Not damaging the body

[dust]

身體髮膚，受之父母，不敢毀傷

孝至始也

 

We are given our body, skin and hair from our parents; which we ought not to damage.

This idea is the quintessence of filial duty.

 

The Classic of Filial Piety

 

 

 

I remember a guy on the train to Beijing a couple of years ago who, on seeing one of my tattoos, told me confidently that getting tattooed or pierced or otherwise 'damaging' one's body -- the body one's parents were kind enough to bestow upon us -- was wrong, and disrespectful to one's parents. He may well have been referring to the above text.

 

This text presents a specifically Confucian view, and we might argue for pages about how connected Confucianism and Daoism are, but I'd rather not get into that. I simply use the text as a starting point to ask what you all think about 'damaging' one's body.

 

When does interference with your original, ziran self-so body become...perverse? 'Unnatural'? Do we owe it to our parents, or to Mother Nature, to preserve what we've been "given"?

 

Or is everything we do to our bodies, being an inevitable result of the natural order of things and ultimately satisfying for us as individuals, perfectly natural and acceptable? Am I not free to do with myself as I see fit?

 

Cutting hair? Clipping nails? Tattoos? Piercings? Implants? Cosmetic surgery?

 

Do you draw a line?

[leth]

Personaly I have had this instinct or intuition that i should not damage my own body, or self-mutilate as i have many times thought about it as. But I'm not sure about where i draw the line really. I have considered getting a tattoo, but i have always been wary about getting one considering it is a rather permanent thing I don't want to regret it decades later. In the end i have always ended up arguing that I can't be sure I belive in anything so adamantly that I can't possible regret getting a tatto with a symbol of it. Sometimes this intuition on not harming myself has influenced the decision to some extent but mostly it has been the chance of regret that has made the decision.

 

I kept long hair for a period of time during my teens and young adult years, because I didn't want to cut it. But somewhere in my late twenties i decided to cut it short, so i guess that doesn't matter much. Besides i have shaved my facial hair away my whole life, i find that what grows doesn't really look good if I let it grow out and I guess there is some part of me that is a bit vain.

 

Other than that I don't think i've thought much on it myself. But I hold the opinion that any sort of modificatin of my body that is no necessary is pointless to make. I've had some friends that has been into bodymods of varying degrees and I have in a sense had the opportunity to see that culture up front, which is rather fascinating but i have myself never really felt the need for it, the only bodmod i've ever considered in any way is tattoos as i described before.

 

But i guess I can play with the idea a bit. In one seense i'd have to agree with myself, if it's not needed then why do it? I guess that is a sort of functional view of the body, and it disregards any aesthethic arguments, which of course would be valid. But i see no need for aesthethics when it comes to the body, I guess Im more focused on the inner part of our beingness. One can look at the body as just a body, something that is just a shell, and in that case what can posibly be wrong with decorating that shell or modifying it according to ones preferences? On the other hand there is the question on any sort of modification of the body comes from being vain, and that could be considered an inherently unwanted trait.

 

But in the end i think it is up to each and everyone to do as they themselves pleases.

[CodyWizard]

When it comes to damaging the body, I think more about the amount and quality of foods that we eat, the amount and quality of rest or exercise we get, and the amount of alcohol, drugs. or cigarettes we consume, and the amount of time we spend with certain people or certain activities.

 

Not so much about hair cuts, tattoos or breast implants.

[dawei]

You are both correct in your own way.  

 

As I am sure you know, chinese can follow tradition mindlessly (or out of guilt), and the main idea is to not do anything which would do 'harm to the body'... they take it to an extreme 'practice';  eat varied foods, drink hot beverages, take everything slowly, rest at every moment (if possible), take no concerns, get a massage, etc.

 

The western body and constitution is stronger and can accept a slightly harder way than the softer eastern way...  

 

Do we owe it to anything?  

 

Is the argument about owing it to our parents really any different than an argument to owe it to naturalness (ziran)?

