to grasp either. Do buddhists say that it is wrong to love someone? Do they say that loss is not something we should even consider? I don't think so, I personally think it is more about not being depenant on something, to not be attached to something in the sense that you will be dragged down by it.

 

While I can't say that I wasn't attached to this person I dare to say that I was agreeing with that general thought that attachments are something that should be avoided and that I was trying to let go of any attachemnts that I had in my life. And I think that helped me deal with my sorrow aswell. But not only that, it has helped me much in life in general. But lack of attachments is not the same thing as being apathic or to avoid sadness. Life is filled with both happy events and sad events, and that is beautiful. Sadness does not have to be an unpleasant emotion, it can be a very beautiful emotion. And expressions of sadness is also beautiful thing. To feel despair or to become devestated by the loss of someone or something however is not very beautifull, or even helpfull in life. And in a sense I think this an unnatural emotional response. Sadnes is natural, and simple and beautiful. Despair and devestation is not very beautiful and comes from attachment which is unnatural.

 

So i might not have reached enlightenment in a buddhistic sense (or any other for that matter), but from my experience I think i understand some aspects of it and I think I agree to that it is a form of enlightenment to not be attached. But i don't think that this excludes sadness, nor do I think that buddhists think that it excludes sadness.

 

Having that said, I have to agree with Marblehead, it is better to have loved. And i think it is important to feel love, and to recognise that everything will end, and that love can prevail past that end. I don't know your relationship to Putty, but I have a feeling it was a very loving relationship and that it gave you both much love, and that is beautiful. And i think that your expression of sadness in your post is beautiful, because in it I see love. And this is aligned with my personal philosophy, and in a sense it is how i practice my philosophy in this regard. And it has helped me through my life. And I really like that I can see love in sadness, which is what what my philosophy has made me able to do. And this philosophy is very much influenced by both Buddhist and Daoist thought.

[ilumairen]

Thank you to all who have shared your thoughts here. I'm only on break at work for the moment, and would prefer to address them individually when I have had the time to give them the consideration they deserve.

PS I meant no disrespect to Buddhists or Buddhism, and am willing to accept my understanding may be flawed, and/or may not reflect in anyway at all the actual practices and beliefs of individuals here.

[MBZ]

Hi Des, so sorry for your loss. I just lossed my pug Max a month ago and for me it has been the hardest thing I've ever dealt with emotionally as I've never been closer to any other being in my life and consider him my soulmate. When I looked into his eyes I could see GOD, for real. I personally believe attachment is part of the "game" and it's how we deal with it that matters, not avoiding it. Being so "attached " to him has made me more kind, loving, and compassionate and therefore a better person and I don't believe I would be this better person if I hadn't been "all in"...his true gift to me. I'm always gonna miss him and love him but he will never really be gone from me and his gift to me will be with me forever. Eat right, take walks out in the fresh air and sunlight, and meditate or do whatever practice you do and it will get better, I promise. I'm sending you and your man healing love and light. Take care.

Blessings,

Michael

[ilumairen]

Marblehead, as I've been wandering about here, I've discovered an affinity for your words. You are a mirror that I like gazing upon, reflecting my contentment with the 'what is' back at me. It's nice.

Yes, it is in my nature to love and nurture. It is also in my nature to understand and accept that this loving will, inevitably, lead to loss.

I am both sorry for the loss of your feline friends, and happy that they found their way to you and into your heart at the same time.

 

Surrendering the illusion of control is one of the keys to contentment imo.

 

Thank you again for your reply.

[ilumairen]

thelerner,

 

Indeed, asking how I can help is wise. For me, I know I will be ok. I will flow through the feelings of loss. I will cry when I feel like crying and laugh when I feel like laughing. It is not the same for many people that I know..

 

I do, however, often settle on a why. That is that this is the way it works. Because there is life, there is death.

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply. You have helped.

[SonOfTheGods]

You can't take a physical journey if you don't move your feet 

[ilumairen]

Wu Ming Jen,

 

Pure wisdom. There is nothing to add. If we want emotional health we will have to enter the tiger's cave. We must allow things to flow as they will. We must not become stagnant.

 

To me, we are children of circumstance - lacking in most of the control we delude ourselves into believing we have. It doesn't seem harsh to me - only blunt and accurate. Then again, I am neither overjoyed or devastated, but simply happy and sad.

 

I loved Putty's personality, I loved his demandingness. I loved how he loved everyone without fear, and would nestle onto anyone's lap. I loved that his warm purring self caused more than one friend to feel so content and warm that they ended up napping when they visited. I am better for the experience of sharing our lives, but that time has now passed and these things that I loved are now lost to me - save for memories of 'what was'.

 

Yes, he touched my life in a way that will carry on through me, but that isn't what I loved - only something I appreciated.

 

Thank you for your reply. You are awesome.

[ilumairen]

leth,

 

First, and foremost, I am sorry for your loss. I have lost many people and a few furry friends in my life, but never the person I loved the most. That person in my life often tells me that he has to die first. He can't stand the thought; I don't like the thought. I do think that your ability to manage your life is a testament that your philosophy works for you.

