Not damaging the body

[leth]

We can be more in tune with others when we remember. Remembering makes navigating the manifest easier and more peaceful.

 

But then there is such a thing as more or less ziran and thus the anti-ziran arises. And I think unnatural can signifiy this anti-ziran.

[ilumairen]

But then there is such a thing as more or less ziran and thus the anti-ziran arises. And I think unnatural can signifiy this anti-ziran.

 

There is no anti-ziran in my understanding; there can't be. 'Such-so-ness' is the manifest state of any/everything. Forgetting you have something is not the same as not having something. We cannot act outside of nature; it is impossible. There is ziran even without awareness of ziran. BUT awareness can/does change how our ziran manifests in any given moment. And I think this is where we are tripping over each other's words.

[Daeluin]

To me, ziran is following the heart of a momentum. In any given moment, our past momentum will determine which new direction resonates most with us, and we spontaneously follow this direction to stay in the current of this ziran. As we always follow our momentum, we are always applying ziran from some perspective.

 

When we find greater stillness and emptiness and bring wuwei into our actions, we begin to touch upon the mysterious heart of things. When we apply ziran from here, our momentum is based on remaining connected to this center.

[Daeluin]

Another copy of the daodejing arrived. One of the pages had become slightly crumpled in the mail. I turned to it and read:

 

Twenty-nine

 

Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it?

I do not believe it can be done.

 

The universe is sacred.

You cannot improve it.

If you try to change it, you will ruin it.

If you try to hold it, you will lose it.

 

So sometimes things are ahead and sometimes they are behind;

Sometimes breathing is hard, sometimes it comes easily;

Sometimes there is strength and sometimes weakness;

Sometimes one is up and sometimes down.

 

Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses, and complacency.

 

Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English

[leth]

There is no anti-ziran in my understanding; there can't be. 'Such-so-ness' is the manifest state of any/everything. Forgetting you have something is not the same as not having something. We cannot act outside of nature; it is impossible. There is ziran even without awareness of ziran. BUT awareness can/does change how our ziran manifests in any given moment. And I think this is where we are tripping over each other's words.

 

Then we can not be more or less in tune either.

[Spotless]

Dusty,

 

the filial piety interpretation of this idea may be Confucian, but the origin of it is taoist.  Many taoist schools have a prohibition on any voluntary alterations to the body and strict rules against exposure to unnecessary dangers (extreme sports or drunk driving would be in this category, but they frown even upon jogging.)  Taoists are not cowards and will do extreme things to their bodies when there's a necessity or a clear cultivational goal.  But careless handling is strongly discouraged.  It may or may not be disrespectful to parents, but the idea is that a tattoo on the body is a tattoo on the spirit, since unlike in Indo-European modalities, there's no demarcation line between one and the other.  The body is spiritual and the basis of the spirit is material; you don't want to alter that on a momentary whim and be stuck with the outcome for an eternity.  For the same reason -- body and spirit are one -- taoists don't donate organs nor accept donated organs.  (I mean real taoists, not maoists crash-trained to serve as taoists).  The practice is thought of as a form of possession.

 

I just saw an arm today freshly decorated with a huge -- outspread to half the arm -- Earlier Heaven bagua.  The recipient of the tattoo thought he's done something taoist.  In reality he's done something very strange, aside from the tattoo itself.  There's two situations in which the symbols of the Earlier and Later Heaven respectively are used as decorations -- not on the body, but on or in the houses of the living, where the Later Heaven bagua will be used -- or the tombs of the dead, where the Earlier Heaven bagua is used.  To put a decoration reserved for the dead on a living arm...  I dunno...  very bad feng shui at the very least.       

 

The flow of qi thorugh the meridians can be disrupted if the body is altered unnecessarily.  It's interesting that this is not generally the case with scars that are the result of unfortunate accidents or medical interventions -- even if a major meridian is cut, the body, in most cases, will restore it to the side of the scar and maintain it normally.  But if the scar or tattoo or implant appears due to one's own choice, the body accepts the choice, and does not attempt to restore the flow of qi in that area.  Strange but seems to make sense -- yi leads qi, if your yi, "the will of your mind," decides on cutting off its route, qi can't go against that.     

p

 

Regarding:

 