 

There really is no line till we draw it.

[liminal_luke]

As I read this, I am eating a cookie. I´d probably be better off from a body damage standpoint getting a discreet piercing.

 

Liminal

[Gerard]

Cutting hair? Clipping nails? Tattoos? Piercings? Implants? Cosmetic surgery?

 

 

I agree with the above about eating junk and incorrect food people eat on a daily basis due to ignorance and society's pressure; eating late; eating fast and not MINDFULLY; breathing toxic air, taking Western prescription medication, alcohol and drug consumption, staring at a computer monitor for hours, lack of physical exercise, stress, excessive sexual activity...and then hatred, anger, worry, fear, overthinking, etc. all of these factors damage the body terribly.

 

Your body is your MIND and vice versa, an impure mind damages the body GREATLY.

 

 

[Taomeow]

Dusty,

 

the filial piety interpretation of this idea may be Confucian, but the origin of it is taoist.  Many taoist schools have a prohibition on any voluntary alterations to the body and strict rules against exposure to unnecessary dangers (extreme sports or drunk driving would be in this category, but they frown even upon jogging.)  Taoists are not cowards and will do extreme things to their bodies when there's a necessity or a clear cultivational goal.  But careless handling is strongly discouraged.  It may or may not be disrespectful to parents, but the idea is that a tattoo on the body is a tattoo on the spirit, since unlike in Indo-European modalities, there's no demarcation line between one and the other.  The body is spiritual and the basis of the spirit is material; you don't want to alter that on a momentary whim and be stuck with the outcome for an eternity.  For the same reason -- body and spirit are one -- taoists don't donate organs nor accept donated organs.  (I mean real taoists, not maoists crash-trained to serve as taoists).  The practice is thought of as a form of possession.

 

I just saw an arm today freshly decorated with a huge -- outspread to half the arm -- Earlier Heaven bagua.  The recipient of the tattoo thought he's done something taoist.  In reality he's done something very strange, aside from the tattoo itself.  There's two situations in which the symbols of the Earlier and Later Heaven respectively are used as decorations -- not on the body, but on or in the houses of the living, where the Later Heaven bagua will be used -- or the tombs of the dead, where the Earlier Heaven bagua is used.  To put a decoration reserved for the dead on a living arm...  I dunno...  very bad feng shui at the very least.       

 

The flow of qi thorugh the meridians can be disrupted if the body is altered unnecessarily.  It's interesting that this is not generally the case with scars that are the result of unfortunate accidents or medical interventions -- even if a major meridian is cut, the body, in most cases, will restore it to the side of the scar and maintain it normally.  But if the scar or tattoo or implant appears due to one's own choice, the body accepts the choice, and does not attempt to restore the flow of qi in that area.  Strange but seems to make sense -- yi leads qi, if your yi, "the will of your mind," decides on cutting off its route, qi can't go against that.     

Edited October 11, 2015 by Taomeow

[dust]

When it comes to damaging the body, I think more about the amount and quality of foods that we eat, the amount and quality of rest or exercise we get, and the amount of alcohol, drugs. or cigarettes we consume, and the amount of time we spend with certain people or certain activities.

 

Not so much about hair cuts, tattoos or breast implants.

 

I understand why you went here -- I considered asking about these things (food, drugs, etc) in the OP, as they obviously do affect us greatly, and if we consume 'bad' stuff we can indeed be said to be damaging the body, with long term abuse of such things having deeper and more far-reaching consequences than piercings or a hair cut. I absolutely appreciate that these things are more important to consider.

 

However, there are many topics on health, diet, drugs, water quality, etc on TDB, and I think it can be taken for granted that the majority of us are trying to live healthier, less toxic lives, free of shitty foods and (excess) booze, drugs, etc. I decided not to mention damage to the inner body, or the body in general, in favour of focusing, for this thread, on outward body modification: hair, skin, etc.

