Not damaging the body

[Taomeow]

I wouldn't start a relationship with a woman with a tattoo sleeve or anything similar, just as a matter of principle. I'm even cautious about women with one or two small tattoos...even if they're cute or something. I view them as being very trashy and not in line with the character of person I want to be in a relationship with.

 

Sometimes it's useful to find out how old they were when they got the tattoos.  They may not be "trashy," they may just be women who once were teenagers who didn't know any better. 

[Taomeow]

In my bad boy era (I'm good now kinda) I have tattooed approx 60% of my body

 

I haven't detected any Qi impingement from my own personal experience

 

On the flip side, taking an antibiotic kills good intestinal flora...

 

A line of personal choice needs to be made

 

Antibiotics are not taken for fun, attention, or to make any sort of statement.  They are taken, ideally, when killing intestinal flora is the lesser evil compared to killing the host.  Frivolous use of antibiotics, however, e.g. for a cold or flu (as often is the idiotic case) would be in the same category of damaging the body unnecessarily taoists tend to object to. 

 

Of course we all are more likely than not to defend the choices we've already made in the past that are irreversible rather than own up to having made a mistake.  Easier this way.  If I had a tattoo, I'm sure I would be looking high and low for a way to prove that it's not out of line with my taoist paradigm.  If I didn't find it, however, I would just drop taoism, because the whole deal is, for me, predicated on being honest with myself.  What's the point of fooling the very person you're trying to cultivate?  

[soaring crane]

Frivolous use of antibiotics, however, e.g. for a cold or flu (as often is the idiotic case) would be in the same category of damaging the body unnecessarily taoists tend to object to. 

 

There's also the preemptive application of antibiotics in agriculture, probably the worst abuse of all.

 

I mean, speaking of damaging the body ...

[dust]

However, less obvious ones are for instance, when someone automatically puts you into the relationship-abyss because you have tattoos (the abyss being a black hole dungeon that you don't escape from; you don't ever have a chance at a relationship with that person). I'm one of those people...I wouldn't start a relationship with a woman with a tattoo sleeve or anything similar, just as a matter of principle. I'm even cautious about women with one or two small tattoos...even if they're cute or something. I view them as being very trashy and not in line with the character of person I want to be in a relationship with.

 

From this perspective, I'm glad I have visible tattoos. A person who would be so immediate and narrow in their judgement to refuse to consider a relationship with me purely because they see a tattoo is not worth my time. In fact, much better any such person not talk to me in the first place...

 

 

Also...perhaps in some cultures (Maori) they are viewed as good, and to be without them would be harmful to you and others...while in other cultures such as Chinese, they're viewed poorly and are actually harmful in those cases. Harmful to yourself, your prospects, your reputation, your family's reputation, etc.

 

Firstly: In China, it can be harmful to one's reputation and prospects not to go out and get recklessly drunk with your superiors when they demand it on a whim. Not everything that is culturally expected and 'respectable' is actually sensible, beneficial, 'good' behaviour.

 

Secondly: The genuinely free thinking person is able to identify and disregard nonsensical cultural memes (such as belief in God, or belief that tattoos are necessarily trashy). Why restrict otherwise harmless (and potentially beneficial) behaviour simply because the majority of people are unable to form individual opinions, instead relying on the rest of society to tell them what to think?

 

Thirdly: I have actually found that most Chinese are, at worst, just not particularly impressed by tattoos; in the major cities there is not the stigma that there used to be, especially among the younger generations.

[Aetherous]

From this perspective, I'm glad I have visible tattoos. A person who would be so immediate and narrow in their judgement to refuse to consider a relationship with me purely because they see a tattoo is not worth my time. In fact, much better any such person not talk to me in the first place...

 

You think certain people aren't worth your time?

 

Not saying anything about you personally, in fact I appreciate your presence on the forum, but that response just goes to show it's the type of character I don't want to be in a committed relationship with (which by the way is vastly different from every other type of relationship).

 

Hidden consequences...people judge all of the time about everything. I can't even have an opinion about who I will be with romantically, without the thought police trying to lock me up.

[dust]

Not saying anything about you personally, in fact I appreciate your presence on the forum,

 

Me too. I don't always agree with you (clearly), but that is kind of the point of a forum, isn't it?

 

 

but that response just goes to show it's the type of character I don't want to be in a committed relationship with (which by the way is vastly different from every other type of relationship).

 

Hidden consequences...people judge all of the time about everything. I can't even have an opinion about who I will be with romantically, without the thought police trying to lock me up.