"The flow of qi thorugh the meridians can be disrupted if the body is altered unnecessarily.  It's interesting that this is not generally the case with scars that are the result of unfortunate accidents or medical interventions -- even if a major meridian is cut, the body, in most cases, will restore it to the side of the scar and maintain it normally.  But if the scar or tattoo or implant appears due to one's own choice, the body accepts the choice, and does not attempt to restore the flow of qi in that area.  Strange but seems to make sense -- yi leads qi, if your yi, "the will of your mind," decides on cutting off its route, qi can't go against that.     "

 

It would be easy to re-rout / restore this if done consciously - meaning that the body will also accept the choice that you wish the meridian to be restored. It is apparently the case as you point out that the body takes the conscious decision to alter the body as a signal to stop natural Qi flow in that area. The body will also listen to the desire that the Qi flow in those areas be restored.

[ilumairen]

Then we can not be more or less in tune either.

 

Yes and no. We think alot. We imagine things. We project and question and wonder. And sometimes we create the illusion of seperation. And sometimes we add so much mind weight to our illusions of seperation that they become the such so that we tell ourselves we are.

 

*********

 

What I like to call forgetting is really a too much remembering.

[Daeluin]

Then we can not be more or less in tune either.

 

Are two roads in opposition to each other, simply because they travel different ways?

[leth]

Yes and no. We think alot. We imagine things. We project and question and wonder. And sometimes we create the illusion of seperation. And sometimes we add so much mind weight to our illusions of seperation that they become the such so that we tell ourselves we are. ********* What I like to call forgetting is really a too much remembering.

 

You can't both have the cake and eat it.

[leth]

Are two roads in opposition to each other, simply because they travel different ways?

 

No. But when there is Yin there is also Yang, when there is Yang there is also Yin.

[Daeluin]

Then ziran is also anti-ziran, and anti-ziran is also ziran.

[Daeluin]

I have a hard time accepting that you can be more or less of something without that thing having an opposite.

 

Everything is relative to something else, so all things have opposites from some perspective... unless.... we describe all things as relative to dao. When all ziran's relate to how close they are to the root of dao, we can try to distinguish them as such.

 

Ziran is simply a type of flow.... anti flow is still flow, we're just shifting perspectives... how do we determine what perspective is appropriate? Perhaps the best perspective is from the root... but from there all things are flowing away towards some perspective of unnaturalness.

 

If you have a circle of people... then some more people come and try to join in, perhaps the roundness of the circle becomes malformed. Are these people having an anti-natural effect on the circle? Only if we attach to the circle needing to be as it was before, yet why would we do this and not simply adapt to make the circle round again?

 

Here we may be able to observe that human-nature is creating a malformed circle, and yet the naturalness we attach to is already behind us, and fighting the present malformity, we just maintain it through opposition.... so the answer is usually just to walk in the direction we can walk that makes it more round.

 

When all zirans are focused on the root of things, then they all nurture the whole without struggling against each other's momentums. Death and life revolving in harmony without stagnation. When some zirans are revolving around economics, survival, creativity, etc.... perhaps some of them will conflict with others, yet that is only because their focal points are disconnected from the one-ness of things. Yet if we are connected to this one-ness we can still merge and adapt with and "make more round" any of them.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Daeluin

[leth]

Everything is relative to something else, so all things have opposites from some perspective... unless.... we describe all things as relative to dao. When all ziran's relate to how close they are to the root of dao, we can try to distinguish them as such.

 

We think of things as related to something, that is an inherent part of our logic. But whether this is ontologically true is another question.

 

Ziran is simply a type of flow.... anti flow is still flow, we're just shifting perspectives... how do we determine what perspective is appropriate? Perhaps the best perspective is from the root... but from there all things are flowing away towards some perspective of unnaturalness.

 

Anti-flow is inherently not flow. If it is the same then they are not different and then neither exists.

But they are the same in the sense that the are polarities of the same thing, and this means that they are opposites.

Pointing out that the negation of something is the same thing as that which it negates only confirms that they are opposites.

 

If you have a circle of people... then some more people come and try to join in, perhaps the roundness of the circle becomes malformed. Are these people having an anti-natural effect on the circle? Only if we attach to the circle needing to be as it was before, yet why would we do this and not simply adapt to make the circle round again?

 

What is the nature of a circle?

 

Here we may be able to observe that human-nature is creating a malformed circle, and yet the naturalness we attach to is already behind us, and fighting the present malformity, we just maintain it through opposition.... so the answer is usually just to walk in the direction we can walk that makes it more round.