 

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in the OP. Hopefully we can focus, for this topic, not on a general "What is damaging to our bodies?" but the more specific "Where do you draw the line in terms of short-term/long-term changes to the outer body?"

 

[dust]

Other than that I don't think i've thought much on it myself. But I hold the opinion that any sort of modificatin of my body that is no necessary is pointless to make. I've had some friends that has been into bodymods of varying degrees and I have in a sense had the opportunity to see that culture up front, which is rather fascinating but i have myself never really felt the need for it, the only bodmod i've ever considered in any way is tattoos as i described before.

 

Pointless, perhaps... but can't anything be said to be pointless? Surely if someone loves to do something -- colour their skin with ink, for example -- the point is that they find it pleasing?

 

I've spent a lot of time with tattoo artists, some of whom are fairly well-pierced. This level of modification doesn't bother me -- indeed, I love tattoos. But further than that, I have trouble understanding. Things like implants and cock rings seem a step too far, as does Hollywood-style cosmetic surgery. But that's why I'm asking the question: if surgery seems a "step too far", surely injecting ink into my skin is a "step too far"? And surely cutting away my hair and nails is a "step too far"?

 

 

But i guess I can play with the idea a bit. In one seense i'd have to agree with myself, if it's not needed then why do it? I guess that is a sort of functional view of the body, and it disregards any aesthethic arguments, which of course would be valid. But i see no need for aesthethics when it comes to the body, I guess Im more focused on the inner part of our beingness. One can look at the body as just a body, something that is just a shell, and in that case what can posibly be wrong with decorating that shell or modifying it according to ones preferences? On the other hand there is the question on any sort of modification of the body comes from being vain, and that could be considered an inherently unwanted trait.

 

It's not just a shell; as I see things, we are our body. There is no separation between mind and body.

 

But humans have been bestowed with an aesthetic eye, an appreciation for shapes and colours, a desire to create new things. So why not apply that to ourselves?

 

 

But in the end i think it is up to each and everyone to do as they themselves pleases.

 

Yes, of course.

[dust]

Many taoist schools have a prohibition on any voluntary alterations to the body and strict rules against exposure to unnecessary dangers (extreme sports or drunk driving would be in this category, but they frown even upon jogging.)

 

Yes, I was wondering about this kind of thing too. Extreme sports, putting one at risk of external and internal damage. Jogging, though? What's the reasoning behind that?

 

 

It may or may not be disrespectful to parents, but the idea is that a tattoo on the body is a tattoo on the spirit, since unlike in Indo-European modalities, there's no demarcation line between one and the other.  The body is spiritual and the basis of the spirit is material; you don't want to alter that on a momentary whim and be stuck with the outcome for an eternity.

 

This is how I see it. There is no demarcation, no separation.

 

But I have heard it said that a genuine, well-considered tattoo was already a part of a person; the act of tattooing simply brings it to the surface.

 

Looking at certain other cultures through history, the act of tattooing has often been considered an important rite of passage, even a part of spiritual development..

 

 

I just saw an arm today freshly decorated with a huge -- outspread to half the arm -- Earlier Heaven bagua.  The recipient of the tattoo thought he's done something taoist.  In reality he's done something very strange, aside from the tattoo itself.  There's two situations in which the symbols of the Earlier and Later Heaven respectively are used as decorations -- not on the body, but on or in the houses of the living, where the Later Heaven bagua will be used -- or the tombs of the dead, where the Earlier Heaven bagua is used.  To put a decoration reserved for the dead on a living arm...  I dunno...  very bad feng shui at the very least.       

 

Oops. A few years ago I considered a tattoo along these lines.

 

This does go to show that, at the very least, a lot of research needs to be done...if one doesn't fully understand the meaning behind something, they may indeed one day regret getting it permanently injected...