 

Fully realizing how childish this sounds: You started it. You were the first to judge; my judgement is based on the fact that you would judge me (or a female version of me..!) purely based on the idea that all tattooed people are trashy.

 

In saying a woman who would judge me based on my tattoos is not worth my time, all I'm saying is that a woman who would judge so immediately, with so little other evidence, is not worth my time.

 

No?

Edited October 11, 2015 by dustybeijing

[dust]

"I'm just trying to be somebody I can talk to in the morning with a smile" (in my sig)

 

Well, I've failed for today. Sorry for being so blunt before, Aetherous. I knew I'd have to defend tattooing at some point, but I posted the thread after reading about the old Chinese tradition of not cutting hair (which lead to my recalling the train conversation about tattoos), and was equally curious about what people thought about hair cuts, not just tattooing. Alas, this seems to have turned into a "dusty defends tattoos" thread. Indeed, I confess to feeling both irritated and slightly hurt at the idea that many of you would, apparently, if we met in person in another avenue, believe me to be 'trashy'.

[Aetherous]

Don't worry, you are an enjoyable personality, and your reaction to tattoos being considered trashy by some is understandable.

[Taomeow]

.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Taomeow

[dawei]

I wouldn't start a relationship with a woman with a tattoo sleeve or anything similar, just as a matter of principle. I'm even cautious about women with one or two small tattoos...even if they're cute or something. I view them as being very trashy and not in line with the character of person I want to be in a relationship with.

 

Think what you want about me and my seemingly harsh opinions, but there are many like me. There are hidden prospects that are lost because of having tattoos. Everything in life has consequences for better or worse.

 

So they aren't worth your time?  That's what you seemed to object to DustyBeijing about...  It seems the biblical injunction of seeing the speck in your brothers eye but not log in your own may apply?

 

And to be fair to such ideas... I'd never be in a relationship with a women who likes high heels... if they love being low to the ground and wearing flats, then I feel that would be a better fit.

 

And IMO, that is what this is all about... what fits better; what works better because we know ourselves and we know that certain social queues indicate someone who might not fit well with us.

 

 

From this perspective, I'm glad I have visible tattoos. A person who would be so immediate and narrow in their judgement to refuse to consider a relationship with me purely because they see a tattoo is not worth my time. In fact, much better any such person not talk to me in the first place...

 

There is no problem with tattoos but to be proud of visible tattoos is saying something unique to your personality... maybe because you made that decision you want to honor it.

 

I've always wanted a certain tattoo... and when I told my chinese wife about that I almost became the main course at dinner 

There will always be certain prejudices about such things

 

 

Firstly: In China, it can be harmful to one's reputation and prospects not to go out and get recklessly drunk with your superiors when they demand it on a whim. Not everything that is culturally expected and 'respectable' is actually sensible, beneficial, 'good' behaviour.

 

Very true... social conditioning is like gravity as it pulls in anyone which might apply in this custom.

 

Secondly: The genuinely free thinking person is able to identify and disregard nonsensical cultural memes (such as belief in God, or belief that tattoos are necessarily trashy). Why restrict otherwise harmless (and potentially beneficial) behaviour simply because the majority of people are unable to form individual opinions, instead relying on the rest of society to tell them what to think?

 

The genuinely free thinking persons should be more realized to accept everyone has their own path and destiny and are where they are... if other's want to restrict, that is their restriction, opinion, etc.   It is a part of the ten thousand arising.

 

Thirdly: I have actually found that most Chinese are, at worst, just not particularly impressed by tattoos; in the major cities there is not the stigma that there used to be, especially among the younger generations.

 

yes... the later generations want some western insight of stuff and it is not necessarily good although it might open their thinking... but that might not be in a way the CCP likes.

[Aetherous]

So they aren't worth your time?  That's what you seemed to object to DustyBeijing about...  It seems the biblical injunction of seeing the speck in your brothers eye but not log in your own may apply?

 

It only applies regarding them potentially being in a long term monogamous relationship with me...which depends greatly upon whether there will be compatibility or not. The type of woman to get tattoos 99% of the time won't jive with my vision whatsoever...not to generalize or typecast, which I know people have an aversion to...but there is truth to what I'm saying in regard to me and my experience.

 

In any other context though, I personally strive to be a friend to all...perhaps every once in a while I think a person has done something to be undeserving of receiving goodness from me, as a knee jerk reaction...but ideally everyone is always worth my time. Just not in terms of being married to them!