 

Second, as I wrote earlier, my understanding of Buddhism may be flawed. I thought the idea was to finally reach a stage of non-attachment that allowed one to break the cycle of birth death and rebirth. I understand that there are many schools of Buddhism, much like any other religion, and that there are differences in focus and understanding. I meant no insult, I meant only that this is not for me.

 

I am interested if you care to further discus ideas of attachment, or if it is important to you that I better understand what Buddhism is to you.

 

I suspect much of our apparent difference is in the way we are using words... or perhaps it is only what I am thinking is meant by the word suffering.

[ilumairen]

MBZ,

 

I am so sorry for your loss. Max sounds like he was an amazing friend.

 

I agree with your idea that attachment is part of the game. It is part of our humanness, and, as you wrote, not something to be avoided. I have often wondered about attachment to unattachment, and what is lost from this perspective. But, I'll leave that to those who find value there in...

 

Personally, I don't like avoidance either. It doesn't seem healthy. I often say that people love as much as they are able. For whatever reasons some people just don't have the same capacity as others. This isn't right or wrong; it just is. Your shared experience with Max seems to have brought you to a place of greater capacity. That is beautiful. And, if the shared experience itself wasn't enough, this greater capacity in itself would make the experience of loss worth it.

 

As for your very practical advice.. I wish I had gotten your post before our preplanned and heavy midday meal. During a normal work week a heavy meal at this point helps make it through the week. Yesterday it just sat like a rock in my stomach. Ooops.

 

Thank you so very much for sharing your experience and understanding David.

[ilumairen]

What journey SonOfTheGods?

[leth]

Second, as I wrote earlier, my understanding of Buddhism may be flawed.

 

Perhaps my view of Buddhism is flawed aswell, I am far from an expert on buddhism, i just thought i'd try to give my thoughts on the subject.

 

I thought the idea was to finally reach a stage of non-attachment that allowed one to break the cycle of birth death and rebirth.

 

In a sense, the idea is to reach a state of non-attachment the allwos you to break the cycle of birth. death and rebirth.

But what is meant by non-attachment? Is love attachement? If so, then how can buddhists love, which seems to be a central part buddhist practice?

 

I understand that there are many schools of Buddhism, much like any other religion, and that there are differences in focus and understanding.

 

There are, and i don't even fully understand Buddhism, i just stated my views on it's school of thought.

 

I meant no insult, I meant only that this is not for me.

 

I take no insult in what you say, i see nothing in it as insulting in any way, besides i do not consider myself a Buddhist, but i don't se how it would be insulting to a buddhist either.

 

But i think that from my viewpoint you do seem to be more aligned with Buddhist thought than you might think. Even though Buddhism might not be for you, the statement "I am ok with the moments of suffering that come from attachment. I am human. I love, I lose, I suffer, and I laugh." is awefully close to buddhist thought in my book. I guess i just wanted to explain that somehow.

 

I am interested if you care to further discus ideas of attachment, or if it is important to you that I better understand what Buddhism is to you.

 

It is not really important to you, but I would gladly discuss my views on Buddhism with you if you so wish.

 

I suspect much of our apparent difference is in the way we are using words... or perhaps it is only what I am thinking is meant by the word suffering.

 

I agree with the first part the way we use and understand words are often the reason differences of this kind. I think it's important to question ones words and what they mean, and what other people men when they use words, because words don't always mean the same thing for everyone. This is further complicated by translation and cultural contexts. You might understand the word suffering, but the word Dukkha is different. Suffering is not a perfect translation.

[leth]

For the past few days (I have a bad sense of time, weeks?) i have had a fly flying around in my apartment. At first i didn't make much notice of it, but after a while i guess i started to be think about how it was probably stuck in my partment somehow because it still remained here. Usualy flyes come and go, and there nothing more to it. In a sense this was different, perhaps because it was trapped inside my apartment. It sometimes seemed to hang around me and on several accounts landed on me and just stayed there. I once opened a window for it when it was close, but it didn't fly out for whatever reason, so i let it stay with me.

 

In a sense it sort of became a pet of mine, I even talked to it some times. Perhaps it had some other connection to me, that I don't understand. I had some thoughts on that subject, and although such thoughts can be interesting to persue I don't consider myself to know anything about such things, i am perhaps not even capable of knowing such things, so i remain agnostic on any such speculations.

 

But today i sadly found it drowned in a glass of water i had left over the night in the sink.

It made me sad, but then again i felt love for that dead fly, it had given me company for some time here in my otherwise rather lonely apartment. So i burried it in one the earht of one of my potted plants. A short and practical burrial ceremony, but nonetheless it was nice i think.

 

Life and death, we will all die, flies, as humans, as dogs and so on, but it is all the same. (I once lost a dog aswell when I was younger. It was a family memeber of sort, that had been part of the family for some time. And I loved it greatly. But thats another story)

 

 

So in a sense i said farewell to a friend when i buried that fly, albeit a shortlived friendship, and perhaps not as deep and giving as many others but yet a friendship. Atleast from my part, i don't know what that fly thought, perhaps it hated me or was afraid of me. But the point i want to make is that this did not really affect me in any way that brought distress to me.