 

 

The flow of qi thorugh the meridians can be disrupted if the body is altered unnecessarily.  It's interesting that this is not generally the case with scars that are the result of unfortunate accidents or medical interventions -- even if a major meridian is cut, the body, in most cases, will restore it to the side of the scar and maintain it normally.  But if the scar or tattoo or implant appears due to one's own choice, the body accepts the choice, and does not attempt to restore the flow of qi in that area.  Strange but seems to make sense -- yi leads qi, if your yi, "the will of your mind," decides on cutting off its route, qi can't go against that.

 

I'm not sure I understand. Should I not feel some kind of difference, then, between the arm that is tattooed and the one that isn't?

Edited October 11, 2015 by dustybeijing

[manitou]

I think when you really boil it down, tattoos are meant to be seen by others.  For what purpose?  Is this not a deep desire to appear as something other than our genuine selves?  

[Songtsan]

In the end its just an opinion. To strictly follow the rule would mean you would live a life of utter perfectionism: never staying up late to hang with friends, never dancing the night away, never eating desert (unless it is one of those low sugar, etc. healthy deserts), and so forth. Even moderately intense resistance training damages the body (but of course it adjusts). Growth often happens through damaging the body. I don't know how one could ever attain a high level of martial art ability without some intense sparring practice. Most jobs involve some sort of repetitive stress on the body. Tattoos and piercings heal soon enough. Can't see how they are a big deal...on the whole I agree with not damaging the body, but there has to be some wriggle room for living. The body will be dying eventually anyways, and you can't live in a protective bubble your whole life.

[dust]

I think when you really boil it down, tattoos are meant to be seen by others.  For what purpose?  Is this not a deep desire to appear as something other than our genuine selves?  

 

What is a genuine self?

 

Isn't a desire to express oneself genuine?

 

We constantly alter our minds, our perception of all sorts of things, through education and social conditioning. Nobody is the same from one day to the next; our outward appearance changes slowly, seeing far less trauma and alteration than our mind. We tattoo our mind frequently with ideas, dogmas. Isn't it simply honest to place these ideas on the outside?

 

 

 

WWLTD?

 

Tehe... I rather ask, WWCTD? And I think he'd be cool with it. He shows no judgement here

[manitou]

What is a genuine self?

 

Isn't a desire to express oneself genuine?

 

We constantly alter our minds, our perception of all sorts of things, through education and social conditioning. Nobody is the same from one day to the next; our outward appearance changes slowly, seeing far less trauma and alteration than our mind. We tattoo our mind frequently with ideas, dogmas. Isn't it simply honest to place these ideas on the outside?

 

An excellent point - isn't a desire to express oneself genuine?

 

Yes, at any point in our development we will express ourselves in different ways.  When I was young, I expressed myself by wearing lots of make-up and tight clothing.  But this wasn't an expression for me, it was an expression to impress others, to attract a man I thought I couldn't be whole without.

 

There's nothing inherently wrong, IMO, with tattooing or piercing.  I would just question the need to do it.  Would a master suddenly up and get a nose ring?  Probably not - maybe you can find the exception.  But a nose ring or a tattoo is generally done for the purpose of showing the world an attitude or mindset that you want the world to think you are:  that you are Cool.  If a person genuinely does it for his own purpose, say, because he truly loves dolphins and wants to wear one on his arm - then perhaps he would be just as comfortable walking around in a long sleeve shirt as a wife-beater T-shirt.  But I've found that most tattoo'd folks like to show them off, ergo the wife-beater shirts, lol.

 

I say be sure to pick a tattoo that will be compatible with you when you reach masterhood.

[Daeluin]

a starting point to ask what you all think about 'damaging' one's body.

 

As we are all one, this extends to the damaging of the collective body.

 

When does interference with your original, ziran self-so body become...perverse? 'Unnatural'?

 

How does one define interference? Flowing with ziran it is possible to follow a path that is mutually beneficial and harmonious to all things. Doing anything else is interference. Interference can be taken in the direction of most obvious balance, yet for balance to be complete one must surrender control.

 

Do we owe it to our parents, or to Mother Nature, to preserve what we've been "given"?

 

Is your body yours? Or does the ego claim it as its own?