 

And to be fair to such ideas... I'd never be in a relationship with a women who likes high heels... if they love being low to the ground and wearing flats, then I feel that would be a better fit.

 

And IMO, that is what this is all about... what fits better; what works better because we know ourselves and we know that certain social queues indicate someone who might not fit well with us.

 

Yup, totally.

[ilumairen]

"I'm just trying to be somebody I can talk to in the morning with a smile" (in my sig)

 

Well, I've failed for today. Sorry for being so blunt before, Aetherous. I knew I'd have to defend tattooing at some point, but I posted the thread after reading about the old Chinese tradition of not cutting hair (which lead to my recalling the train conversation about tattoos), and was equally curious about what people thought about hair cuts, not just tattooing. Alas, this seems to have turned into a "dusty defends tattoos" thread. Indeed, I confess to feeling both irritated and slightly hurt at the idea that many of you would, apparently, if we met in person in another avenue, believe me to be 'trashy'.

 

Hi dustybeijing.

 

My sister is covered in scars and tattoos - including a tattoo across her cheekbone. She is not trashy, but she is fragmented. Her inside hurts will be carried in outward form until the end of her days.

Ultimately she is still dissatisfied.

I smile at her and welcome her into my heart.

And I would still smile at you too.

 

 

 

 

 

[dust]

And I would still smile at you too.

 

Thanks..I think..

 

[leth]

Pointless, perhaps... but can't anything be said to be pointless? Surely if someone loves to do something -- colour their skin with ink, for example -- the point is that they find it pleasing?

 

I don't agree that everything can be regarded as pointless, and yes love for or being pleased by something means that it is not pointless.

 

I've spent a lot of time with tattoo artists, some of whom are fairly well-pierced. This level of modification doesn't bother me -- indeed, I love tattoos. But further than that, I have trouble understanding. Things like implants and cock rings seem a step too far, as does Hollywood-style cosmetic surgery. But that's why I'm asking the question: if surgery seems a "step too far", surely injecting ink into my skin is a "step too far"? And surely cutting away my hair and nails is a "step too far"?

 

Yes, i guess you could see it as a scale, so where do you draw the line if you are to draw a line? Or you could ask yourself why you should need any form of modification insead of just trying to appriceate the natural beauty, which i gues is the point of the taoist viewpoint of this.

 

It's not just a shell; as I see things, we are our body. There is no separation between mind and body.

 

Just because it's a shell doesn't mean it's separated from the core, in fact i would argue that the shell is connected to the core.

 

But humans have been bestowed with an aesthetic eye, an appreciation for shapes and colours, a desire to create new things. So why not apply that to ourselves?

 

Why not apply it to things as they are already? Why do we need to modify things to find them beautiful?

[ilumairen]

Thanks..I think..

 

 

Oh bother!

 

I'm sorry...

 

So, you wanna talk about breast, calf, buttock implants?

 

[dust]

I don't agree that everything can be regarded as pointless

 

I think there is a "point in", or a "value in", eating tasty & healthy food; some see no point in this, no value.

 

Things have only the point, or value, that we attach to them. Anything can be regarded as pointless by someone.

 

 

Yes, i guess you could see it as a scale, so where do you draw the line if you are to draw a line? Or you could ask yourself why you should need any form of modification insead of just trying to appriceate the natural beauty, which i gues is the point of the taoist viewpoint of this.

 

The difference, then, between me and a Taoist is that I see the actions that I take as a continuation of the natural order of things.

 

If a human modifying his physical appearance goes beyond 'nature' into the realm of the perverse, what about modifying the mind/spirit? Should we not just allow ourselves to be as we are, forget all philosophy and spiritual practice? Then isn't Taoism itself a perversion?

 

 

Why not apply it to things as they are already? Why do we need to modify things to find them beautiful?

 

Firstly: As I think I've mentioned somewhere, I find it hard to believe that a single member of this forum hasn't altered their physical appearance in any way in their lifetime. You cut and wash and brush your hair, trim your nails, wear clothes that you like the look of.. and most of this is done with factory-made tools, produced from felled trees and slaughtered animals and chemicals pumped from the recesses of the earth. Most of us listen to music, or appreciate art, or enjoy cinema, or practice exercise or cultivation of some sort. So let's not pretend that none of us have any hand in the modification and destruction of nature; let's not pretend that we sit around mesmerized by flowers and never modifying anything.

 

Secondly: I was perfectly content with my physical appearance before I had any tattoos. If tattooing didn't exist, I'd be fine. But it does exist, and I'm a fairly experimental person...