 

Now you're talking about the nature of humans and not the nature of circles.

 

Also you seem to suggest the existance of naturallness and unnaturallness here.

 

When all zirans are focused on the root of things, then they all nurture the whole without struggling against each other's momentums. Death and life revolving in harmony without stagnation. When some zirans are revolving around economics, survival, creativity, etc.... perhaps some of them will conflict with others, yet that is only because their focal points are disconnected from the one-ness of things. Yet if we are connected to this one-ness we can still merge and adapt with and "make more round" any of them.

 

Zirans means whats in this context?

[Daeluin]

We think of things as related to something, that is an inherent part of our logic. But whether this is ontologically true is another question.

 

Then maybe you'll have fun with this.

 

Anti-flow is inherently not flow.

 

OK I was thinking anti as reverse. Reverse flow is still flow.

 

If it is the same then they are not different and then neither exists.

 

By same, I mean that drains may flow in reverse spirals in the northern and southern hemispheres, and yet this is only reverse from one perspective. From another they are matching each other and helping to contain the center from different positions.

 

But they are the same in the sense that the are polarities of the same thing, and this means that they are opposites.

Pointing out that the negation of something is the same thing as that which it negates only confirms that they are opposites.

 

So I feel you are meaning the polarity of flow and not flow.... but what is there that doesn't flow, at least through space and time?

 

Have you read chapter 16 of the daodejing? There it speaks of finding the changeless within the change. This changeless is not stagnation; some might call it home.

 

Things may appear to stagnate from one perspective, but if you study a swamp, you begin to realize that it flows very slowly, and this slowness has a profound filtering and clarifying function. Even when things appear completely stagnant, are they really? Even black holes emit something out the other end. When yin culminates, yang is born, and this too is flow.

 

Zhuangzi's cook doesn't waver when he comes to a cluster of knots - he surrenders to the flow, allows heavenly knowledge to adjust his pace, and before his eyes what appeared impassible has become spacious, easily maneuvered through without conflict.

 

What is the nature of a circle?

 

Connection and balance. A perfect circle is perfect because every part is informed and guided by every other part. The part that becomes bent or oblong isn't listening to the guidance of the other parts, and strays away from the greatest potential for balance.

 

In taiji quan, one learns to feel the myriad circles spirialing through the body. They are everywhere, from every perspective. Vibration is simply a spiral that continues through time and space.

 

Now you're talking about the nature of humans and not the nature of circles.

 

Yes, I brought up circles because of how well they can be used to identify balance. Human-nature also works toward balance in so many ways. It just happens to be disconnected with other paradigms of balance.

 

Also you seem to suggest the existance of naturallness and unnaturallness here.

 

I am suggesting that everything is natural from some perspective and unnatural from some perspective. Further, I suggested that we can adapt to any of them by choosing to flow with the circularity one particular paradigm is revolving around.

 

If one is running a business, what point is there if one goes against the nature of running a business. If one tries to sell nuts to squirrels that might not work so well. If one tries to give away nuts to humans, that might not work so well... but if one understands the nature of buying and selling that humans have come up with, then one can flow with that nature. This nature might not be completely circular or balanced, but it is still round in its own way.

 

Further, if one cultivates and discovers dao, one can flow with dao and nurture deeply refined balance and circularity that does not go against anything else. The more refined one becomes, the more difficult it is for coarser energies to control the more refined energies. This is how we can see the essence dao manifested in all things unconditionally.

 

Zirans means whats in this context?

 

Please refer to above, and to my earlier post:

 

To me, ziran is following the heart of a momentum. In any given moment, our past momentum will determine which new direction resonates most with us, and we spontaneously follow this direction to stay in the current of this ziran. As we always follow our momentum, we are always applying ziran from some perspective.

 

When we find greater stillness and emptiness and bring wuwei into our actions, we begin to touch upon the mysterious heart of things. When we apply ziran from here, our momentum is based on remaining connected to this center.

 

So there is only one context for ziran, and that is flowing with momentum. One spontaneously follows what resonates most, following the course that will lead one to what is similar to what one is following. One may place it in different contexts, but does its operation really change?