 

Or is everything we do to our bodies, being an inevitable result of the natural order of things and ultimately satisfying for us as individuals, perfectly natural and acceptable? Am I not free to do with myself as I see fit?

 

Cutting hair? Clipping nails? Tattoos? Piercings? Implants? Cosmetic surgery?

 

Do you draw a line?

[dust]

If we were truly transparent about displaying our "tattooed mind" on our body, we ought to fit ourselves with a LED display screens to show to the world our constantly changing thoughts. Would that be an attractive "sleeve"?

 

Well aside from anything else, it's not possible, and even if it were, carrying big screens would hardly be practical...

 

But attractive? Maybe. To some.

 

If I could live in a society where others' thoughts were more obvious...I would certainly experiment with it.

 

 

btw, an achieved spiritual master can see beyond any physical or mental tattoo, to see exactly how much an image is affecting a person's spiritual development.

 

I'm sure some can, but...I'm not one..

 

 

 

But a nose ring or a tattoo is generally done for the purpose of showing the world an attitude or mindset that you want the world to think you are:  that you are Cool.

 

Well, in modern society, this is often the case. But in the tattoo community in Beijing, for example, almost everyone is tattooed (not all Chinese tattoo artists are though, in fact), and daily life revolves around a shared appreciation for combining beautiful lines and colours with the contours and textures of the human body. Many around the world genuinely love it as a unique artform, and pay little attention to whether or not their wardrobe exposes any particular piece of ink to the general public..

 

An old colleague of mine got a butterfly tattoo high up on her inner thigh, placed specifically so that people wouldn't see it (I know only because it was a friend of mine who did it).

 

 

I say be sure to pick a tattoo that will be compatible with you when you reach masterhood.

 

Certainly.

Edited October 11, 2015 by dustybeijing

[dust]

As we are all one, this extends to the damaging of the collective body.

 

Well, now... OK...

 

 

How does one define interference? Flowing with ziran it is possible to follow a path that is mutually beneficial and harmonious to all things. Doing anything else is interference. Interference can be taken in the direction of most obvious balance, yet for balance to be complete one must surrender control.

 

Well, I would suggest that if one feels they benefit from anything -- from getting a hair cut to having drastic cosmetic surgery -- then there has been a benefit in the greater scheme of things, too, no?

 

If we all surrender control, whose control are we surrendering to?

 

 

 

Is your body yours? Or does the ego claim it as its own?

 

My body is me. Which is, yes, inseparable from all else... but not dominated by it...

[dust]

I'm sensing some general aversion to tattoos so far...

 

What about cutting hair? Is that not 'damage'?

 

Isn't any hairstyle, any attempt to groom oneself, simply an attempt to make oneself look better? Cooler? What, then, about washing??

Edited October 11, 2015 by dustybeijing

[thelerner]

I find 'damaging the body' is something that impairs its function.  Thus if a person colors or pierces themselves, that's there bag and shouldn't be too much concern.

 

I'd only be concerned if a modification might limit there future prospects or say something particularly offensive.  That being said, I like the colorful and one of a kind. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by thelerner

[Daeluin]

If we all surrender control, whose control are we surrendering to?

 

To that which connects all things.

[Taoist Texts]

 

身體髮膚，受之父母，不敢毀傷

孝至始也

 

We are given our body, skin and hair from our parents; which we ought not to damage.

This idea is the quintessence of filial duty.

 

The Classic of Filial Piety

 

 

 

I remember a guy on the train to Beijing a couple of years ago who, on seeing one of my tattoos, told me confidently that getting tattooed or pierced or otherwise 'damaging' one's body -- the body one's parents were kind enough to bestow upon us -- was wrong, and disrespectful to one's parents. He may well have been referring to the above text.