[dust]

Oh bother! I'm sorry... So, you wanna talk about breast, calf, buttock implants?

 

Sure. I'm not sure either of us will have much to say on the matter, though...?

[ilumairen]

IRL I normally don't have much to say about anything, and right now I'm sitting just beyond the reach of the raindrops on break at work, but I'll come back later...

 

[Silent Answers]

I have a fairly big tribal tatt that I had done at 15. It doesn't look really bad, but I've always wanted to upgrade it to a full sleeve...mainly because now I sort of regret that spontaneous teenage decision.

 

But...I never go ahead with it, because as a modern white guy (it's not part of my culture) who would I be doing the sleeve for? Then also there's the causing further damage to my body. This isn't for the sake of my parents, but for the community that I host. I care about them all quite a bit.

[ilumairen]

So, I have a tattoo of a Celtic knot at the base of my neck - low enough that most shirts cover it. It was many years ago...

 

I am a middle aged woman. There are large flower beds in our yard that I gave myself a hernia creating. I enjoy the flowers.

 

My thoughts have changed over the years, and don't matter much here. I wear comfortable practical clothes and shoes. I normally don't wear makeup, and have a tendency to throw my hair into ponytails.

 

Body modification just isn't much on my mind.

[dust]

There are large flower beds in our yard that I gave myself a hernia creating. I enjoy the flowers.

 

We are intentionally talking about landscape / wildlife modification, right?

 

 

My thoughts have changed over the years, and don't matter much here.

 

Don't matter to whom?

 

 

I wear comfortable practical clothes and shoes. I normally don't wear makeup, and have a tendency to throw my hair into ponytails.

 

Same here. Except for the ponytails. I am considering growing my hair out for the first time since I was 6. I own one suit, worn to both weddings and funerals (more funerals lately).

 

For some reason, though, "body modification" (pretty pictures on my skin) is still on my mind..

[dust]

But...I never go ahead with it, because as a modern white guy (it's not part of my culture) who would I be doing the sleeve for?

 

We create our own culture.

 

You live in Beijing, right? My love for tattoos developed there. It's part of my culture now.

 

I'm not saying that every white guy who lives in Beijing must love tattoos, just that having a certain skin tone should not dictate behaviour..

[ilumairen]

We are intentionally talking about landscape / wildlife modification, right?

 

Yes. The flowers bring happiness. Happiness that spreads. The birds and butterflies seem content. This week we are planting more pine trees. It is still modification of what was here - which is modification of what came before that.

 

 

 

Don't matter to whom?

 

My thoughts on this subject don't even matter to me. Haha Anything that needed resolving was resolved long ago.

 

 

 

Same here. Except for the ponytails. I am considering growing my hair out for the first time since I was 6. I own one suit, worn to both weddings and funerals (more funerals lately).

 

For some reason, though, "body modification" (pretty pictures on my skin) is still on my mind..

 

I have no issue with you painting pretty pictures on your skin. Our paths are just that - ours.

[dust]

The flowers bring happiness. Happiness that spreads. The birds and butterflies seem content. This week we are planting more pine trees. It is still modification of what was here - which is modification of what came before that.

 

I have no problem with gardening. I do suspect many here who feel that tattooing is perverse are complicit in other acts of modifying nature, and are not necessarily aware of it.

 

 

I have no issue with you painting pretty pictures on your skin. Our paths are just that - ours.

 

I should hope not!

 

 

What about your buttock implants, then?

 

[ilumairen]

I have no problem with gardening. I do suspect many here who feel that tattooing is perverse are complicit in other acts of modifying nature, and are not necessarily aware of it.

 

For some the body is temple that should be purified; for some it is a temple they wish to adorn. For some their bodies are simple vessels to be utilized and enjoyed, and for still others the body is a focus of suffering that need be modified to alleviate said suffering. There are further others who wish to utterly destroy the body to end their suffering.

 

Your questions here were answered by people with a different understanding than you. It will do you as much good to argue against their perception, as it would them to argue against yours.

 

 

 

What about your buttock implants, then?

 

 

Haha My implants!

 

 

While I have no aesthetic value implants, I do have mesh in my stomach from that hernia.

 

 

More seriously I think implants are symptomatic of deeper unease, but I have a slim, proportioned body that I have taken care of. It serves me well. And I don't know that it would be helpful to anyone (myself included) if I were to become judgemental of those who are not as comfortable with themselves.

 

 

My friend's father had a kidney transplant. He enjoys the added time with his dad.