 

Thus the course of ziran is different for different things. It seems to be used in the context of navigating one's way at higher levels of cultivation, as the means by which one knows where to go, even without acting. Yet, (and perhaps my read of this is off), I feel the principle described by this is already present everywhere, as all types of beings navigate by following the course that leads them to their desired goals. It is the stillness, cultivation, and application of wuwei where ziran allows one to remain whole and in connection to the dao without losing what one has cultivated, turned within even while appearing to act.

 

I hope this helps.... this perspective feels good to me, but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Daeluin

[leth]

Then maybe you'll have fun with this.

 

I often return to that part of Zhuangzi, I've read it many times and I quite like it, but lately i have not had many epiphanies when reading it and I tend to look elsewhere because I like epiphanies when I read. And Ziporyn's translation has been my favourite as of late.

 

OK I was thinking anti as reverse. Reverse flow is still flow.

 

Sure, but revers flow is just another direction. it's not the same thing as the opposite of flow.

 

By same, I mean that drains may flow in reverse spirals in the northern and southern hemispheres, and yet this is only reverse from one perspective. From another they are matching each other and helping to contain the center from different positions.

 

Sure, here the directions are the opposites and the flow itself is not a part of that polarity. so in the sense of direction there is opposities in terms of directions, ecause if we have one direction then we must also have the opposite direction.

 

So I feel you are meaning the polarity of flow and not flow.... but what is there that doesn't flow, at least through space and time?

 

What is there that flows?

A stream of water flows but a rock stays still on the ground. A tiny pebble can flow down a mountains side while the mountain stays still. It is always a matter of perspective and context. We use this opposites to analyse reality and it is curcial to understand how dualisms works. You can't claim that a polarity in one aspect can be said to inherently have that polarity, it is only a polarity in the context of which that polarity is defined.

 

Thus flow is opposite to stillness if we are talking about flow from an external perspective, but if we are talking about the qualities of flow then we can't talk about it as an opposite of stillness anymore, but rather must look at what the opposite of that quality is instead.

 

The power of Yin-Yang theory is really this understanding of how dualisms work and how they are only applicable to the context of where the separation is made.

 

And I interprete that part from Zhuangzi that you quoted in the post you refered to actually point this out.

 

Have you read chapter 16 of the daodejing? There it speaks of finding the changeless within the change. This changeless is not stagnation; some might call it home.

 

Yes, though i don't interprete it as to finding the changless within the change.

 

Things may appear to stagnate from one perspective, but if you study a swamp, you begin to realize that it flows very slowly, and this slowness has a profound filtering and clarifying function. Even when things appear completely stagnant, are they really? Even black holes emit something out the other end. When yin culminates, yang is born, and this too is flow.

 

Yes such is the nature of things.

 

Everything in reality seems relative to something, and we interprete this reality as a complex of dualisms. And there is always Yin in Yang as there is always Yang in Tin. As there is no stillness there is no absolute flow either. There is just more or less flow and stillness. But in our mind there is such a thing as flow, and thus there is a such a thing as stillness in our mind aswell. And it is this way that we interprete the various forms of what is neither emptiness or form, that has neither flow or stillness.

 

Zhuangzi's cook doesn't waver when he comes to a cluster of knots - he surrenders to the flow, allows heavenly knowledge to adjust his pace, and before his eyes what appeared impassible has become spacious, easily maneuvered through without conflict.

 

Yes. But I fail to see what this has to do with Yin-Yang theory.

 

Connection and balance. A perfect circle is perfect because every part is informed and guided by every other part. The part that becomes bent or oblong isn't listening to the guidance of the other parts, and strays away from the greatest potential for balance.

 

A circle is simply a circle, it has no other inherent qualities. If you call a circle perfect it is perfect if you call it imperfect it is imperfect. If there is such a thing as an perfect circle then there is such a thing as an imperfect circle.

 

In taiji quan, one learns to feel the myriad circles spirialing through the body. They are everywhere, from every perspective. Vibration is simply a spiral that continues through time and space.

 

If there is vibration then surely there is stillness.

 

Yes, I brought up circles because of how well they can be used to identify balance. Human-nature also works toward balance in so many ways. It just happens to be disconnected with other paradigms of balance.

 

 

 

 

I am suggesting that everything is natural from some perspective and unnatural from some perspective. Further, I suggested that we can adapt to any of them by choosing to flow with the circularity one particular paradigm is revolving around.

 

Sure, it is always about perspective and context, such is our logic. But the concept of natural and unaturall only exists in our logic and is inherently a matter of perspective.