 

 

曾子有疾，召門弟子曰：「啟予足！啟予手！《詩》云『戰戰兢兢，如臨深淵，如履薄冰。』而今而後，吾知免夫！小子！」

Tai Bo:

The philosopher Zeng being ill, he called to him the disciples of his school, and said, "Uncover my feet, uncover my hands. It is said in the Book of Poetry, 'We should be apprehensive and cautious, as if on the brink of a deep gulf, as if treading on thin ice, I and so have I been. Now and hereafter, I know my escape from all injury to my person. O ye, my little children."

[Taoist Texts]

Or is everything we do to our bodies, being an inevitable result of the natural order of things and ultimately satisfying for us as individuals, perfectly natural and acceptable? Am I not free to do with myself as I see fit?

 

Cutting hair? Clipping nails? Tattoos? Piercings? Implants? Cosmetic surgery?

 

Do you draw a line?

The correct question would be: what are the consequences? The real world ones. I would say draw the line where the bad consequences start. 

[Taomeow]

Yes, I was wondering about this kind of thing too. Extreme sports, putting one at risk of external and internal damage. Jogging, though? What's the reasoning behind that?

 

 

 

This is how I see it. There is no demarcation, no separation.

 

But I have heard it said that a genuine, well-considered tattoo was already a part of a person; the act of tattooing simply brings it to the surface.

 

Looking at certain other cultures through history, the act of tattooing has often been considered an important rite of passage, even a part of spiritual development..

 

 

 

Oops. A few years ago I considered a tattoo along these lines.

 

This does go to show that, at the very least, a lot of research needs to be done...if one doesn't fully understand the meaning behind something, they may indeed one day regret getting it permanently injected...

 

 

 

I'm not sure I understand. Should I not feel some kind of difference, then, between the arm that is tattooed and the one that isn't?

 

The oldest tattoos discovered, on Scythian mummies, appear to have been applied therapeutically, in patterns that follow  acupuncture points and meridians, and the material used for application was a mixture of burned medicinal herbs.  Used in this manner, tattoos are a medical intervention designed to correct the flow of qi if it requires permanent correction.  I believe we've seen many cargo cults in history, and keep seeing them today, where the external attributes of something meaningful are retained but the meaning itself is lost. 

 

As for feeling the difference -- I doubt it, unless you are as sensitive to qi as some seasoned taoist practitioners are.  Without special training, few people feel the flow of qi in their meridians.  However, if you undergo an MRI scan, you are likely to feel the difference -- it depends on the shape of the tattoo and the composition of the ink used, but some will cause intense pain or even a second-degree burn upon exposure.

 

If you believe that you instinctively knew where to apply the tattoo and in what shape so that it is serving a needed purpose, that's possible.  I don't think it's the case in most cases though. 

[Aetherous]

I'd only be concerned if a modification might limit there future prospects

 

Sometimes these might not even be obvious...the obvious ones are, for instance, not being hired at most places if you have a tattoo on your hands, neck, face, etc.

 

However, less obvious ones are for instance, when someone automatically puts you into the relationship-abyss because you have tattoos (the abyss being a black hole dungeon that you don't escape from; you don't ever have a chance at a relationship with that person). I'm one of those people...I wouldn't start a relationship with a woman with a tattoo sleeve or anything similar, just as a matter of principle. I'm even cautious about women with one or two small tattoos...even if they're cute or something. I view them as being very trashy and not in line with the character of person I want to be in a relationship with.

 

Think what you want about me and my seemingly harsh opinions, but there are many like me. There are hidden prospects that are lost because of having tattoos. Everything in life has consequences for better or worse.

 

Also...perhaps in some cultures (Maori) they are viewed as good, and to be without them would be harmful to you and others...while in other cultures such as Chinese, they're viewed poorly and are actually harmful in those cases. Harmful to yourself, your prospects, your reputation, your family's reputation, etc.

[SonOfTheGods]

In my bad boy era (I'm good now kinda) I have tattooed approx 60% of my body

 

I haven't detected any Qi impingement from my own personal experience

 

On the flip side, taking an antibiotic kills good intestinal flora...

 

A line of personal choice needs to be made