 

Life always ends with death. Not sure why i post this here, but I guess it put some perspective on death and loss. In one sense it is not different from other losses I've had, but yet it is not the same. We must all come to an end, perhaps it is better celebrating life instead of spending too much time clinging that which is now dead. While I know some very important person have died on me when i think of them I don't think of them as dead, i think of them and feel love. I think of the fly and i feel love. So how much difference is there?

[AussieTrees]

We placed several flat rocks over the filled in hole in the ground,fo our little 14 yo Bella.

Bella was a jack Russell dog,the only dog that would smile at visitors.

She would show her teeth and spin in circles of excitement when confronted by visitors.

Yes we miss her,but we also remember her whilst watering the bonsai plants we now place on those stones.

 

Thankyou very much Des for your reminder that life is short.

[Horus]

My once strong, handsome, and demanding cat is in the final stages of dying. He is none of those things that once could easily be used to define him. This is the way of slow death. There is no comforting thought of at least he didn't suffer. There is only doing what I can to make him as comfortable as possible.

Yesterday I held the water bowl so he could drink. Last night was the first time in all the years we spent together that he turned away from food. Today he is incapable of getting up to greet me, so I sit with him.

Last night my SO asked if I was sad. I said yes. He said we knew this time was coming. And I replied yes again, and then added we also knew I would be sad. He said, 'Putty was a good cat.' I gave him a look before we both laughed and agreed that no, he wasn't, but he was cool all the same.

He is still here, and already gone at the same time.

But this is why I am not a Buddhist. I am ok with the moments of suffering that come from attachment. I am human. I love, I lose, I suffer, and I laugh.

 

Absolutely beautiful, Des.

[ilumairen]

Hi leth.

 

Years ago I was staying with my sister and BIL. One night I noticed a fly buzzing about. It even landed on me a couple times. I acknowledged it and went to sleep. The second night I didn't see it right away, and wondered about it as I nestled into bed. I actually smiled and said 'there you are' out loud when it came and landed on me.

The next day when I returned home my BIL proudly announced he killed a fly that was buzzing around in the room I was staying in. I asked why, and he said because it was a fly. He told stories after that about me being the only one who would make friends with a fly. But apparently I'm not the only one! Thank you.

[ilumairen]

Hi Aussie,

 

It sounds like your smiling Bella was a friend to everyone. I am sorry for your loss, and thank you for sharing a bit of her here. She's still making people smile through you, and your fond memories.

[ilumairen]

So leth, there is the story of the master who realized he had a favorite cup (or bowl or some such), and when he realized it he broke it. For whatever reason that ended up encompassing my thoughts on the idea of non-attachment. To me that looked like this master was attached to non-attachment to the point of acting unreasonably.

 

Perhaps it is unreasonable for me to place so much weight to this story...

 

What are your thoughts?

[ilumairen]

 

I agree with the first part the way we use and understand words are often the reason differences of this kind. I think it's important to question ones words and what they mean, and what other people men when they use words, because words don't always mean the same thing for everyone. This is further complicated by translation and cultural contexts. You might understand the word suffering, but the word Dukkha is different. Suffering is not a perfect translation.

So Dukkha is meant more to apply to the mind-weight we place on an experience, and less on the actual attributes of the experience?

[leth]

So leth, there is the story of the master who realized he had a favorite cup (or bowl or some such), and when he realized it he broke it. For whatever reason that ended up encompassing my thoughts on the idea of non-attachment. To me that looked like this master was attached to non-attachment to the point of acting unreasonably.

 

Perhaps it is unreasonable for me to place so much weight to this story...

 

What are your thoughts?

 

It is certainly bad to be attached to the idea of non-attachment, for that is an attachment itself. But as is often with these perhaps that is the last attachment that should be erradicated if one is on the path towards non-attachment.

 

And what was the masters intention with braking the cup? I think this story illustrates that even the greatest of masters are probably not perfect, but aside from that, the master might've broken the cup as a symbolic gesture to destroy the attachemnt in it's mind. It can be interepreted in many ways, and i think any interpretion should teach us something. Though we can't possible see every interpretion i think it's good to widen ones view and try to find as many interpretions as possible. Then there is teh quesiton of what sort of interpretions and lessons one is read for in life. When on needs to understand the fallacy of attachment to non-attchment then perhaps one makes that interpretion and i think that is an important lesson.

[leth]

So Dukkha is meant more to apply to the mind-weight we place on an experience, and less on the actual attributes of the experience?

 

That is an interesting way to put it. I like this way of putting it, but  perhaps it is to be considered to describe the expereince of the effect that applying negative mind-weight has on an experience rather than the mind-weight itself? And in that sense it is an attribute of an experience, or perhaps an experience in itself.

 

Now I'm confused by what an experience really is and what attributes an experience can have.. Hopefully this confusion is leads to understanding somehow.

 

What is meant with experience and attributes of an experience?

Edited October 10, 2015 by leth