 

Please refer to above, and to my earlier post:

 

What is the difference between a flow and Ziran?

 

So there is only one context for ziran, and that is flowing with momentum. One spontaneously follows what resonates most, following the

course that will lead one to what is similar to what one is following. One may place it in different contexts, but does its operation really change?

 

I disagree. Ziran is about attaining constant wu wei wu in accord to De. It is not flow it is flow without flow, it is not following it is following without following, it is not resonating it is resonating without resonating.

 

Thus the course of ziran is different for different things. It seems to be used in the context of navigating one's way at higher levels of cultivation, as the means by which one knows where to go, even without acting. Yet, (and perhaps my read of this is off), I feel the principle described by this is already present everywhere, as all types of beings navigate by following the course that leads them to their desired goals. It is the stillness, cultivation, and application of wuwei where ziran allows one to remain whole and in connection to the dao without losing what one has cultivated, turned within even while appearing to act.

 

Ziran is the same for all things. But Ziran manifests differently for different things.

 

I hope this helps.... this perspective feels good to me, but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.

 

I don't fully understand what you mean, there seems to be inconcistancies in that which I interprete, perhaps I misunderstand you.

[Daeluin]

Hi leth, thank you for your reply.

 

I often return to that part of Zhuangzi, I've read it many times and I quite like it, but lately i have not had many epiphanies when reading it and I tend to look elsewhere because I like epiphanies when I read. And Ziporyn's translation has been my favourite as of late.

 

 

Sure, but revers flow is just another direction. it's not the same thing as the opposite of flow.

 

 

Sure, here the directions are the opposites and the flow itself is not a part of that polarity. so in the sense of direction there is opposities in terms of directions, ecause if we have one direction then we must also have the opposite direction.

 

Just for clarification, as I interpret a ziran as a principle related to flow, I used "anti-flow" as an analogy to help explore "anti-ziran."

 

Your description of anti-ziran gave me the sense of something working against the description of ziran you give: Ziran is about attaining constant wu wei wu in accord to De. It is not flow it is flow without flow, it is not following it is following without following, it is not resonating it is resonating without resonating.

 

From this description I have trouble identifying how something could inhibit this, and this is what brought up the idea of reverse flow. Even though it is the direction of things that are opposing, that is enough for both momentums to negate each other. I wonder though, is it possible for one person to judge how centered in ziran another person is, without leaving one's own ziran?

 

There are those who in their dying moments finally realize they've done nothing with their lives. And yet how could they have come so far without some form of constant flow without flowing, following without following, at some level? We arrive in many places just by letting the current take us there.

 

 

So I feel you are meaning the polarity of flow and not flow.... but what is there that doesn't flow, at least through space and time?

 

 

What is there that flows?

A stream of water flows but a rock stays still on the ground. A tiny pebble can flow down a mountains side while the mountain stays still. It is always a matter of perspective and context. We use this opposites to analyse reality and it is curcial to understand how dualisms works. You can't claim that a polarity in one aspect can be said to inherently have that polarity, it is only a polarity in the context of which that polarity is defined.

 

Thus flow is opposite to stillness if we are talking about flow from an external perspective, but if we are talking about the qualities of flow then we can't talk about it as an opposite of stillness anymore, but rather must look at what the opposite of that quality is instead.

 

The power of Yin-Yang theory is really this understanding of how dualisms work and how they are only applicable to the context of where the separation is made.

 

And I interprete that part from Zhuangzi that you quoted in the post you refered to actually point this out.

 

Hehehe.... please, do not be mistaken. I can claim anything at all, and it would be true from some perspective, because the heart of things is everywhere.

 

What I was getting at here is that your mountain is not truly still. If you trace the path of it's momentum through space and time for a year, it will look like a circle from two perspectives, a line from some perspectives, and a spiral from many other perspectives. If you trace its momentum for many years you will have a coil, or spring-like momentum, that might look like a frequency wave from some perspectives. When tracing its momentum over the ages, I can imagine many changes.

 

All things are like this. And, while the movement and stillness of all things may be compared relative to all perspectives, if we step back far enough we can see that all things share a common root. This heart of things is said to exist everywhere and nowhere all at once, and, by this principle, it is easy to sense the dao just behind the surface anywhere we look. I believe by treating things as relative to this root that we can become a little more free from the relative nature of changing perspectives.

 

 

Have you read chapter 16 of the daodejing? There it speaks of finding the changeless within the change. This changeless is not stagnation; some might call it home.

 

 

 

Yes, though i don't interprete it as to finding the changless within the change.

 

 

To quiet down the heart to stay at a constant stillness,

To settle down the heart to remain in infinite emptiness,

All the myriad things are involved in constant motion, but I just gaze

into emptiness to unintentionally wait for the coming of the Mysterious Pass.

Yes, though all things flourish with myriad variations,

each one will eventually return to the very root of birth and death.

To return to the root needs constant stillness.

Only by staying in constant stillness can Congenital Nature be recovered.

To fully recover Congenital Nature is called Chang.

To know Chang is called enlightenment.

To not know Chang and to act blindly will result in disaster.

Only knowing Chang, can one tolerate all,

Only tolerating all, can on be impartial.

By being impartial, can one be all-accommodating,

By being all-accommodating, one can equal Heaven,

By equaling Heaven, one can accomplish Tao, which lasts without death.

Only by accomplishing Tao, can one be rid of death and birth,

lasting eternally without any danger.

 

tl: Hu Xuezhi

 

The translator comments here: Chang is a term Lao Tzi uses to describe the principle and rule.

And there is a thread about Chang here. Often I see it translated as "the constant", and I like to think of it as the changeless, or perhaps the heart of change.

 

Yes such is the nature of things.

 

Everything in reality seems relative to something, and we interprete this reality as a complex of dualisms. And there is always Yin in Yang as there is always Yang in Tin. As there is no stillness there is no absolute flow either. There is just more or less flow and stillness. But in our mind there is such a thing as flow, and thus there is a such a thing as stillness in our mind aswell. And it is this way that we interprete the various forms of what is neither emptiness or form, that has neither flow or stillness.

 

Well if we can agree that there is a heart of things, a root, a center, a unity, etc.... then perhaps we can agree, along with chapter 16, that there is an absolute stillness, a changeless at the heart of the changing: a constant. As far as an absolute flow, it would be marked by the moment when the source of momentum is insufficient to produce additional outward momentum. Without a source for expansion of the universe, the expansion would reach its peak.

 

 

Zhuangzi's cook doesn't waver when he comes to a cluster of knots - he surrenders to the flow, allows heavenly knowledge to adjust his pace, and before his eyes what appeared impassible has become spacious, easily maneuvered through without conflict.

 

Yes. But I fail to see what this has to do with Yin-Yang theory.

 

Oh, this was the last of four paragraphs in a section describing the nature of flow. But what doesn't relate to Yin-Yang theory?

 

 

 

What is the nature of a circle?

 

Connection and balance. A perfect circle is perfect because every part is informed and guided by every other part. The part that becomes bent or oblong isn't listening to the guidance of the other parts, and strays away from the greatest potential for balance.

 

 

A circle is simply a circle, it has no other inherent qualities. If you call a circle perfect it is perfect if you call it imperfect it is imperfect. If there is such a thing as an perfect circle then there is such a thing as an imperfect circle.

 

Well lets look back at the momentum of that mountain. Or just pick any point on the Earth, the earth itself, the moon, or any planetary body, etc, etc. Following them over time they make circles. These circles are not quite mathematically perfect, but they are ever mutually adjusting to the cycling of all the other planetary bodies orbiting our sun, and our sun is in a similar dance revolving around the galaxy.

 

Neidan texts emphasize study of these cycles, and study of the nature of circles, because their principles expose the mechanism behind the changing momentum of our internal energy. Without merging with the present cycles, all layers of them, it may be possible to reach the emptiness, but if the energetic momentum lacks adequate timing, it might not want to unify inside the emptiness.

 

It is said the numerics of creation are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the numerics of completion are 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. After this things repeat, and every repetition is merely a new layer of manifestation in some way. Creation to completion follows a cycle - a circle - and we can easily look at this in terms of yin and yang through the sovereign hexagrams. At the culmination of yin, the seed of yang arises from the bottom to fill up, and at the culmination of yang the seed of yin rises from the bottom to empty out. This is symbolism for the changes within a cycle, and we can see it in night and day, the waxing and waning of the moon and the seasons, and the breath, etc.

 

A circle can be broken down into five parts - a beginning, a culmination, a settling, and a return. Again, the shape of this circle is defined by the center. We can study five-element theory to understand the delicate balance of creation and controlling factors. The medicinal aspect of this examines how the organ systems of the body are in cyclical balance with each other, and if one is too strong, it likely will weaken another part of the system, especially during months of the seasonal cycle when the monthly energy will strengthen that which is already strong and weaken that which is already weak.

 

So we have our principles of a cycle, and we can see that cycles continue on and on. The more they cycle and interact, the more layers are created. Right now we're on the layer of earth, which has a layer of seasons, of day and night, etc, and within that we have our human layer with its organs and meridian layers, etc, etc. We know that the cycles of these layers indicate how to be balanced and centered within their changes, and we know that the more layers we become out of balance with the more severely our health can be effected.

 

In terms of being more or less ziran, which is related to balance and centeredness, we might infer that the more we are able to achieve a refined balance within the cycles of all the layers we find ourselves being influenced by, the closer we might become to the change at the heart of the changeless, and truly flow with the ziran you describe.

 

If there is vibration then surely there is stillness.

 

 

I am suggesting that everything is natural from some perspective and unnatural from some perspective. Further, I suggested that we can adapt to any of them by choosing to flow with the circularity one particular paradigm is revolving around.

 

 

Sure, it is always about perspective and context, such is our logic. But the concept of natural and unaturall only exists in our logic and is inherently a matter of perspective.

 

Yes. And this is why I feel sages are very careful to avoid describing rules, but instead describe principles. As long as one holds the heart of a principle, it can be adapted so that anyone can hear it, if the words reach them in the right way.

 

Many daoist texts aren't simply speaking of philosophy, but of how specific principles may be used to affect change within a particular phase in a cycle. In particular, some internal alchemy texts speak of substances, and there are many names for these substances. However these substances are often the same substance called many different names depending on what phase and layer it is bound by. The same principles are used to unwind and integrate these substance back to true unity, and at each layer the same principles are utilized as needed.

 

Thus wu wei is not something absolute, but a principle that is applied at many different layers - it has its place within the winding and unwinding of each cycle. We can feel it operating in every heart beat and every breath. The principle is understood by the layers it centers around.

 

What is the difference between a flow and Ziran?

 

So, I feel the principle of ziran can be seen in operation at all layers The flow of ziran is be shaped by the heart of that layer and how aligned it is to the heart of all.

 

I disagree. Ziran is about attaining constant wu wei wu in accord to De. It is not flow it is flow without flow, it is not following it is following without following, it is not resonating it is resonating without resonating.

 

Many believe there are some elite few masterminds at the heart of an extensive human empire, directing its every move. But I feel the reality is more that an empire is a very vast and complex system, with its own cycle-ings and momentum. Many people's lives revolve around the center of these systems, and by following the standard best practices (the nature of) that system, people are able to preserve their health and well-being. The momentum of many people's lives often get guided and shaped from beginning to end just by this one extensive layer (and all the layers it contains), and their life can flow without flowing, follow without following, their de matching and in harmony with the layer they are most attuned to.

 

When a person places their sincere intention on flowing where guided within the parameters of a given layer, I still recogznize this as the operation of the principle of ziran, even if they don't appear to connect their operation of the principle of ziran to deeper layers. Even if the overall momentum of an empire is at odds with the balance of everything supporting it, and the direction of one ziran flows counter to another - even if this operation is clearly parasitic, cancerous, demonic - how can we know that it is not a balanced component in a larger paradigm?

 

Even though things around us may appear deviant to naturalness, and even though we cannot judge them, for they may be part of some other balance, we may still achieve our own deeper balance by learning to see deeper into the heart of things.

 

Ziran is the same for all things. But Ziran manifests differently for different things.

 

I agree. The same principle, with different operations at different phases.

 

I don't fully understand what you mean, there seems to be inconcistancies in that which I interprete, perhaps I misunderstand you.

 

Perhaps this will help with understanding my present perspective better. In any case I appreciate your perspective too, and it has been enjoyable to share with you in this discussion.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Daeluin

[Rara]

I'm sensing some general aversion to tattoos so far...

 

What about cutting hair? Is that not 'damage'?

 

Isn't any hairstyle, any attempt to groom oneself, simply an attempt to make oneself look better? Cooler? What, then, about washing??

Monks have a cool image too XD

 

Supposedly it means nothing. Why the need to grow hair, cool beards and wear those robes and hats then? I guess it's a necessary sign post so that outsiders know who they're talking to.